Praised Game mechanics you don't enjoy.

[Mr Thin]

It doesn't matter if you're playing FF VII or FF XIII, you still wander around getting into random encounters, they still teleport you to separate arena-type places, and you still engage in turn-based combat (note: I consider the 'Active Time Battle System' to be turn-based with a time limit).

This is where I'm calling you out; XII has absolutely none of those things whatsoever. There's no screen shifting, no random encounters, and no turn based combat. To be technical, XIII doesn't have random encounters either. I'm starting to think you've drawn your conclusions about an entire franchise from seeing a few screenshots and a couple of vids. :/

I just looked up FF XII on Wikipedia (oh great wiki, I would be powerless in forum debates without you) and I have come to two conclusions.

First, that I have failed in my attempt to communicate why I don't like the FF style gameplay. It's not the turn-based aspect that is the main turn-off; I, for example, am quite fond of the Civilisation series of games, and they're as turn based as games come.

Note that I consider virtually any form of real-time combat I've known over the years to be superior to turn-based combat; but I can still enjoy it.

What I really dislike about the FF gameplay is the menus. The Attack, Magic, Item menus you use in combat. Menus are fine in RTS games, but in RPGs, I'll take Morrowind or Oblivion-type gameplay any day. The closest I can come to menu-style combat is DA:Origins.

Second, that despite all I have just said, the combination of semi real-time combat coupled with the removal of transitioning to separate battle arenas makes FF XII the FF game I'd be most likely to play and enjoy, and if I had the chance, I daresay I'd give it a shot.

Question: From what I understand, most FF games are standalone products. I'm usually a stickler for starting a series at the beginning, but am I right in assuming I could play FF XII without having played any of the previous games, and not miss out on anything important? With regards to plot, lore or characters, I mean.

 

[Grey_Focks]

Yea.... old-school turn-based combat. For some reason, the idea of people just standing on opposite sides of a field taking turns whacking each other just seems silly to me, and honestly just not fun. Atleast in games where it's "kinda" turn-based combat, like KotOR or DA:O, it doesn't feel that bad since all those turns are being taken simultaneously, and you're free to move around the battlefield and such.

 

[Vern5]

I hate fixed position voice acting. It is just terrible. There are certain movements, expressions and tension that can be evoked by the human form that game designers, no matter how good they are, will never be able to recreate. Bioware games, Oblivion, and the Fallout games are all guilty of this sin.

Voice over is put to better use outside of fixed scenes. For example, I really enjoyed the party banter in Dragon Age: Origins. I could do whatever I wanted and I would get to listen to a witty bit of dialogue in the background. I honestly wish that most of the game's dialogue had been built so that I could still move around and not be wearied by having to stare at another NPC's soulless face for another hour or so.

Sure, it might cut down on those moments when you need to choose a reaction but that could come up as little button prompts (an un-timed QTE, as it were).

 

[Dimensional Vortex]

Turn Based Combat. So aggravating and slow, most of the time its in JRPGs and you and your opponent are supposed to take turns whacking each other with swords. Screw that, if I'm in a sword fight I'm either going to: A) Try to kill my enemy straight away or B) Run home like a little *****. I can bare it in games like Pokemon or Yu Gi Oh, but there gets to a point when they're is an alleged "all out war" And I'm still having to run up, shake my ridiculously large and illogical sword in the enemies face, yell a pathetic PG rated insult, turn around, walk back immediately to where I was, brush my hair, show no fighting stance or preparation to block or parry while waiting for the undead troll man to come and give me a nipple piercing with a fresh-out-of-the-furnace Soviet Sickle. It gets worse when you are using ranged weapons like bows and especially guns, why would you wait for a turn to blow a hole in an imminent serious threat? Personally I would be firing as many arrows and bullets at the enemy as possible, because (and this is just me) I don't like having a 6 foot long steel blade in the area that used to be my mid section.

I will agree that in some games it can make sense, like card games, Pokemon and maybe some third option. But generally I get quite infuriated that I have to take turns between being hit and being the hitter.

PS. I don't hate Quick Time Events, I think they're pretty neat (I seriously do).... And with that I dig my grave.

Let the flame wars rain down upon me.

 

[Arqus_Zed]

snip

Also, if that's how you're going to classify turn based systems then Dragon Age is also turn based because it has cooldowns. The fact that you can kite monsters (and is a pretty good strategy for most of the early bosses) throws any prospect of it being turn based out the window tbh. That and you can be walking along and see a couple of monsters randomly beat the snot out of each other just because they felt like it.

Hmm, I understand, but I'm not sure about the turn-based aspect being completely thrown out the window - if it were, it would be an action game. The fact that you can't just hack 'n slash, but have a timed interval in between attacks based on your type of attack, weapon and statistics, is what makes it a RPG - and is, in a way, the legacy of turn based combat oozing through in every RPG till this day.

This becomes especially clear when (in FF XII) you enter the more large-scale battles (for example, taking it up against 6 Flan creatures in the Henne Mines). I remember everyone standing nicely in queue, each of them waiting their turn to cast a spell. If that's not a lingering turn-based element right there, I don't know what is.

And congrats on the ninja, feels nice doesn't it?

 

[Deshin]

I just looked up FF XII on Wikipedia (oh great wiki, I would be powerless in forum debates without you) and I have come to two conclusions.

First, that I have failed in my attempt to communicate why I don't like the FF style gameplay. It's not the turn-based aspect that is the main turn-off; I, for example, am quite fond of the Civilisation series of games, and they're as turn based as games come.

Note that I consider virtually any form of real-time combat I've known over the years to be superior to turn-based combat; but I can still enjoy it.

What I really dislike about the FF gameplay is the menus. The Attack, Magic, Item menus you use in combat. Menus are fine in RTS games, but in RPGs, I'll take Morrowind or Oblivion-type gameplay any day. The closest I can come to menu-style combat is DA:Origins.

Second, that despite all I have just said, the combination of semi real-time combat coupled with the removal of transitioning to separate battle arenas makes FF XII the FF game I'd be most likely to play and enjoy, and if I had the chance, I daresay I'd give it a shot.

Question: From what I understand, most FF games are standalone products. I'm usually a stickler for starting a series at the beginning, but am I right in assuming I could play FF XII without having played any of the previous games, and not miss out on anything important? With regards to plot, lore or characters, I mean.

Ohhh, menu driven, makes sense now. Yeah most of them were designed for controllers in mind instead of keyboard mouse so almost all it is menu driven. I personally prefer the hotkey system (Guild Wars <3) but I consider being menu driven as more of a design necessity than a mechanic, if ya get my drift.

As for the bit about lore and plot; you hit the nail on the head. Each one of the numbered series is its own stand alone title with its own characters/stories/worlds. There might be a couple of things similar (a few enemies, the espers etc) but these are more along the lines of nostalgic nods than anything with any relevance whatsoever.

The reason they all carried the same name was because it used to be more or less the same people making them within Squaresoft. If it were done by today's standards they would have a subsidary company branching off from the main company to designate it. I hope that made sense, at work and didn't sleep last night so I'm semi incoherant today ; ;

 

[pandasaw]

Quick Time Events, not sure if they are praised but even so the idea deserves to be killed and forgotten about.

QTEs rarely receive praise unless they are in the God of War games. For good reason: they are not frustrating and they make Kratos do awesome things.

 

[mireko]

I miss health bars and HP. Playing through some older PS2 games, and it works really well there. Hiding behind a wall while BLOODY SCREEN (SO REAL!) fades away may be tense, but it's nothing compared to fighting Golems and Iron Maidens with 2 blocks of health left.

It isn't completely realistic, an incremental "damage" meter doesn't really make any sense, but it's still so much closer to home than regeneration.

 

[OptimisticPessimist]

Block.

Fighting games or Hack n' slash.
Who the fuck blocks?? We're given buttons to smash the shit out of our controllers with the intent of harming whatever stands in our way.
Why the fuck are we going to waste time holding down a single button when we chould be smacking the shit out of the motherf***er!?

To further my argument.. I dont enjoy unleashing hell on an enemy just to watch him hold his tiny sword/fists over his face and take no damage from my fiery combo of death...

This. 1000x this.

 

[Deshin]

Also Snipped

People seem to be missing the context of turn based games. They're not MEANT to be lining up and running up and taking swings at each other; it's just the game's abstract perspect of a group-scale battles. Saying that the battles are dumb because everyone is lining up is like saying DnD is stupid because monsters won't stand there and wait while I roll a dice. The "assumed" context is they're all on the battlefield in their various points and places and they're fighting all in proper speeds. Think of it like Dragon Age Origins with the constant pausing to issue commands, only they're not zooming all over the place like blue arsed flies once you resolve your action queue. Or like saying Street Fighter is stupid because they don't bother to sidestep. (system limitations above all else tbh)

Snip

Ehh, as mentioned above, it's the context for the design of turning time in battle into an abstract concept. Let's take it to the extreme for a moment for the sake of argument.

In XII: Wait time of y seconds y = 1.3
Stab - Wait - Stab - Wait - Stab - Wait - Casting Spell - Cast Resolved - Wait - Stab

In Devil May Cry: Wait time of y seconds y = 0.2
Stab - Wait - Stab - Wait - Shoot - Wait - Begin Combo - Combo Resolved - Wait - Stab

In Dragon Age Origins: Wait time of y seconds y = 0.5
Stab - Wait - Stab - Wait - Stab - Wait - Activate Ability - Ability Resolved - Wait - Stab

The sheer essence of conveying battles are the same for all of them, actions occuring in time relative to the viewer's perception of it (in terms of y). Even in ye olde RPGs no spell ever took "a turn" or "two turns" to activate, they just activated there and then but in that same time the enemy smacked one of your mates in the chops once or twice.

 

[Brawndo]

I don't know if it's praised, but I dislike regenerating health. Bring back first aid kits!

This. Regenerating health is at least partly to blame for the proliferation of linear single player levels, because there is no reason to explore anymore

 

[Ren3004]

I don't know if it's praised per se, but I never heard any criticism for it - realistic drifting mechanics in racing games. The type where, at ANY curve in a road you have to slow down - almost to a crawl - and turn very carefully, otherwise you end up spiralling out of control.
It really breaks the flow for me.

Oh god, this. I suck at driving games, mostly because of this.

 

[bojac6]

Leaving me in control during cutscenes / dialogue heavy bits. I will get bored and remove immersion by repeatedly jumping up and down, trying to kill the person talking, spinning around etc. Just give me some cinematic camera angles and a dialogue choice now and then and I'll be happy.

This. Half-Life 2 gets so much praise for "not having cutscenes" when what they really have is you locked in a room, forced to listen to dialogue, unable to progress till it's done. Somebody explain to me how that is any different from an unskippable cutscene? Except now immersion is totally broken because I can run around like a total wanker and try to break stuff. Give me a real cutscene or give me stuff to do while I'm listening to dialogue. Don't act all superior because you kept me in control.

 

[natster43]

Probably Quick Time Events. One reason I hate God of War is because of them. They are good if they fit the event happening, like the stuff in RE 4, but when it is needed to do anything besides that it is tedious. I just want to kill something. Not spend a minute doing a QTE to kill it in the exact same fashion as the 90 things before it.

 

[Pirakahunter788]

gotta go with kill streak rewards. if someone gets a nuke they don't need a nuke.
i would however approve a reward system based on if your getting massive killstreaks but your team is failing you. this evens up he game a little. it would be even better if you just got a power-up or something to give to your teammate so it gives him a boost and you can't dominate the game even more.

I actually liked Medal of Honor for it's killstreak rewards.
You can either Get a UAV to help your team, or buy an Airstrike to help yourself.
Or get a Flak Jacket upgrade that affects anyone including you, within a 50 meter or so radius , that allows you to take more damage, or a Predator Missle from up in the sky.
Obviously, you'd get more points for helping your team. So do you get the extra points for leveling up, or concentrate on your kills? Loved those choices.

 

[Someone Depressing]

Pokemon's Evelution system.
I think it's just clunky, annoying, and Unnecesary.

 

[MysticToast]

Regenerating health. I don't mind it if you can explain why your health regenerates so quick and it actually makes sense within the story. But games like Modern Warfare? We can't regen our health now, so why can they? It kills realism.

Yeah because the other parts of the Modern Warfare games are so realistic....

 

[KalosCast]

I kind of understand arguments on both sides, I do recognize regenerating health as being quite convenient and the argument for the other side seems to be that things are too easy and it lowers the value of exploration to find things to heal with.

I think things could still be done well with regenerating health, it probably just needs modification from game-to-game.

Specifically: they need to be modded out of single-player games. Though I'll accept a hybrid system like the first Halo game did.

They're a god-send for traditional "arena" multiplayer shooters like Call of Duty, because now there are tactics beyond "prey on weak enemies at the health pack spawn." Coordinated team-based multiplayer still benefits from it though. Things like Battlefield, L4D, and TF2.

 

[JoeThree]

Quick time events are annoying, but I can deal with them in Heavy Rain for some reason. I guess because that's more of a movie. Anything else though, and they just ruin game play.

Anything involving use of an outside mechanic beyond a keyboard/mouse or controller/light gun. Motion sensors, I'm mostly looking at you here. I have yet to play a game I actually enjoyed them in, outside of some indy titles built around them, and nothing I would ever want to pay more than $10 for. I hate that they're the staple of this generation of gaming, and I cannot wait for the industry to do a reflective "look back" in about 5 years and realize just how obnoxious it is.

3D, it hurts my head and eyes, and I dread when it becomes a mainstay of gaming because I just know that there are going to be a million games built around it on whatever Nintendo's current system is that will suck for it, and then other companies will try to copy it and BLARGE!

 

[zehydra]

Can't really think of any. I'm ok with regenerating health as long as it works well in the game, and the game wasn't intended to be realistic.