Don't know about Chris Brown, but I completely agree with you; it isn't healthy.thaluikhain said:
As great a character Charlie Harper is (not even ashamed to admit I love that show), it's not ideal for real life.
Problems that men have to deal with
- Thread starter Erttheking
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As great a character Charlie Harper is (not even ashamed to admit I love that show), it's not ideal for real life.
I've got a better one. Since when does being physically strong have anything at all to do with being psychologically strong? In fact from reading a number of post thus far it is far more likely that male gender stereotypes are negatively impacting the psychological health of men seeing as far too many believe that you're suddenly weak if you seek any sort of assistance outside of one's self.Vault101 said:
Honestly, Westaway's entire little rant makes me facepalm and I mean hard. Someone obviously doesn't understand the concept of appearances vs reality and how the two relate. Also how putting on a stoic front doesn't some how magically make all your problems disappear and grin and bearing it only serves to make matters worst because one way or another, while you can run from yourself, you're always there wherever you go.
Also the whole it's biology argument it weak as well because it isn't biology, its a social construct leftover from when men trained almost exclusively for war. Men weren't strong and then war happened, war was happening and men became physically capable in order to excel at it. That's not to say that we aren't animals and that we as males and females don't find physical outliers of fertility or survivability to be attractive, we do. But the oppressive parts are more or less cultural and most of it is warrior culture derived from methods that worked in the situation they were used in and were then inherited by us from our ancestors.
On the battlefield it allows you to keep a clear head and act to keep your emotions at a distance, not so much when you're doing it everyday in your living room and can't connect emotionally with your wife and children.
As for the physical strength showing dedication...yeah and no. Like most things in life, it is all in the context. Some people put in alot of work on their bodies for their own reasons and bravo to those folks. However there are also plenty of people that put in tons of work just because of society and its expectations. Bravo to some of these people because despite what anyone says, they're putting in work for something and that deserves praise one way or another, however and here is the big part, being peer-pressured into things is in no way psychologically healthy. People that fall to physical obsession because of outside pressures, while they are also putting in tremendous amounts of work, yeah that's not attractive at all.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to improve oneself, but loving oneself (and the ease and confidence it brings) is more important and attractive than anything else.
Mmm a flirtini sounds hella tastyColour Scientist said:
Thats why I grow a beard. Shaving is a ***** and I look like a preschooler without itSleekit said:shaving.
why can't i just have my face permanently electrolysed or whatever nowadays ?
Im kinda lucky that beards are sort of fashionable at the minute
Edit: I'd like to take a moment to thank my fellow escapists for not delving into MRA or feminism territory here. This is one of the most reasonable threads ive seen in a while that discusses gender inequality. Albeit some, if not most of the points have been trivial its still stayed pretty inflammatory
No problem, it's why I created this thread. I wanted us to come together for something for once. Although I have a bad feeling this thread might be dreailed. It's not certain, but the old passions we've seen in other threads are starting to flare.shootthebandit said:Mmm a flirtini sounds hella tastyColour Scientist said:
Thats why I grow a beard. Shaving is a ***** and I look like a preschooler without itSleekit said:shaving.
why can't i just have my face permanently electrolysed or whatever nowadays ?
Im kinda lucky that beards are sort of fashionable at the minute
Edit: I'd like to take a moment to thank my fellow escapists for not delving into MRA or feminism territory here. This is one of the most reasonable threads ive seen in a while that discusses gender inequality. Albeit some, if not most of the points have been trivial its still stayed pretty inflammatory
If you guys want to dress like Prince and Liberace that's you're business but don't bring the rest of us down to young levelVendor-Lazarus said:
Okay, on that note, I hate having to justify wearing pink, I'm like "It's Salmon, Goaddammit!". Yes there's a difference, I know because I hung out with my mum a lot...
I applaud you making this thread, as it's oft been commented that one should exist, if for no better reason than to not derail other threads.erttheking said:
And, I'm sorry if you are alluding to my comments. But when we're talking about men's problems, I just don't see how someone showing up saying "I don't care, I just beat men up" is helpful AT ALL.
To be honest, yes I was thinking of your comment, but out of all the comments I'm worried about, yours is the one I'm worried about the least. It's less that I think you're wrong (Go back earlier on this page to see my thoughts on the matter) and more that I think it's an indicator of the direction the conversation is going to move in. I'm not saying that its your fault, just that it's giving me a good idea of the direction the wind is going to blow in. I mean just look at ForumSafari's post.the December King said:
Bicycles. Seriously, four pages and no one mentioned bike seats or that stupid raised cross bar on men's bikes (it was originally lowered on women's bikes to accommodate skirts). They had to change the seat design because the damn things cause sterility. I'm an avid cyclist and comfortable seats are extremely rare. And I swear that cross bar should just be called the castrator.
I don't know about other guys here, but I've always had a hard time with my masculinity (I'm a 6'1" hairball, basically). It's an extremely personal thing, which is why I don't think anyone mentions it and leads to some of the issues that men have to deal with. I had a lot more to say on this, but I'm kind of uncomfortable about it (irony). I am grateful for the gamergate thing, though; it really got me thinking of some of these weird double standards and that there is in fact a men's culture here in the US beyond dude bros (not in a bad way, just that there is one).
Everything else I was going to say (portrayal in the media, expressing emotions, having to pay for everything, health issues both physical and mental, legal precedent, having to make the first move in romance, female on male violence, etc.) has all been covered. I would like to give special mention to the fact that I don't like alcohol, have never developed a tolerance for it, and am damn sick of getting called derogatory names over it (although I kind of like the idea of drinking a 'flirtini' just because of the name: it'd be a good courtship drink).
Also, I'll respond to some other posts:
I did some research on crossdressing as part of a project back in college: turns out that it is (finally) recognized in the DSM-IV as a natural part of male sexuality and self-expression rather than an actual mental illness. Too bad society hasn't caught up to that. Although I think involuntary erections might have something to do with skirts not being quite as popular for men.
I don't know about other guys here, but I've always had a hard time with my masculinity (I'm a 6'1" hairball, basically). It's an extremely personal thing, which is why I don't think anyone mentions it and leads to some of the issues that men have to deal with. I had a lot more to say on this, but I'm kind of uncomfortable about it (irony). I am grateful for the gamergate thing, though; it really got me thinking of some of these weird double standards and that there is in fact a men's culture here in the US beyond dude bros (not in a bad way, just that there is one).
Everything else I was going to say (portrayal in the media, expressing emotions, having to pay for everything, health issues both physical and mental, legal precedent, having to make the first move in romance, female on male violence, etc.) has all been covered. I would like to give special mention to the fact that I don't like alcohol, have never developed a tolerance for it, and am damn sick of getting called derogatory names over it (although I kind of like the idea of drinking a 'flirtini' just because of the name: it'd be a good courtship drink).
Also, I'll respond to some other posts:
I actually just took up sewing and machine embroidery; found I love it and am looking into ways to do it for a living. I always had an interest in fashion, but I had to keep it exceptionally quiet because men aren't supposed to like that stuff. And dresses? I had a lot of female friends in high school and all they did was brag about how comfortable those were compared to pants (granted if I was expected to slide into pants that tight every day I'd prefer something flowing as well). I've always been a bit jealous of women's clothing: all of those colors and different shapes. Is it really that weird to want to wear interesting clothes?Vendor-Lazarus said:
I did some research on crossdressing as part of a project back in college: turns out that it is (finally) recognized in the DSM-IV as a natural part of male sexuality and self-expression rather than an actual mental illness. Too bad society hasn't caught up to that. Although I think involuntary erections might have something to do with skirts not being quite as popular for men.
I'm with you there. I just turned 30 this past summer and realized I need to trim hair on my ear (I already had some nice round tip scissors from when I had to start trimming my nose hair a couple years back). As for the rest of the hair, I tend to refer to it as the inexorable march from the top of my head down to my ass.MetalDooley said:
Man, that is the sort of thing that if it happened to a girl, it would lead to a Title IX investigation for the professor. It's one thing to not call on someone because they always raise their hand first (I was that guy in school, too), but another to say it's explicitly because of their gender and imply that they are somehow stifling diversity by simply participating. Not cool.PsychicTaco115 said:Well, I did get this e-mail from my WGS professor...
I'm not sure how to feel about this but whatever. It's something I have to deal with so I think it counts ;P
Yeah, I wasn't sure what to make of that post. S'pretty aggressive.erttheking said:
But, Ikasury's original post does come off as inflammatory and mocking of men. And in a thread where some people might want to discuss those values and problems, one of the biggest I've noticed is that men have to be tough and strong- and when they aren't, it is emasculating. To have someone proudly announce that they like to beat up men is not a help at all.
How in the world do you 4122 messages? Was it a bug or something?PsychicTaco115 said:Well, I did get this e-mail from my WGS professor...
I'm not sure how to feel about this but whatever. It's something I have to deal with so I think it counts ;P
OT: Don't mind me I'm just passing through.
Yeah, that's the one that REALLY got me worried.the December King said:
I'm not 100% sure what to make of it. It's kind of right in the middle, to the point where I have to abstain from commenting on it. Like I said though, I'm highly against the advocating of violence, as I made clear in my reply to Vault101. Wanting to bring harm on people is just something I have bad experiences with. Even to this day.
Still, I'm glad you're enjoying this thread so far.
I feel you man, I'm what I call "Aggressive shy", I'm all big and out around people casually but... It's the difference between walking ot the edge of the cliff and jumping off it. I'm not a jumper (i'm a blazer!Guy_of_wonder said:
). And I've never been able to, it's hard talking to my dad and older brother sometimes because i'm expected as a man -it feels- to go out into the world and explore the great unknown and talk to random women and get that experience but i'm aren't built like that, we aren't built like it.
Of course, man. You've always been a fine feminist to follow.erttheking said:
I would like to contribute more to the thread, but am caught between duties, so I'll have to come back to it, although alot of people have already made excellent examples so far.
Hell, Ikasury's example would have been interesting, what with her male partner apparently being physically weaker and more domestic, and her more stereotypically masculine.
I'm generally very open around my close friends about the things I do with my girlfriend.... and by things I do I mean: drawing cute drawings for each other, doing her hair, cleaning with her, trying on makeup (for the purpose of looking like a Jojo character AND NOTHING ELSE >->), and actually enjoy shopping for clothes with her... I like shopping. >v>
I'm also generally understanding to both genders feelings, willing to express my own when in passion mode, and have a habit of pointing out cute/fashionable looking things A LOT.
Let's just say that acquaintances/random people can't really question my sexual orientation since it's pretty obvious by the GF that i'm straight... so they consider me half a man.
F**k those people. Shaving is still a pain, sitting down can be a pain with that road block between the legs, and car bills hurt my soul, but I deal with it everyday. So pardon me if i'm not "manly", I'm just being mature.
I'm also generally understanding to both genders feelings, willing to express my own when in passion mode, and have a habit of pointing out cute/fashionable looking things A LOT.
Let's just say that acquaintances/random people can't really question my sexual orientation since it's pretty obvious by the GF that i'm straight... so they consider me half a man.
F**k those people. Shaving is still a pain, sitting down can be a pain with that road block between the legs, and car bills hurt my soul, but I deal with it everyday. So pardon me if i'm not "manly", I'm just being mature.
When it comes to gender-specific problems, men have as many as women. In fact most if not all of these problems have to do with our culture(s), which have different expectations and standards for men and women.
Many people like to dismiss men's problems as not being "as important" or "as common" as women's but this is what I'd expect from a patriarchal society. Men just have to "deal" with their problems while women are allowed to ask for assistance. It's a hideous double standard that even progressives and feminists frequently adopt.
Men's problems relate to things like disposability, higher expectations for responsibility and reliability, (arguably) stricter guidelines for what is "manly"... one could argue that these problems are actually indications of a man's "greater status" in society but I don't find that argument very compelling. Similarly when discussing men's problems some people like to use it as an opportunity to make women seem like the people worse off. Men can't wear dresses because "it's feminine and being a woman is degrading" but I think they are missing the point. Men's problems are commonly just afterthoughts.
How many times do we hear stuff like this? "Domestic violence against men/rape where a man is the victim is bad but women have it so much worse..." There's no need for a "but". To be fair a lot of men do this when women talk about violence against women too but it's usually because they're so overlooked, not because violence against women isn't a big deal.
People that think being male is "easy mode" are deluded beyond belief. Being straight is "easy mode". Being cisgender is "easy mode". Being rich is "easy mode". In most cases being white is "easy mode". Being male? No. Sexist double standards hurt everyone and I am sick of people trying to play the oppression olympics when it comes to gender (binary genders at least).
Important note: Sexism against men isn't caused exclusively by women, it's more often caused by other men. I hate it when MRAs use the kind of arguments I've used to justify a mistrust or condescension against women. It's no better than the radical feminists that think every man is a threat or want to undermine womankind until proven otherwise.
Many people like to dismiss men's problems as not being "as important" or "as common" as women's but this is what I'd expect from a patriarchal society. Men just have to "deal" with their problems while women are allowed to ask for assistance. It's a hideous double standard that even progressives and feminists frequently adopt.
Men's problems relate to things like disposability, higher expectations for responsibility and reliability, (arguably) stricter guidelines for what is "manly"... one could argue that these problems are actually indications of a man's "greater status" in society but I don't find that argument very compelling. Similarly when discussing men's problems some people like to use it as an opportunity to make women seem like the people worse off. Men can't wear dresses because "it's feminine and being a woman is degrading" but I think they are missing the point. Men's problems are commonly just afterthoughts.
How many times do we hear stuff like this? "Domestic violence against men/rape where a man is the victim is bad but women have it so much worse..." There's no need for a "but". To be fair a lot of men do this when women talk about violence against women too but it's usually because they're so overlooked, not because violence against women isn't a big deal.
People that think being male is "easy mode" are deluded beyond belief. Being straight is "easy mode". Being cisgender is "easy mode". Being rich is "easy mode". In most cases being white is "easy mode". Being male? No. Sexist double standards hurt everyone and I am sick of people trying to play the oppression olympics when it comes to gender (binary genders at least).
Important note: Sexism against men isn't caused exclusively by women, it's more often caused by other men. I hate it when MRAs use the kind of arguments I've used to justify a mistrust or condescension against women. It's no better than the radical feminists that think every man is a threat or want to undermine womankind until proven otherwise.
I think male problems are worse when your young, try saying you love musicals when your around a bunch of hormonal dick (you being one of them), you learn steering into the curve as you get older.
And have any of you when with a bunch of friends you see them with girls or hear them talk about there girls and your the only one of the group that hasn't or can't? And you just have to play it off because you really can't relate.
I hate that, maybe it isn't to a specific gender but I remember having that Epiphany and it felt a little emasculating. Or at least raises an eyebrow.
On a more serious note, men do have a large problem with childcare or raising kids, there's note as much support and the support that's there you need to work seriously hard.
Also what about expectations of violence? A man hitting a woman is wrong and vice versa but when the man retaliates he is dealt with by law is worse. I'm not saying men and women should be hitting each other but I know girls who start fights with men and when a dude hits back they use "You don't hit a woman!" card and if you don't she beats you senseless and you look like a punk.
Both happened to me and it's infuriating.
And have any of you when with a bunch of friends you see them with girls or hear them talk about there girls and your the only one of the group that hasn't or can't? And you just have to play it off because you really can't relate.
I hate that, maybe it isn't to a specific gender but I remember having that Epiphany and it felt a little emasculating. Or at least raises an eyebrow.
On a more serious note, men do have a large problem with childcare or raising kids, there's note as much support and the support that's there you need to work seriously hard.
Also what about expectations of violence? A man hitting a woman is wrong and vice versa but when the man retaliates he is dealt with by law is worse. I'm not saying men and women should be hitting each other but I know girls who start fights with men and when a dude hits back they use "You don't hit a woman!" card and if you don't she beats you senseless and you look like a punk.
Both happened to me and it's infuriating.
The only real problem I've ever had relating to being male is getting it stuck in my fly.
Seriously, who the hell thought that small sharp, metallic, spike-like objects being near the genitals was a good idea?
Oh, and I don't like killing bugs, so I just leave them around the house. Except daddy long legs. Fuck daddy long legs.
Also, a woman can wear a kilt all she wants, but a man can only wear a kilt when somebody they know dies. Seriously, what the fuck?
Seriously, who the hell thought that small sharp, metallic, spike-like objects being near the genitals was a good idea?
Oh, and I don't like killing bugs, so I just leave them around the house. Except daddy long legs. Fuck daddy long legs.
Also, a woman can wear a kilt all she wants, but a man can only wear a kilt when somebody they know dies. Seriously, what the fuck?
I don't know where you live but you should leave, wear a kilt when ever you want mate. I doSomeone Depressing said:
Besides women should wear those to help cut down yeast infections anyway
Sounds like a lot of you guys need to move out of your shithole towns and cities or something. Is it really that hard to avoid people who insist on making assumptions about manliness in this day and age? I guess I'm a lucky one as well.
I don't care too much for make-up and jewelry personally but I would very much love to be able to go around and shop for, wear skirts, tights, long-socks, etc...I can do that of course but I want to be able to do so freely without drawing attention to myself. I don't have a problem with pants and honestly I really like wearing loose-fitting jeans...I actually really like using the pockets too...I just wish I could get a few skirts without the added stigma. I'm not exactly big on the idea of being the primary earner either...I'd really rather be the one to stay home and do the homely upkeep things...but the way the economy seems to be, I don't think anybody really has that luxury in my area...or state...or country...ya know, apart from the wealthy people.DrOswald said:
...the more I think about it the more I would really like to go back to wearing nail-polish and, eye liner...