Prosecutors Request New Bond Conditions For Kyle Rittenhouse In Light Of Him Being Seen With The Proud Boys

[Houseman]

Unfortunately, you are just flat wrong here. If you deliberately inflict an injury on someone who dies of it because of a congenital illness where a normal person would survive, it is still murder.

You're not the only person making this claim in this thread. Can you or anyone else cite something that proves it? It was my understanding that intent to kill was needed before it could be called murder.

 

[Avnger]

You're not the only person making this claim in this thread. Can you or anyone else cite something that proves it? It was my understanding that intent to kill was needed before it could be called murder.

30 second google search:

Wisconsin Second-Degree Murder

An overview of Wisconsin's second-degree murder law, including defenses and penalties.

statelaws.findlaw.com

Murder in Wisconsin law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

edit:

That was Wisconsin's law; not sure why I blanked and linked that. Here's Washington DC:

§ 22–2101. Murder in the first degree — Purposeful killing; killing while perpetrating certain crimes. | D.C. Law Library

code.dccouncil.us

Key portion:

Whoever, being of sound memory and discretion, kills another purposely [...] or attempting to perpetrate an offense punishable by imprisonment in the penitentiary [...]

Assault with a weapon would easily qualify as "an offense punishable by imprisonment in the penitentiary" as would committing insurrection against the government...

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

30 second google search:

Wisconsin Second-Degree Murder

An overview of Wisconsin's second-degree murder law, including defenses and penalties.

statelaws.findlaw.com

Murder in Wisconsin law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

To save everyone some time, here's Houseman's reply:
"Just because the law defines murder that way..."

 

[Houseman]

Assault with a weapon would easily qualify as "an offense punishable by imprisonment in the penitentiary" as would committing insurrection against the government...

Sure, "killing while perpetrating certain crimes" would fit. That's not what Agema et al were talking about, they were talking about "intent to do harm".

However, you're taking the quote out of context. What you quoted is for purposeful killings, not "without purpose".
Here's the full quote in it's entirety, colored for emphasis.

"Whoever, being of sound memory and discretion, kills another purposely, either of deliberate and premeditated malice or by means of poison, or in perpetrating or attempting to perpetrate an offense punishable by imprisonment in the penitentiary, or without purpose to do so kills another in perpetrating or in attempting to perpetrate any arson, as defined in § 22-301 or § 22-302, first degree sexual abuse, first degree child sexual abuse, first degree cruelty to children, mayhem, robbery, or kidnaping, or in perpetrating or attempting to perpetrate any housebreaking while armed with or using a dangerous weapon, or in perpetrating or attempting to perpetrate a felony involving a controlled substance, is guilty of murder in the first degree. For purposes of imprisonment following revocation of release authorized by § 24-403.01(b)(7), murder in the first degree is a Class A felony."

The rules are different based on whether you kill another purposely, in which case it's "attempting to perpetrate an offense punishable by imprisonment in the penitentiary".
If you kill someone "without purpose to do so", then the rules are "if you're committing sexual abuse, cruelty to children, mayhem, robbery, kidnapping, armed robbery, etc..."

So "an offense punishable by imprisonment in the penitentiary" only applies, killings on purpose, not killings on accident.

 

[Agema]

Sure, "killing while perpetrating certain crimes" would fit. That's not what Agema et al were talking about, they were talking about "intent to do harm".

In UK law it is "intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm (GBH)" to justify a murder charge.

US jurisdictions will have equivalents, softer or harder.

 

[Houseman]

In UK law it is "intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm (GBH)" to justify a murder charge.

US jurisdictions will have equivalents, softer or harder.

For the US state law, it's quoted above.

Prove it.

Kawk did it for me: #105

 

[Kwak]

For the US state law, it's quoted above.



Kawk did it for me: #105

Read further.

 

[Houseman]

Read further.

I can't read your source, it's behind a paywall, but the family was interviewed and spoke to him before his death. He said he was only pepper sprayed and that he was in good health. Could he have been lying? Do you think he would lie about his wounds so as to not worry his family? What's stronger evidence, unnamed sources, or the victim himself?

 

[Kwak]

I can't read your source, it's behind a paywall, but the family was interviewed and spoke to him before his death. He said he was only pepper sprayed and that he was in good health. Could he have been lying? Do you think he would lie about his wounds so as to not worry his family? What's stronger evidence, unnamed sources, or the victim himself?

I meant in the quote itself. Here...
hitting three officers in the head, including one who wasn’t wearing a helmet. Officials said the extinguisher Mr. Sanford allegedly threw isn’t the one that killed Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick, who was also struck in the head with a fire extinguisher during the unrest and died from his wounds, officials said."

And he didnt mention collapsing and being revived either.
He did not say he was ONLY pepper sprayed, please post the quote that says that.

 

[Houseman]

He did not say he was ONLY pepper sprayed, please post the quote that says that.

“This Political Climate Got My Brother Killed”: Officer Brian Sicknick Died Defending the Capitol. His Family Waits for Answers.

Brian David Sicknick, 42, died of injuries sustained while trying to protect the Capitol. Family members say they don’t want his death politicized. But they do want to understand what happened.

www.propublica.org

“He texted me last night and said, ‘I got pepper-sprayed twice,’ and he was in good shape,” said Ken Sicknick, his brother, as the family drove toward Washington. “Apparently he collapsed in the Capitol and they resuscitated him using CPR.”

You're right it doesn't say "only".
But I would think that it would be a huge omission

Then there's the right-wing ABC news (sarcasm) claiming "According to sources familiar with the matter, authorities believe Sicknick's death was driven by a medical condition."

Federal murder probe opened for Capitol Police officer Brian Sicknick who died following riots

Officer Brian Sicknick was the fifth person to die as a result of the siege.

abcnews.go.com

But I've posted all this before.

 

[Kwak]

And you said my post proves he wasnt hit by a fire extinguisher, when it reconfirmed it.

 

[Houseman]

And you said my post proves he wasnt hit by a fire extinguisher, when it reconfirmed it.

I was wrong about what your source says, unless it was updated.

 

[Kwak]

I was wrong about what your source says, unless it was updated.

No I didn't change anything, thanks.

 

[thebobmaster]

I actually have some anecdotal evidence for the debate that seems to be going on right now. My great uncle served (IIRC) 5 years in prison for manslaughter. Why? He got in a drunken brawl in a bar's parking lot. He hit the guy, the guy's head hit the pavement, the guy died.

I highly doubt the defense attorney used "The punch didn't kill him, the ground did" as a defense. If he did, it didn't do anything other than bump it down to a manslaughter charge.

ETA: This was in the US. Not sure of the exact state, but I believe it was Texas, because AFAIK, that's where my great uncle always lived. He cleaned up after prison, for the record, and died a self-made multimillionaire in the junkyard business.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

In UK law it is "intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm (GBH)" to justify a murder charge.

US jurisdictions will have equivalents, softer or harder.

It's all about degrees in America

1st = With intent as in planned
2nd = without a plan
3rd = Homicide via gross stupidity.
4th = Involuntary manslaughter
5h = Vehicular homicide

 

[Houseman]

I actually have some anecdotal evidence for the debate that seems to be going on right now. My great uncle served (IIRC) 5 years in prison for manslaughter. Why? He got in a drunken brawl in a bar's parking lot. He hit the guy, the guy's head hit the pavement, the guy died.

I highly doubt the defense attorney used "The punch didn't kill him, the ground did" as a defense. If he did, it didn't do anything other than bump it down to a manslaughter charge.

ETA: This was in the US. Not sure of the exact state, but I believe it was Texas, because AFAIK, that's where my great uncle always lived. He cleaned up after prison, for the record, and died a self-made multimillionaire in the junkyard business.

Exactly, manslaughter. People here are calling it murder. There's a difference.

 

[Trunkage]

Exactly, manslaughter. People here are calling it murder. There's a difference.

See, in Oz, that would still be classed as a murder but not intentional

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Exactly, manslaughter. People here are calling it murder. There's a difference.

Only first degree murder specifically requires intent to kill. You can be tried for murder in the second degree if you attack someone and intend to cause bodily harm and they end up dying from it.

Second degree murder is generally defined as intentional murder that lacks premeditation, is intended to only cause bodily harm, and demonstrates an extreme indifference to human life. The exact legal definition of this crime will vary by jurisdiction.


While some states don't use the term "second-degree murder," they probably still divide the crime of murder into two different degrees and impose lower sentences for the lesser crime.

Second Degree Murder Overview - FindLaw

FindLaw's article on the types of killings that are often classified as second-degree murder. Learn more about this and similar legal topics by visiting FindLaw's Criminal Charges section.

criminal.findlaw.com

 

[Houseman]

Only first degree murder specifically requires intent to kill. You can be tried for murder in the second degree if you attack someone and intend to cause bodily harm and they end up dying from it.

Second Degree Murder Overview - FindLaw

FindLaw's article on the types of killings that are often classified as second-degree murder. Learn more about this and similar legal topics by visiting FindLaw's Criminal Charges section.

criminal.findlaw.com

Here's the relevant DC law.

§ 22–2103. Murder in the second degree. | D.C. Law Library

code.dccouncil.us

It says " Whoever with malice aforethought, except as provided in §§ 22-2101, 22-2102, kills another, is guilty of murder in the second degree. "

The question here is "who/what killed him?" This just says "kills another". If they're a hemophiliac and you give them a bloody nose and they die, did you "kill him"? Is that 2nd degree murder? I doubt it.

It seems that there's no specific definition of "manslaughter" in DC law, which you can check by poking around the linked laws

 

[Avnger]

Here's the relevant DC law.

§ 22–2103. Murder in the second degree. | D.C. Law Library

code.dccouncil.us

It says " Whoever with malice aforethought, except as provided in §§ 22-2101, 22-2102, kills another, is guilty of murder in the second degree. "

The question here is "who/what killed him?" This just says "kills another". If they're a hemophiliac and you give them a bloody nose and they die, did you "kill him"? Is that 2nd degree murder? I doubt it.

It seems that there's no specific definition of "manslaughter" in DC law, which you can check by poking around the linked laws

Depends on how that bloody nose was given.

Malice Aforethought:

1. intent to kill
2. intent to inflict serious bodily injury
3. extremely reckless disregard for the value of human life
4. felony murder rule

Assaulting an on-duty law enforcement officer with a weapon (even an improvised one such as a fire hydrant) easily qualifies for points 2 or 3. The fact that these terrorists were in the middle of committing a felony means point 4 also applies.

If a hemophiliac person dies from a bloody nose due to someone bashing them with a tire iron while robbing a convenience store, that's murder.

If a hemophiliac person dies from a bloody nose due to someone slapping them during a heated argument, that's (at face value at least) manslaughter.