problem with martial arts

[vanthebaron]

I was in philosophy class today and something hit me. I studied Shito-ryu for 3 years, and it was pounded into my head that this was teaching my respect, honer, and all that jazz, but none of my teachers seemed to mention that this was made for KILLING. I never really saw it as respect more of an "Appeal to Authority". Non-Eastern fighting forms (eg: Krav Maga) are more survival oriented. In KM you are told "this is you enemy, he has a knife, kill him before he kills you". This is what Eastern fighting styles started as to paraphrase a comedian "Karate was invented to teach you how to kill someone with a rice ball from across the room." don't give me that "it'll teach you respect bullshit, it a method of killing nothing more.

 

[Wutaiflea]

I was in philosophy class today and something hit me. I studied Shito-ryu for 3 years, and it was pounded into my head that this was teaching my respect, honer, and all that jazz, but none of my teachers seemed to mention that this was made for KILLING. I never really saw it as respect more of an "Appeal to Authority". Non-Eastern fighting forms (eg: Krav Maga) are more survival oriented. In KM you are told "this is you enemy, he has a knife, kill him before he kills you". This is what Eastern fighting styles started as to paraphrase a comedian "Karate was invented to teach you how to kill someone with a rice ball from across the room." don't give me that "it'll teach you respect bullshit, it a method of killing nothing more.

This is one of the very first things my husband taught me when he took me on as his martial arts student.

The discipline and respect is secondary- something completely unrelated that you might also learn while learning to kill.
For example, you learn to respect the skills of your opponents and teacher, you learn discipline of when to strike, when to tap out, etc, but it's all just circumstantial.

 

[vanthebaron]

Krav Maga is designed to kill.
Karate is designed to kill.

There is no difference.

The particular line your Krav Maga instructor gave you was to teach the philosophy that once you engage you must engage to kill on the assumption that otherwise you will die. Karate is no different.

Judo and Wendo are far more defensively oriented than Krav Maga or Karate, but even they require that once you engage you do so with intent to harm. To do otherwise almost guarentees you are worse off for trying to defend yourself.

In any event, I'm not sure I see where your problem is.

(I took karate not Krve Maga) the problem is simple, they tell you "this will teach you respect" and a ton of other stuff that doesn't mean shit when all they are telly teaching you is how to fight. Shito-Ryu got me out a few good brawls but respect it didn't teach.

 

[Baby Tea]

don't give me that "it'll teach you respect bullshit, it a method of killing nothing more.

Totally wrong.
Krav Maga isn't a martial art, first of all. It's a survival fighting technique.
I took it for some time, and it's about surviving an encounter on the street.

But Karate and other far-east martial arts (And even Krav Maga) do teach respect, because first you must respect your teacher (or sensai), second you must respect your opponent (And understand that they have the power to kill you if you are careless or cocky).
It also teaches responsibility, since as you progress and learn to properly defend yourself, you must also learn to show restraint. To sound super cliche: With great power comes great responsibility. Just because you know how to take a guy out, doesn't mean to go around and act like an asshole. So you learn restraint.

And finally you gain self respect. One guy in my Krav class said it great: You learn it, because there is no reason why you should walk out on the street and be afraid of people. It's not about being a cocky bad-ass, it's about being confident in protecting yourself and those you are with. So they teach you self respect as well.

So: No. It's not about just killing someone.
Anyone who says that has zero idea of what they are talking about.

 

[Duskwaith]

What about Muay Thai? That seems pretty honour bound.

Krav maga is the israeli defence force's hand-to-hand combat style, of course its designed to kill, that guy coming at you with a knife is an enemy soldier whos there to kill you aswell.

Martial honour and combat training are two different things. People headbutt other people to death in some messy close combat situations. Krav maga is basically street fighting

 

[Shraggler]

I would think that would be obvious... key word "martial".

 

[vanthebaron]

This is one of the very first things my husband taught me when he took me on as his martial arts student.

The discipline and respect is secondary- something completely unrelated that you might also learn while learning to kill.
For example, you learn to respect the skills of your opponents and teacher, you learn discipline of when to strike, when to tap out, etc, but it's all just circumstantial.

that the thing, its not true respect, it discipline. My teacher was a cop in the St. Louis PD. Respect may have been a side effect but the fact that this man can kick the ass of the whole class in less the 10 seconds is quite the Appeal to Authority, don't you think?

Totally wrong.
Krav Maga isn't a martial art, first of all. It's a survival fighting technique.
I took it for some time, and it's about surviving an encounter on the street.

But Karate and other far-east martial arts (And even Krav Maga) do teach respect, because first you must respect your teacher (or sensai), second you must respect your opponent (And understand that they have the power to kill you if you are careless or cocky).
It also teaches responsibility, since as you progress and learn to properly defend yourself, you must also learn to show restraint. To sound super cliche: With great power comes great responsibility. Just because you know how to take a guy out, doesn't mean to go around and act like an asshole. So you learn restraint.

And finally you gain self respect. One guy in my Krav class said it great: You learn it, because there is no reason why you should walk out on the street and be afraid of people. It's not about being a cocky bad-ass, it's about being confident in protecting yourself and those you are with. So they teach you self respect as well.

So: No. It's not about just killing someone.
Anyone who says that has zero idea of what they are talking about.

Karate is a way to kill, its not a meant to teach respect. In the Ryukyu Islands when Karate was founded it was created to kill samurai (the Japanese were trying to take the islands for japan at the time). The way KM was explained to me by my friend's teacher was "When you use this, use it to kill, don't half-ass it, don't stop, not until the other guy is no longer a threat" is that about right?

 

[Baby Tea]

Karate is a way to kill, its not a meant to teach respect. In the Ryukyu Islands when Karate was founded it was created to kill samurai (the Japanese were trying to take the islands for japan at the time). The way KM was explained to me by my friend's teacher was "When you use this, use it to kill, don't half-ass it, don't stop, not until the other guy is no longer a threat" is that about right?

Yes, it is about defending yourself.
I'm not denying that.

But it does teach respect.
You must respect your instructor.
You must respect your opponent.
And you will learn to respect yourself.

It does teach respect. That might not be the main selling point for some people, but it happens whether you like it or not (Provided you actually take it seriously). My Krav teacher would say the same thing. Yes: you want to learn to fight to survive an encounter. Absolutely. But respect is part of the package.

 

[McNinja]

I was in philosophy class today and something hit me. I studied Shito-ryu for 3 years, and it was pounded into my head that this was teaching my respect, honor, and all that jazz, but none of my teachers seemed to mention that this was made for KILLING. I never really saw it as respect more of an "Appeal to Authority". Non-Eastern fighting forms (eg: Krav Maga) are more survival oriented. In KM you are told "this is you enemy, he has a knife, kill him before he kills you". This is what Eastern fighting styles started as to paraphrase a comedian "Karate was invented to teach you how to kill someone with a rice ball from across the room." don't give me that "it'll teach you respect" bullshit, it is a method of killing nothing more.

Martial Arts (all of them) were as created as a form of killing with out weapons during a time when it was kill or be killed, and if you were weaponless, you pretty much died. They were created with the mindset that if you don't kill your attacker, he will kill you. I would think someone who studied martial arts for three years would have realized that. Although, nowadays it's more of a restrain-until-the-police-get-there, but you get my drift. They are all self-defense, because they all help you defend yourself from people who would like do hurt you.

And a lot of it is about honor, since honor was big back in those days. The whole respect and honor stuff comes from those days. In fact, did you ever learn anything about Japanese, Chinese, or Korean culture in history class? Asians have always been big on honor and respect. It's nothing new and it is an integral part of martial arts.

Without honor or respect, you are no better than the scum you are trying to protect yourself from.

 

[McNinja]

This is one of the very first things my husband taught me when he took me on as his martial arts student.

The discipline and respect is secondary- something completely unrelated that you might also learn while learning to kill.
For example, you learn to respect the skills of your opponents and teacher, you learn discipline of when to strike, when to tap out, etc, but it's all just circumstantial.

that the thing, its not true respect, it discipline. My teacher was a cop in the St. Louis PD. Respect may have been a side effect but the fact that this man can kick the ass of the whole class in less the 10 seconds is quite the Appeal to Authority, don't you think?

NO. Why? Because that's what respect is. If he can kick your ass and you know it, why would you not pay attention and try to learn from him? Unless you have sort of problem with authority, in which case, I suggest you get over it. Martial Arts is all about respecting authority, because those with the authority can usually kick your ass.

snip.

Karate is a way to kill, its not a meant to teach respect. In the Ryukyu Islands when Karate was founded it was created to kill samurai (the Japanese were trying to take the islands for japan at the time). The way KM was explained to me by my friend's teacher was "When you use this, use it to kill, don't half-ass it, don't stop, not until the other guy is no longer a threat" is that about right?

Haha not even close. Karate was created to defend against Samurai, but if those who practiced Karate didn't have respect for the opponent and his abilities, they would be screwed and dead.

 

[Toaster Hunter]

Martial- related to war and fighting. A martial art, therefore is an art for fighting. That is it. There may be different philosophies about it, different methods and amounts of force, but they are about inflicting harm an another person a quickly as possible. The aspects of respect and other philosophical elements were added later, probably to prevent some hot-headed lunatic from going on a rampage.

When it comes down to it, though, it is about hurting someone. Some arts are just more up front with this than others.

 

[ZSF]

Saying that karate is a way to kill is like saying that fighting games are all about killing the other guy. That's definately what you practice to do, but it isn't the _only_ thing that you get out of it. If it is the only thing you got out of it, and you actually wanted to get something other than that out of it, you were doing something wrong. For another example, it's kind of like saying that reading books is just a way to get better at writing them, or the only point of practicing running is to run faster.

 

[vanthebaron]

Yes, it is about defending yourself.
I'm not denying that.

But it does teach respect.
You must respect your instructor.
You must respect your opponent.
And you will learn to respect yourself.

It does teach respect. That might not be the main selling point for some people, but it happens whether you like it or not (Provided you actually take it seriously). My Krav teacher would say the same thing. Yes: you want to learn to fight to survive an encounter. Absolutely. But respect is part of the package.

but it doesn't seem like true respect because the teacher is an authority, it comes across and and Appeal to Authority.

Martial Arts (all of them) were as created as a form of killing with out weapons during a time when it was kill or be killed, and if you were weaponless, you pretty much died. They were created with the mindset that if you don't kill your attacker, he will kill you. I would think someone who studied martial arts for three years would have realized that. Although, nowadays it's more of a restrain-until-the-police-get-there, but you get my drift. They are all self-defense, because they all help you defend yourself from people who would like do hurt you.

And a lot of it is about honor, since honor was big back in those days. The whole respect and honor stuff comes from those days. In fact, did you ever learn anything about Japanese, Chinese, or Korean culture in history class? Asians have always been big on honor and respect. It's nothing new and it is an integral part of martial arts.

Without honor or respect, you are no better than the scum you are trying to protect yourself from.

I never got why honor is so important, and I have taken eastern history classes. All that honor lead to countless suicides, wars, and all other counter productive bullshit that religions also have wort. I just never got the point...also on a completely unrealated note "your name [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/McNinja]

 

[Gaz6231]

I never got why honor is so important

I think we just solved the case, gang.

 

[vanthebaron]

I never got why honor is so important

I think we just solved the case, gang.

way to take take that out of context, yes honor is important, but not as important as the people want you to think.

 

[Cain_Zeros]

Respect does not equal fondness. You can despise someone, but if you recognize that, if you aren't careful, they can kill you, you are respecting them. Martial arts teaches that. It also teaches you to respect your sensai as an authority figure. And, of course, you're learning to kick ass, which brings with it a manner of self-respect.

 

[Gaz6231]

I hate to use a phrase as douchebaggy as 'I think you'll find', but I think you'll find that that quote is perfectly within context, I could have quoted the entire text and it would still have had the same meaning. That's what context is.

 

[6unn3r]

I think the key words here are "self-defence", most of the worlds martial arts are taught to defend and not attack...however it might not turn out that way.

 

[Cypher10110]

snip

As a ninja, I find your post mildly offensive. But I understand that it is mainly due to ignorance so I shall attempt to enlighten you.

A technique can teach you to trip someone up, disarm them, and kill them. Well done, you HAVE WON THE MATCH, you gain "Wanted for murder" achievement.

Why not use your techniques and skills instead to change the situation from a "undesirable situation" to a "desirable situation" instead (a more complex and complete "victory"), it will solve the problem, and wont get you arrested.

Consider the following from The Art of War.

"To fight and conquer in all you battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."
- If you feel that fighting is to win and winning consists of battling an enemy and defeating them, then perhaps you have forgotten what you fight for.

"The highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and worst of all is to besiege walled cities."
-Every martial art favours keeping you in a safe position, and stopping the enemy from taking an advantage. You keep them at bay, you disable them, disarm them, stop them from continuing. To balk their plans gives you control; preventing them from mustering force keeps them weak; and attacking them directly will force them to defend. However, who would attack an enemy who is prepared to defend themselves, and has no need to attack - an unwise man indeed.

So the point of a martial art is to use it as little as possible. It is about maintaining control of a situation rather than fighting for your life, a wise man should never need to fight for his life. Maybe if you trained your mind and body AT THE SAME TIME you'd understand why martial arts like Tai Chi exist, they are as must meditative exercises as physical ones.

TLDR;
If all you see with a martial art is the ability to fight you're missing the point of why you are fighting in the first place. Conflict is more than winners and losers.