Protest outside of abortion clinics. Does it go to far?

[Parasondox]

Freedom of Speech. Freedom of Expression. Freedom of Choice. Freedom of its not any of your damn business what people do in their person lives.

Thanks America. Now the UK has a growing rise of pro-life/anti-abortion protest. Let's hope it doesn't get to the point of bombs. Pro choice, pro life. The battle will never go away.

http://metro.co.uk/2015/07/21/abortion-clinic-forced-to-close-after-protests-in-uk-first-5306145/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/30126873/calls-for-law-to-stop-anti-abortion-protests-outside-clinics

Protest, whether you agree with them or not, can cause a lot of awareness and change to a matter. But did this protest go to far? Even stories about those who go into an abortion clinic being filmed and shamed online is a massively fucked up tactic that is heartless and disgusting. I personally believe that people have the choice to do as they which and women who seek termination has different reasons for it. It's not the protesters business. By adding buffer zone does that infringe on the protesters freedom of Speech? Does verbal protest and often abuse infringe on those who go into an abortion clinic for whatever reason have their rights infringed upon.

Thoughts, chat. What do you think?

So many freedoms are clashing.

 

[PainInTheAssInternet]

Well, it's complicated. The pro-life/anti-choice group sees abortion as literally killing babies so by extension the people receiving and giving abortions are baby killers. That extreme perception is going to breed extreme reactions, so they'll obviously film the people getting abortions in an attempt to shame them. Since I've never heard of anyone being proud of getting one, it seems like an effective tactic.

Now an ethical one? I firmly stand by no. I'm of the opinion that it's their body and just as importantly, their own medical procedure which is protected by secrecy by law (doctors cannot disclose who is undergoing what for reasons like this).I'd also be worried about further repercussions against those who get abortions. Once again, they're being seen as baby killers.

As a resolution to this that I have suggested before, merge the clinics that have the titles of any association known for doing abortions (the actual number seems to be irrelevant) with hospitals and other clinics, making it impossible or at least more difficult to target anyone.

Edit: Just realized that I didn't really answer anything. Sorry.

The protesters have every right to protest, but I'd say they don't have the right to target those most vulnerable. No one wants to be in the position where they feel an abortion necessary for whatever reason. Coming at them with cameras seems like cruelty.

 

[Queen Michael]

People are free to protest abortions, but when they do it outside the clinic it hinders women's ability to get the abortions that it's their legal right to have. The protest here in Gothenburg, Sweden handled it right. It was on the heavily trafficked street Drottninggatan, and not outside an abortion clinic where it'll only reach people who already have decided to get an abortion.

(Oh, and in case you're curious, I'm tentatively pro-choice--as in, all in all I find it best to keep abortion clinics legal.)

 

[Queen Michael]

When some homophobic politician or activist is seen going into a hotel room with a hooker of the same sex, their faces aren't blurred out either. I was suppose that the right to photograph or film a person without their consent ends on private property.

Thing is, the people being filmed in this instance aren't public figures of any kind. They're just going about their business, never asking for any attention.

 

[Smooth Operator]

You can protest all day so long as this doesn't hinder traffic, you don't harass people, prevent them from getting medical treatment, hinder clinic operation,... because the moment you step outside those bounds we are well into "ass meet jail" territory. Obviously no police force would want to get involved in political shit, but I would break out the riot suits for every report of harassment.

And the clinics should seriously consider multiple entrances and combination entrances(for multiple buildings) as long as the crazies are around.

 

[WolfThomas]

The irony is that many clinics that perform abortions, also manage fertility interventions like IVF.

 

[Parasondox]

Given that abortion clinic protests have a history of becoming violent, adding a reasonably-sized buffer between the clinic and protestors is a good move. Reasonably sized. That doesn't mean that they have to be three hundred feet away at minimum. They have their right to protest. They can protest using all the nasty language and imagery that they want. Their right to protest ends at a patron's body, and given the long history of physical harassment and assault of patrons, its a reasonable precaution to move them some distance away that doesn't severely hamper their ability to do their protest.

The camera stuff is really complicated. It draws some moral lines, sure, but people have a right to say nasty things about people and provide evidence for their claims. When some homophobic politician or activist is seen going into a hotel room with a hooker of the same sex, their faces aren't blurred out either. I was suppose that the right to photograph or film a person without their consent ends on private property.

I'd just say that the right to film proceedings probably outweighs privacy considerations. By the same token, you can cover your face pretty easily when you head to the clinic, and probably should.

The buffer zone you describe is the real issue, and I find attempts to attack even a minimum safe buffer zone very sinister.

But there is still no need to film people walking into clinics in the first place. Even if you cover your face, there will always be one person that will recognise them. Using fear and harassment to make a point is a dishonest tactic and puts more women and those who work or just visit the clinic at risk.

 

[Thaluikhain]

First off, I'm pro-choice, so I don't like anti-choice protestors to begin with.

However, if they really want to protest, fine, but not in large mobs in front of clinics making things difficult for people wanting to use their services. Go march down a main street or in a public square like normal protestors do. Picketing places to shame women (or worse, there is often much worse) is not right.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Protesting something you think is wrong or should be illegal is a right that - if I want it for the things I feel strongly about - has to be preserved even if it takes some forms I find reprehensible. That's the cut and dried response to something like this I take because it addresses the underlying principle rather than the specific case.

However, I feel that most people who go out to harass and bully and name-call and shame someone on one of the worst feeling days of their lives because they disagree with the decision that person has felt was the one they needed to make - for any number of reasons the first person 'protesting' doesn't care to review before passing their pre-determined judgement of "wrong" according to their own morals and beliefs - is not kind or loving or humane to their fellow human beings.

 

[Akjosch]

Why the hell is "abortion clinics" even a thing? It's a medical procedure, just do it in a regular hospital (and the state should ensure that you can do it in any regular hospital). That way, the "shaming" tactic won't ever work - on the outside, you don't know which procedure someone entering the hospital will have performed, not even if they're not there just for visiting someone. On the inside, the hospital can just throw out the protesters out of their premises, in doubt by calling in the police and having them hauled away or arrested.

 

[Parasondox]

Freedom of Speech isn't freedom to be a complete ****, and from sheer personal experience I wouldn't object to having Anti-Choicers getting arrested for doing their idiotic protests outside necessary fucking medical clinics. Spitting, death threats, cursing, insults, attacks on faith/partners/race/family, illegal photos... the 'protests' are pretty fucked up, and I have a genuine dislike for anyone insipid enough to actually go to one under the idiotic belief that they're justified in their actions by 'free speech' (not a dig at you, OP, but it's definitely been a defense I've heard all too often to be OK with).

Don't worry I didn't assume that. I agree with you. I hate when people defend hateful, disgusting, abusive speech towards another human being as "my right to free speech, so I can message this woman that I don't know about how I will rape her and murder her kids in front of her and no one can do anything about it." My freedom blah blah blah go fuck yourself you Daily Mail reading motherf... sorry.

 

[jklinders]

Why the hell is "abortion clinics" even a thing? It's a medical procedure, just do it in a regular hospital (and the state should ensure that you can do it in any regular hospital). That way, the "shaming" tactic won't ever work - on the outside, you don't know which procedure someone entering the hospital will have performed, not even if they're not there just for visiting someone. On the inside, the hospital can just throw out the protesters out of their premises, in doubt by calling in the police and having them hauled away or arrested.

It can be and around here is often a little more complex than that. Sometimes there are not enough doctors in a given hospital willing to do the procedure. Far as I know they cannot be forced by law to either. The private clinics that operate around here were an artifact of when abortion originally became legal in Canada and doctors in hospitals were simply not offering them. I disagree with the need for private clinics in principle, but until the public health side properly catches up they are needed.

Abortion has been legal in Canada for a little more than 25 years now and accessibility is still an issue in many areas.



OT

Protestors have a right to protest the clinic. They have no business pursuing patients entering, leaving the clinic and they sure as hell have no business using photos taken of them to harass them well after they have left the clinic. A persons medical history is their own business and these folks are walking the line on some nasty legal grounds here.

 

[FalloutJack]

People have the right to agree or disagree with whatever takes their fancy. People do not have the right to make total asses of themselves in the process. When you become an ass, your point is lost no matter how good it was, because people only see that you're being an ass.

 

[Starik20X6]

Freedom of speech/freedom of expression does not mean you are entitled to a forum to express those views in. Also, it definitely doesn't protect your speech from criticism by other people. So while those dickbags have a right to protest, everyone else has the right to call them out on their assholery.

One of the things that confuses me about anti-abortion activists is they always seem to assume that women are happy with what they're about to do. I'll never know that struggle, but I can only imagine that no women decide to have an abortion on a whim; that's a heavy and life-altering decision, not one made lightly. Fuck anyone who goes out of their way to make it harder on those poor women.

 

[rcs619]

Why the hell is "abortion clinics" even a thing? It's a medical procedure, just do it in a regular hospital (and the state should ensure that you can do it in any regular hospital). That way, the "shaming" tactic won't ever work - on the outside, you don't know which procedure someone entering the hospital will have performed, not even if they're not there just for visiting someone. On the inside, the hospital can just throw out the protesters out of their premises, in doubt by calling in the police and having them hauled away or arrested.

It's a thing because a lot of hospitals, and a lot of doctors for that matter, simply refuse to be involved with it in any way. A lot of these places are religiously-based to begin with, and there's a large chunk of doctors that just will not touch this with a 10ft pole. Cost is another issue as well. A lot of the time people looking at abortion as an option tend to be middle to lower-middle class, to objectively poor. If you had to be admitted into a regular hospital, even on an outpatient basis, the price of the whole thing would skyrocket. I'm not sure if most heatlh insurance plans actually cover it or not either, which would be another factor (a lot of hospitals won't even touch you if you don't have insurance, or insurance doesn't cover something).

Freedom of speech/freedom of expression does not mean you are entitled to a forum to express those views in. Also, it definitely doesn't protect your speech from criticism by other people. So while those dickbags have a right to protest, everyone else has the right to call them out on their assholery.

One of the things that confuses me about anti-abortion activists is they always seem to assume that women are happy with what they're about to do. I'll never know that struggle, but I can only imagine that no women decide to have an abortion on a whim; that's a heavy and life-altering decision, not one made lightly. Fuck anyone who goes out of their way to make it harder on those poor women.

One of the things that confuses me about anti-abortion people is the religious angle to all of it. Like, in the bible (which a lot of these people claim to believe is the literal word of god) there's even a passage that *encourages* you to give your wife a potion if you think she's cheating. If she then miscarries the baby, then it turns out she was cheating on you after all. That's a freaking abortion right there. Sanctioned and encouraged by god, in the bible.

If you want to purely talk about the ethical and moral quandary abortion presents, and when human life actually begins scientifically, that is a legitimate discussion to be had. But don't drape it in religion and 'God's will'. That kind of shit leads to ugly, emotional and intractable differences of option and it encourages extremists to take more and more extreme actions because they feel like they're on a just, holy crusade against evil.

 

[Akjosch]

Why the hell is "abortion clinics" even a thing? It's a medical procedure, just do it in a regular hospital (and the state should ensure that you can do it in any regular hospital). That way, the "shaming" tactic won't ever work - on the outside, you don't know which procedure someone entering the hospital will have performed, not even if they're not there just for visiting someone. On the inside, the hospital can just throw out the protesters out of their premises, in doubt by calling in the police and having them hauled away or arrested.

It's a thing because a lot of hospitals, and a lot of doctors for that matter, simply refuse to be involved with it in any way. A lot of these places are religiously-based to begin with, and there's a large chunk of doctors that just will not touch this with a 10ft pole. Cost is another issue as well. A lot of the time people looking at abortion as an option tend to be middle to lower-middle class, to objectively poor. If you had to be admitted into a regular hospital, even on an outpatient basis, the price of the whole thing would skyrocket. I'm not sure if most heatlh insurance plans actually cover it or not either, which would be another factor (a lot of hospitals won't even touch you if you don't have insurance, or insurance doesn't cover something).

I'm from Europe, so I might have a slightly different view on those things, since costs (for the patient) aren't an issue here - it's all covered by the health insurance, and has to be covered by law anyway.

And therein lies my suggestion too: A hospital which isn't capable or willing to find doctors who will perform abortions should have its state-sponsored funding reduced or severely cut. They get this money anyway just because they provide a necessary service to the population. If they refuse a service, they need to make do without state help as well.