Probability in Games (XCOM)

Recommended Videos

Mycroft Holmes

New member
Sep 26, 2011
850
0
0
BloatedGuppy said:
Not that this is likely to have an impact with you, but you can't keep drifting in for the last word whilst simultaneously accusing others of being unable to let things go/fixated on winning an argument.
I can because I never tried to make the statement that I didn't care about arguing or being correct. I'm not against trying to make arguments. I'm against someone popping in constantly trying to remind me that s/he doesn't care about making arguments. Its hypocritical and he should either stop using it as an insult, or stop replying to the thread.

Dr.Panties said:
The "transparent curtain" was in reference to your bullshit scenario
Firstly, if you're using/modifying someones metaphor you should keep to how they used it otherwise you generate confusion. It's English 101; stick to the tones and meaning of the conversation.

Secondly the metaphor of the curtain is a reference to the Wizard of Oz, where looking behind the curtain was the way by which the truth could be ascertained. By claiming that the curtain is transparent means that you believe you have the truth of the scenario. Barring the fact that you are incorrect. There are very few and limited ways where the metaphor would have any real meaning beyond you trying to look clever. So if you happen to have camera footage of me playing XCOM, then by all means upload it. Otherwise your metaphor really only serves to show that you don't understand how to use metaphors.

Dr.Panties said:
which I also dubbed the "Unlucky XCOM Unicorn"
Man that's really clever of you. You should totally become a writer.

Dr.Panties said:
The burden of "proof" is not on me here.
Proving a negative still requires proof. The neutral argument that is free from the 'burden of proof' is that you have no idea if its true or not. You can suspicion it isn't, but that isn't the argument you made.

Dr.Panties said:
And the only thing I care about is calling you out on your lie. There is no argument to win or lose, and no "truth" for you to so valiantly champion, but you persist with this facade.
There is no facade, you simply choose not to believe in something that happened. And have absolutely no evidence to support your case beyond continuously going 'nuh uh.'

Dr.Panties said:
but you persist with this facade. This says something about you, namely that you are full of both it, and yourself.
Persistence means that you're full of it? We'll I guess you would know, I mean this is like your 4th post in response.

Dr.Panties said:
And "jumping to the defense of a corporation"? Please.
If not your ego, then it has to be that; as you have no knowledge on the subject to say either way. Do you own stock in their company or you're just really emotionally invested in the success of the new X-COM? It's ok if it's the latter, I understand. Video games can evoke some pretty extreme emotions in some people.
 

BloatedGuppy

New member
Feb 3, 2010
9,572
0
0
Bostur said:
In XCOM if I miss 2 95% shots in a row, and the aliens then miss a 95% shot, and I miss a 95% shot again the turn after that would you really dismiss that as just a coincidence?

That did happen to me. I know Guppy don't like anecdotal evidence, sorry about that. But anecdotal evidence is pretty much all we have.
It's not a question of whether or not I personally have a thing for anecdotal evidence, it's that anecdotal evidence is totally unverifiable and prone to bias and misinterpretation, so it's almost completely worthless. We could say almost anything in here, who is to gainsay us? It's random, right? Anything could happen!

In all fairness though, I find your presentation of a scenario in which four 95% shots were missed in a row a lot easier to stomach than one in which six colonels missed eighty shots in a row over six turns while shooting at a basic floater. I cannot remember a time with the game in which I saw unusually long streaks of bizarre results, things seemed to trend fairly consistent with the numbers presented. Mind you, there's that display bug where the numbers over the little heads are not consistent with the numbers in your readout, but I'm 100% certain the head numbers are erroneous (as they frequently showed 1%).
 

ultrabiome

New member
Sep 14, 2011
460
0
0
in a probability class i had in undergrad, the professor asked us to write out a sequence of like 100 0s and 1s and when we turned them in, he said any of us who didn't put some sequences of only 1s or 0s (like 5-8 in length) weren't random enough.

probability dictates that it is highly possible to have sequences of the same outcome in a random sequence. not having sequences are actually more suspicious than not, even if we perceive them to be 'less random.'
 

Ryotknife

New member
Oct 15, 2011
1,687
0
0
dont mind it in theory, so long as it is not Fire Emblem style. You can do everything completely right and still get horrendously screwed by RNG.

What? the enemies only has a 1% chance of hitting you? well guess what the next 3 attacks not only hit you, they crit as well.

What are the odds something like that happens, you say? in a single incident...not very often. in a 45 minutes battle of countless smaller battles it is extremely likely that this happens once or twice. And then you have to restart the battle all over again from the begining.
 

Torrasque

New member
Aug 6, 2010
3,441
0
0
I find it amusing that people cry about XCOM when I have been dealing with bullshit probability with Fire Emblem and Pokemon for many many years. You think XCOM can be bullshit? Have your unit miss 2 95% attacks in a row, then die from a 1% chance critical attack. Fire Emblem is the main reason I quit playing Fire Emblem sometimes.
 

Dr.Panties

New member
Dec 30, 2010
256
0
0
Mycroft Holmes said:
BloatedGuppy said:
On and on.
Yeah, you just hold your breath while I upload that footage of you missing 80 (eighty) consecutive shots with 6 colonels against a basic floater. That's really clever of you. You should totally become a fantasy writer.

The point is that I am not arguing your math. I'm stating that I entirely disbelieve the premise upon which it is based, and view your continued assertions to the contrary as a transparent attempt to supplement your own ego- "hedging one's equations", so to speak. Hence my modification of your precious, pretentious little metaphor. Does that clear up any confusion?

And persisting with such an unrealistic anecdotal premise (without proof) absolutely can prove that one is full of it, or as I previously mentioned, delusional. Recreate the scenario in question, record and upload it for the benefit of all of us with such a limited understanding of reality and truth. You'll actually be taken seriously. I, for one, will no longer "suspicion" you.

Finally, are you really going to keep playing the "fanboy card"? I've made exactly zero references to either my opinion of the game or the companies behind it. That sounds like you are reaching, or have completely missed the point of this exchange. I'll restate it very plainly: I call bullshit. Prove me wrong, and I will take you seriously.
 

Dexter S. Bateman

New member
Sep 19, 2011
20
0
0
I can't say I've played the game, but I believe both the outlandish scenarios and the RNG not necessarily being crap... I've read the game has a fairly high number of bugs and glitches, couldn't it explain the RNG bugging out once in a while? So although the RNG might not pick 80 shots at 90/95% to miss (because yes, that is an astronomically small chance), if the game's bugging out and some part of the code or other is getting fed the wrong numbers, it's easy to believe the scenario may happen to a few people in a short period of time, rather than by chance for the one in 5 million in 600 years.

I'm not really concerned with all of this (I'm not that much of a fan of strategy games anyway), but there seems to be a real high amount of vitriol being generated over a game that's known to be a bit buggy at times. Stop the hate people!
 

BloatedGuppy

New member
Feb 3, 2010
9,572
0
0
Dexter S. Bateman said:
I can't say I've played the game, but I believe both the outlandish scenarios and the RNG not necessarily being crap... I've read the game has a fairly high number of bugs and glitches, couldn't it explain the RNG bugging out once in a while? So although the RNG might not pick 80 shots at 90/95% to miss (because yes, that is an astronomically small chance), if the game's bugging out and some part of the code or other is getting fed the wrong numbers, it's easy to believe the scenario may happen to a few people in a short period of time, rather than by chance for the one in 5 million in 600 years.

I'm not really concerned with all of this (I'm not that much of a fan of strategy games anyway), but there seems to be a real high amount of vitriol being generated over a game that's known to be a bit buggy at times. Stop the hate people!
Mycroft does not present the scenario as a potential bug, he presents it as a flaw inherent in the RNG.

Part of the issue of course is that the situation he's outlining is improbable/impossible for reasons that go beyond missing 80 shots in a row.

The first is the "80 shots in 6 rounds of combat" situation. If he outfitted his squad only with classes that could shoot twice in a turn, he'd max out at 72 shots. This would limit him to Assault and Heavy, as Sniper's Double Tap requires a hit to take the second shot, and Support does not have the ability to fire twice. A situation in which a team of all Heavies and Assault exists is somewhat unlikely...a situation in which they go 6 rounds using their double shot ability over and over especially so...and a situation in which those abilities allow for a 95% hit chance is astronomically unlikely. Heavies are notoriously inaccurate, and Rapid Fire has an Aim penalty. Perhaps they were all using scopes!

With me so far? Good.

He goes on to say he's fighting against a basic floater. I'm assuming the floater is alone, since 6 turns of all misses by his crew is going to leave him floating in the breeze for return fire, and we've already established that his guys are going to be sitting on top of this floater to be getting the accuracy bonuses necessary to get anything close to the % chance he's talking about. The characters in question are likely quite high level, too, for that accuracy, which makes the presence of a floater even more confusing, as they phase out of the game fairly quickly. Is the floater itself returning fire? We are left in the dark.

He claims he didn't need to reload as "research makes reloading almost unnecessary", so he's far enough along to have researched extra ammunition. He claims he never reloaded, so this isn't an issue of save scumming duplicating the seed. This is 6 consecutive turns of a hysterically unlikely group makeup shooting at a fairly improbable foe and taking a statistically impossible number of shots in the process with an extraordinarily unlikely % chance of success, all while never running out of ammo against a foe that apparently never fires back. RNG comes up with crazy numbers? I believe it. Game is buggy? I believe it. This scenario? Has the whiff of fabulation, wouldn't you say?

There's a few possibilities here. One is that the game just went buggy, you're correct. That's always possible. That's a mighty specific and multi-faceted bug, but the game is notoriously buggy so we must keep an open mind. Two is that Holmes is a little crazy. He did, after all, imply the game was secretly bigoted because he got too many psionics of a particular nationality on his playthrough. Three, and by far the most likely, is he engaged in a little hyperbole, and being a defensive/argumentative chap decided to dig in and bluff his way through when challenged on it. Once you've gone down that road you cannot very well, 15 posts later, say "Oh hell I admit it, I was fibbing". You'd look like a tit. So he's taking the only road available to him, which is to pontificate at length about how the people questioning him are zealots working to protect the game, or too daft to "look behind the curtain". It stands to reason that a peek behind the curtain would reveal a master hyperbolist spinning fables, but that's neither here nor there.

And I'm really not doing this to re-open things with Holmes, we're all good here, I have no vested interest in hounding him over this. I don't really care. I just thought I'd point out why the accusation of fibbery existed in the first place. It wasn't vitriolic, at least not from me. It was just such an obvious, bald-faced fabrication I couldn't get past it at first.
 

Mycroft Holmes

New member
Sep 26, 2011
850
0
0
Dr.Panties said:
Yeah, you just hold your breath while I upload that footage of you missing 80 (eighty) consecutive shots with 6 colonels against a basic floater. That's really clever of you. You should totally become a fantasy writer.

The point is that I am not arguing your math. I'm stating that I entirely disbelieve the premise upon which it is based, and view your continued assertions to the contrary as a transparent attempt to supplement your own ego- "hedging one's equations", so to speak. Hence my modification of your precious, pretentious little metaphor. Does that clear up any confusion?
It does clear up confusion. I realize now that you clearly don't understand metaphors and think that they are just meaningless things people say because they sound cool. Metaphors have very specific meanings. Saying that you disbelieve the premise isn't the same as seeing through the curtain. The curtains still there, you are just speculating on what is behind it, without any information either way. Because as you admit: you don't have any proof, any video or any understanding of what happened. And thus can not metaphorically see through the curtain. You are instead just saying things, because you think it makes you seem smart to look like you are using a metaphor. Instead it makes you look like an idiot, because you clearly have no idea what it means.

Dr.Panties said:
And persisting with such an unrealistic anecdotal premise (without proof) absolutely can prove that one is full of it, or as I previously mentioned, delusional. Recreate the scenario in question, record and upload it for the benefit of all of us with such a limited understanding of reality and truth. You'll actually be taken seriously. I, for one, will no longer "suspicion" you.
I can't recreate the scenario because I don't have 800 save games. And I have no interest in running around trying to find the exact same section of the number seed(depending on how it is 'generated' or not.) I also have no interest in replaying XCOM for awhile at least.

Dr.Panties said:
I'll restate it very plainly: I call bullshit. Prove me wrong, and I will take you seriously.
Based on your reading comprehension levels(and propensity to even read at all,) you taking me seriously isn't helpful to anyone anyways.