Power to the...Gamers?

[Chairman Miaow]

I really hate that entitled is used as a derogatory remark. Gamers [bold]ARE[/bold] entitled to a good, working product that fulfils what the developers promised. They are also entitled to having the developers treat them like they are actually people rather than retarded insect creatures.

 

[Xirath]

Similarly, you can vote with your wallet and refuse to buy the next BioWare game, but once again you're left without a proper alternative. There are other similar games, certainly, but you won't find something that's close enough to be considered "the same".

Such is the nature of the entertainment industry. It's harder to pretend that we can get the same thing at a lower price or of higher quality elsewhere.

First off this is how a value analysis works. You decide if the costs of what you are getting are worth the personal perceived value of the product or service.

that being said... "Similarly, you can vote with your wallet and refuse to buy the next BioWare game, but once again you're left without a proper alternative. There are other similar games, certainly, but you won't find something that's close enough to be considered "the same"." effectively distills down to a small child whining "BUT I WANT IT!" and you don't see how that is the very essence and definition feeling entitled?

you want to vote with your wallet by not buying from them but still get to play their game, but as the old saying goes, you cant have your cake and eat it too.

 

[JediMB]

But that's just the thing; if you think what you get is worth what you pay, then everything is absolutely peachy. If you think your Live membership is worth what you pay each month, then we don't have a problem to begin with! There is no reason whatsoever for them to charge any less than that if you think it's worth what you pay for it, and if you're paying then that means with 100% certainty that you think it is.

You're talking about alternatives, but nothing says you have the right to a cheaper alternative, or indeed any alternative at all. If you want to play Dragon Age, but you think there's something wrong with Dragon Age, then you don't have the right to get an identical product, without the flaw, made personally for you. You don't have the right to play the exact game that you want, made to all your specs. You have the right to play what you pay for, and if you pay for it then that means that you think you're getting your money's worth every time.

First off this is how a value analysis works. You decide if the costs of what you are getting are worth the personal perceived value of the product or service.

that being said... "Similarly, you can vote with your wallet and refuse to buy the next BioWare game, but once again you're left without a proper alternative. There are other similar games, certainly, but you won't find something that's close enough to be considered "the same"." effectively distills down to a small child whining "BUT I WANT IT!" and you don't see how that is the very essence and definition feeling entitled?

you want to vote with your wallet by not buying from them but still get to play their game, but as the old saying goes, you cant have your cake and eat it too.

It would seem most people replying didn't get what I was trying to say...

I wasn't complaining about the differences between the entertainment industry and more traditional markets; I was simply trying to elaborate on the inherent differences between them. Those differences come with both good and bad from a consumer's perspective.

I also tried to show at the end of my post that we are (for some reason) more discerning with our entertainment (supposed luxury products) than we are likely to be with more base needs. Probably because we engage with the products/services on an almost purely intellectual and emotional level, rather than on a practical physical level. This gives our entertainment identity on a level comparable to actual human beings close to us, I think.

I made the argument about Xbox Live, but personally I've never even owned an Xbox. I was just trying to state the facts of the situation and highlight the differences between the video game market and even other entertainment markets. There are a lot more restrictions (both necessary and artificial) in place for video games due to their digital, interactive and ever-evolving natures.

 

[JediMB]

we arnt demanding anything, we are begging

They're the same thing, really. Your word of choice just shows your confidence, I think.

Either confidence in yourself, your cause, or in the people you're reaching out to.

 

[Anti Nudist Cupcake]

And no gaming is not a service, or a hybrid of a product/service. It is a straight up product.

What about online mmorpgs like Word of Warcraft or Star Wars The Old Republic? You pay a monthly fee to participate in playing the game, sounds like a service to me.

 

[beniki]

Well here's the thing.

Stop playing games.

Shocking idea I know, and akin to giving up the fight, but if you don't like something then stop buying it. Frankly, these days I'm so confused about what I'm actually spending money on, I refuse to pay for games any more. I'm sticking to Free-to-play games. True, most of them are bug ridden shit, but at least it didn't cost me anything.

There's only one exception to my rule, and that's Eve. Out of all the developers in the world, they're the only ones who haven't shafted me, or made me pissed off, or flat out region blocked me from playing the game.

So there you have it. One less consumer for the guys trying to screw me over. Doesn't mean a damn thing really, but at least I have a bit more cash to spend on other toys and luxuries.

 

[AngleWyrm]

If they're an art, then sit the fuck down, and stop acting like a whiny, tantrum throwing crybaby.

By "sit the fuck down" you mean "buy someone else's stuff instead."

Which is really the only thing this discussion has been about. You did hear about EA being up for sale, didn't you?

 

[Kahunaburger]

They can't be both.

Sure they can. Most books are products, and you don't see anyone talking about how the existence of bookstores means that books are not an artistic medium.

 

[Zipa]

I wouldn't worry about it, it seems to be the hip thing nowadays to rag on EA/Bioware especially if you didn't actually buy their game(s).

 

[Apollo45]

Of course, the image is flawed. Video Games isn't a service like arestaurant is. Video Games have a very special definition. They are a fusion of service and product. They are different from buying a table, which is a product. But they are also different from going to a restaurant, which is a service. But it still shares many common things with both.

I think this is the key point of the discussion: what people consider video-games. Many (including myself) consider video-games a product, not a service. So, when people complain about video-games as a service, those who consider it a product don't understand. They argue and, as things tend to go on the internet, it starts flame wars. I actually think this is the whole reason behind the ME3 debate: those who consider it a service feel it was a bad service and demand reparation (like one gets in other services), and those who feel it is a product generally think that view is silly. Really makes you think, huh?

Not particularly. Whether it's a product or a service, we as consumers should be able to voice our concerns and either get it fixed or return said product/service for a full refund. Likewise, the company behind the product/service should listen to our complaints and fix things, either now or in the future, or risk going out of business. The problem with it is that it can go either way, and the companies tend to use excuses from one side to get out of issues with the other side. For example, the "artistic integrity" argument holds up if it's a service - they can do what they want because there's a point to it, and if you don't like it you can take your business elsewhere - but not if it's a product, where they should be reading complaints as "this is defective" and responding either "alright, let's fix it" or "return it for a full refund." On the other hand, with a service you tend to pay at the end of the exchange. Restaurants typically have you pay at the end, taxi cabs have you pay at the end, and so on. If you're not satisfied you have the ability to argue what you pay for the service you got. In this case, that doesn't happen.

Video games also differ significantly from other products because you're never quite sure what you're going to get out of them. When you go out and purchase a car you can test drive it, see what it can do. You can get a history report if it's used, or a warranty if it isn't. You get the specs right out front and if anything in the car is different from those specs, or different from what you've been told, you can do something about it. With video games you buy the product before you're ever sure what's going to be in it. For other products like that you've typically got reviewers out there who will tell you if it's good or not (movies, books, etc), but it's become increasingly obvious that game journalists aren't exactly the most objective people in the world, and are often forced to give good reviews to mediocre games because otherwise they won't get "exclusives" in the future.

Games do tend to be more product than service, but the way they're treated blurs that line, and developers take advantage of that by screwing us over more often than not. And that's a real issue that needs to be fixed before the industry can progress much further, or else it's just going to collapse on itself.

On another note, however, service or product, the ending of Mass Effect 3 was horrendous.

 

[LarenzoAOG]

I rather liked Mass Effect 3, and most EA games I play. Were there stupid things like Origin involved? Yes. Do they spew out DLC so they can soak up as much money as they can the little whores they are? Yes. Do our expectations of the product/service often grossly outweigh what we actually get out of it? Yes.

But the way I see it EA would be out of buisness if they weren't at least compotent at what they do, and hell, sometimes they even do a good job. I can overlook small things like day 1 DLC, Origin, bugs, shitty ending, etc. as unfair as they may seem they are often a minor complaints that I can overlook because I enjoy playing their video games.

I do think entitlement is and isn't the right word, I do believe that if people are offering you money for something you should do your utmost to not make it shit, but I also personally believe that if you pay for something believing it will be all sunshine and happiness and some part of it doesn't meet your expectations then you get to eat shit, you probably should realize even the best things in life have aspects that are completley terrible, I love roller coaster, sometimes I end up in a position where I will land on my own testicles at the end of a down part though, that doesn't mean that all roller coasters are terrible and I should demand the contractor that made the roller coaster should retrofit the roller coaster with seats that prevent injury to genitalia, and fuck that was a terrible metaphor and I've completly lost you now haven't I?

Basically: Company needs to make good product. Consumer needs to reel in unrealistic expectations.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

I dont see why having a promlem with ME3 ending makes me entitled

because its FIXABLE

A. lets say we all did nothing...what would happen then? nothing. No annoying threads, nothing, the game stays "ruined" we stay unhappy and what was suposed to be somthing awsome remains a great big anticlimactic mess

the world goes on

B. or we rage....what happens? well in this case the developers throw us a bone..its not much, but its SOMTHING, its a chance to fix ME3...so we annoyed a few people along the way? well I dont care if you got a little annoyed over a few ME3 threads (just like you dont care about ME3..fine by me)...we arnt demanding anything, we are begging, because Bioware didnt have to do a godamn thing, they could have said "whats done is done" and that owuld be the end of it

granted the damage may already be done...salavaging this mess seems an impossible task and many have sworn off Bioware/mass effect forever

not me though, even if it is "all said and done" I still like Mass effect, I still am interestedin Bioware games

I dont want be unhappy or angry with Mass effect....so I'm not

entirely this.

not to mention, as you pointed out, we aren't DEMANDING anything, are we going to bioware's headquarters and holding them at gunpoint? HELL NO. we are simply expressing our concern's in a very assertive manner, to make sure they know we "mean seriusss buzinezz" about it, rather than it's a "oh that's nice, we'll think about that for the NEXT game".

this shit is fixable, sometimes things are not, there is next to no downside to this, rather than showing EA that we do have this thing called a "middle finger", and customers know how to point it at companies when they call us entitled little shits.

 

[Atmos Duality]

And no gaming is not a service, or a hybrid of a product/service. It is a straight up product.

They're migrating to proprietary service-platforms, whether you think they're products or not.

The VERY common mistake people make when discussing any sort of digital/information good is that they assume because it was marketed as a product, is a product. Legally, this is a misconception (at least in the United States; your mileage may vary).

This is a byproduct of the practical necessity for retail distribution gaming used for the last 30 years. Legally, you don't "own" a damn thing on that disc. You own a license to use their software which they can revoke at any time for damn near any reason.

However, there is a reason the Publishers can't just barge into your home and take your games away when they feel you've had enough fun or have done something they don't like: The issue of enforcement.

But now, with these new online systems (which is nothing more than DRM), they firmly place the legal AND practical boundaries of their games under their control, turning them into full-fledged services. It's an ugly truth.

In the United States, you can thank Blizzard and Autodesk for getting all the legal precedents established so that this is possible. What's most disturbing is the decided lack of consumers' rights in regards to these service agreements.

There is very little you can do if they just decide to terminate your account without notice besides a civil suit; at which point they just bleed you out in court until you settle.

 

[Vault101]

entirely this.

not to mention, as you pointed out, we aren't DEMANDING anything, are we going to bioware's headquarters and holding them at gunpoint? HELL NO. we are simply expressing our concern's in a very assertive manner, to make sure they know we "mean seriusss buzinezz" about it, rather than it's a "oh that's nice, we'll think about that for the NEXT game".

this shit is fixable, sometimes things are not, there is next to no downside to this, rather than showing EA that we do have this thing called a "middle finger", and customers know how to point it at companies when they call us entitled little shits.

I also wonder if the people at Bioware have realised this whole thing may have been more damaging than just a bad ending

I think Mass Effect 3 was the final nial in the coffin for some people...granted this is probably a case of "vocal minority" but the bad PR certainly isnt good

its like if Bioware is shepard and EA is cererbus

*sigh* if only I was a wealthy underground crime figure..I could have gottn this fixed "Mr Hudson?, I'd like to have a word with you..I am....[i/]dissapointed[/i]

 

[Meight08]

Gamers on the other hand want people to take games seriously, then throw a raging crybaby hissy fit when something doesn't go their way. Gamers, or at least the very vocal gamers that set the reputation for the rest, have yet to grow up and realise that an Action RPG trilogy having a poorly written ending (and yes I agree, ME3 had a terrible ending) is not the end of the god damn world.

It's just like how Digital Only distribution is either a very long time in the future or never coming, because gamers throw a shit-fit when a game uses any service other than Steam.

So you judge an entire group/Fanbase/community on the worst part and not the whole.
Goddammit its like you judge bronies by only looking at one part of the community and then saying.
"case closed"

1: In interviews Bioware promised an ending where player choice mattered and it would not be an A B or C Ending and we got exactly that.
When we say to Bioware that we want the ending they promised us we are suddenly entitled whining fanboys. How is it entitlement to be given what was promised to you?
Yeah some people went to far but still does that mean everybody including me went too far?
Hell no.

2:Some Gamers trow a shit fit cause their dumb
And There is either.
1:steam a well designed platform
2:Gfwl a buggy POS that loses all your safe data and stops you from buying games in certain countries.
3:Origin a decent service with below average customer service
Most gamers just prefer steam because it offers a good service.
That is not trowing a shit fit that is a preference like how you prefer your games in a box we prefer our games on steam.
But because some people are stupid and whine ***** and moan about it everybody must do it.
Right? No.

3:There are many gamers who vote with their wallets.
Games are both art and a product and i accept the downsides of it.
I know corporations can be too greedy which is why i make informed purchases.
I want my rpg's to be good but not to number crunchy which is why i buy those games. And support them
I hate the current shooter trend so i dont buy games like call of duty. So i don't support them
Alot of gamer do this. But because other gamers are stupid it mean i immediatly throw a raging crybaby hissy fit when something i dont like happens.
FUCK THAT.

4ublishers do what they want to do to make money
You defended the bastardising of mass effect 3 by ea to make more money.
If that happened to baldur's gate you would sing a different tune.
If Ea had made bioware reduce the quality of writing of baldur's gate 2 to homoerotic fan fiction levels For broader appeal.
Made the combat just keep clicking until the enemy dies.
Had the majority of the game set in the same 4 copy pasted enviroments with the same copy pasted enemies.
Removed all party control and basically removed everything you ever loved from baldur's gate
Tell me in a straight face you wouldn't have found it bad And would still like the game.


But no according to you im a whining entitled fanboy who throws raging crybaby hissy fit when something doesn't go my way or uses something i dont like.
Mhm yes?