Punishing the whole class for the actions of one student

[Twintix]

If your class doesn't punish the offender itself (with some sort or social punishment, ostracism/exclusion/insults) after the teacher's punishment is over then that's on your class. The reason it isn't working is because you're making it not work.

The teacher cannot let a misdeed go unpunished, and if no one comes forward or is grassed up then no other option is left. The rest of the class is supposed to be pissed at the offender and dish out its own punishment after the fact.

...And if the class doesn't know who the offender is? What then?

Are you seriously saying that bullying is an acceptable response to getting the whole class in trouble? What if it was an accident? What if the disruptive kid has a condition that makes him/her disruptive? Insulting and ostracizing somebody as "punishment" will not work. Kids do not work thay way.
Also, like Kyuubi said, that is never how it works. Never. The teacher is always "the other"; It's the teacher the students will get pissed at.

 

[Metailurus]

This is something that, I think, everyone would have experienced at least once. You're in school, and the teacher or headmaster/headmistress has called out the whole class, telling them that one or more of your classmates has done something wrong, but that they don't know who. They tell you this, either the person comes forward, or else the whole class gets punished (how they punish varies depending on the circumstances). Nobody comes forward, you don't know who it is yourself so you can't tell them, so the teacher decides to go ahead and punish the class, even knowing that not all of them were responsible.

This is a practice I've seen in school after school in my life, and it's one that I've always taken issue with. I know that, by punishing the whole class you are TECHNICALLY punishing the ones responsible for the deed, but, as I said earlier, it also means you're knowingly punishing lots innocent kids who did nothing wrong.

What are your thoughts on this practice?

Its basically about reinforcing who is in charge, as well as imposing guilt on the conscience of the perpetrator as they have caused others to be punished for their actions.. It's not really a problem tbh depending on the culprit not being known and the response being measured and not overblown.

 

[Creator002]

It's stupid. I remember them doing it when someone stuffed around (overtly) in class. Their logic was "everyone will be mad at the student for stuffing around." We weren't. We were mad at the teacher for keeping us in for someone else's actions.
Though, if the teacher doesn't punish everyone for something and no one knows who did it, the offender (and the class) would probably just stay silent whenever someone does something. It's unfair, but I can't really see a way around it without someone owning up or being told on.

 

[Mister K]

OK, those of you who oppose such treatment, I understand your position and, to be frank, share it with you in some way. However, it doesn't seem to me that anyone in this thread had actually proposed some other soulution to those problems, that at the very least will not take away time of teachers and students that they were supposed to spend on education and recreation. And no, asking Police to intervene is not a solution, because, to be perfectly honest, they have better things to do.

Oh yeah, they could also go with "let little fuckers do whatever they want" variant. Great alternative.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

It's stupid. I remember them doing it when someone stuffed around (overtly) in class. Their logic was "everyone will be mad at the student for stuffing around." We weren't. We were mad at the teacher for keeping us in for someone else's actions.
Though, if the teacher doesn't punish everyone for something and no one knows who did it, the offender (and the class) would probably just stay silent whenever someone does something. It's unfair, but I can't really see a way around it without someone owning up or being told on.

I'm going to respond to you along with the next quote at the same time.

OK, those of you who oppose such treatment, I understand your position and, to be frank, share it with you in some way. However, it doesn't seem to me that anyone in this thread had actually proposed some other soulution to those problems, that at the very least will not take away time of teachers and students that they were supposed to spend on education and recreation. And no, asking Police to intervene is not a solution, because, to be perfectly honest, they have better things to do.

Oh yeah, they could also go with "let little fuckers do whatever they want" variant. Great alternative.

Here's how it generally works, as far as I've always seen it within the context of a classroom, where the teacher does not punish everyone, in these situations.

The students who caused the disruption, or made the mess generally see it as a non-issue when no punishment is issued for no one coming foreword. This makes them cocky and more likely to pull similar stunts in the future. This leads to them getting caught, usually the very next time they attempt something. They assume it was a fluke and try again, usually several more times. As they become known as a disruption to the class they generally get more and more harsh punishments. Because when it comes right down to it, kids all the way up through university are raging idiots about these sort of things. They figure that because they got away with it once, they'll get away with it again, or every time.

So generally it's a problem that sorts it self out in the long run.

 

[Random Argument Man]

I've never done it in one of my classes. You could argue that the method stops you from accusing the wrong students. However, as a teacher, you just chose to have a losing battle in front of your class. It won't matter who did the act. In fact, you just decreased your chances of having someone come forward.

How can you make it better? Keep an eye on your class and get to know the students. You can usually find which student did something easily. If not, you can ask them alone without accusing them. Most of the time, something comes out or they give you a major clue towards who did the act.

 

[maninahat]

It has happened a couple of times when I was in school and it never worked. The teachers would keep the entire class behind because they don't know which kid did whatever it was. They're hoping this would shame the miscreant into owning up and letting everyone go, or encouraging someone to snitch. Instead, the kid just hides within this entire group, no one dares snitching, and every kid gets more annoyed at the teacher, than the miscreant. Hell, one time it happened, I saw a perfectly innocent kid try to take the fall, just so everyone else could get out of the room. That's how broken the punishment is.

 

[sanquin]

I'm glad that kind of punishment never really happened to me. Because either the teachers were wimps, or they were able to keep relative peace in the classroom. Especially in college, if a teacher had tried to collectively punish the class for 1 or 2 screw ups among us I would have just fucking walked out. It's not like they could stop me, and like hell I'm taking punishment for someone else being an ass.

 

[J Tyran]

Collective punishment. You think it's bad in school? Try Military training...retraining because of one stupid fuck.

The military have good reasons for it, its to stop "stand outs" and to create pressure from the rest of the unit so they have a motivation to maintain a standard. Lives are on the line, huge sums of money too and homogenisation is important for most military units. You want everyone thinking and acting the same way, by punishing the whole unit for the failure of a single member they will "encourage" (either with positivity or negativity or a mix of both) to "fit in" and keep pace with the rest of the unit.

With education it's bullshit and encourages bullying, if someone gets hazed because they let the rest of the unit down in the military big fucking deal to be honest (within limits of course). If they have trouble dealing with their big meanie comrades how the hell are they going to manage when the ship they are on is on fire, the plane they are in has crashed or they are fighting for their lives in a fire fight?

 

[MonsterCrit]

It's a great psychological tool. Basically it makes the issue the problem of the entire population and lets them know. If you know and do not come forward you are as guilty as those that did it. How willing are you to suffer for someone else's actions.

It also teaches the important life lesson. You are your brother's keeper. You cannot ignore the actions of one of your group. Either give up the guilty party, stop the guilty party from commit
ting the act, or face punishment along with the guilty party.

 

[viscomica]

Well, I've always thought it was really stupid. I mean, not only because you're punishing a lot of people who don't deserve to be punished but because it encourages telling on other people (as in, telling them who the misdoer was instead of encouraging companionship between the group). I just think it's overall fucked up.

 

[kurupt87]

If your class doesn't punish the offender itself (with some sort or social punishment, ostracism/exclusion/insults) after the teacher's punishment is over then that's on your class. The reason it isn't working is because you're making it not work.

The teacher cannot let a misdeed go unpunished, and if no one comes forward or is grassed up then no other option is left. The rest of the class is supposed to be pissed at the offender and dish out its own punishment after the fact.

Except that's not ever how it works. Instead all the kids are pisses at the teacher. Remember that the teacher is always the "other" when it comes to kids. So the kids will solidify in a position against the teacher.

I understand that, but blaming the teacher for being a teacher is stupid. You can be annoyed at the teacher for catching the misdeed, but annoyed at him/her for punishing it just strikes me as being really dumb. (All assuming the misdeed is something that would be punished by 9/10 teachers.)

...And if the class doesn't know who the offender is? What then?

Then they're the most innocent and most annoyed and most justified in dishing out a form of punishment their own afterwards?

Are you seriously saying that bullying is an acceptable response to getting the whole class in trouble?

Nope, but actions have consequences. Bullying is just being a dick to someone repeatedly because in some way the bully has power over them. Punishing someone for an action they took that had cost to you, that is perfectly reasonable.

What if it was an accident?

Then the offender should have owned up and thrown them-self at the teacher's mercy. They haven't, implying to the teacher that whatever misdeed was done was on purpose and the culprit is hiding from punishment. So, there's no difference.

What if the disruptive kid has a condition that makes him/her disruptive?

Easiest yet, it's basically a free pass then. If the teachers know that a student has a problem then they won't punish the student for that problem. Student can own up and teacher goes "aww shucks Timmy, if you're having problems go to see the nurse/SEN teacher/go to cool off."

Insulting and ostracizing somebody as "punishment" will not work. Kids do not work thay way.

Hah, it is basically the only thing all kids do understand.

Kids A, B and C are friends. A does something and doesn't own up, teacher punishes all three. Afterwards at break, B and C tell A s/he's a dick and that they don't want to sit together at lunch. Done.

 

[the_dramatica]

It didn't seem particularly effective, since in senior year all the kids were still dicking around.

It seems at least rational in the military, since you will be serving in combat with the other gents so you should develop a hivemind.

 

[Redd the Sock]

Well, military training is a bit different than education. Cadets are adults, and are more likely to have some idea of life, actions and consequences than the average teenager that will call the teacher a fascist for too much homework. The nature of military service, and what it can mean if you can't trust your buddy to do what they need to do, and how bad that can be provided great incentive.

In the school setting,, while I agree the message may not sink in, it is how life works. A workplace incident doesn't just impact you, but your company, spreading to other employees and the customers you have. The more costly an incident may be, the more rules get put into place that we all hate, yet have to follow because others will try and limit their exposure to harm or financial liability. With the military it's obvious that my goofing off could put the lives of my company in danger, so if I don't want their deaths on my head, I need to follow regulations. School tries to do this with the same style of punishment: get it through your head that your actions don't stop at you, and if you don't want to be the person that got everyone in detention any more than you want to be the one that caused a car accident, or cost your employer lots of money due to a botched order, don't break the rules.

 

[Eddie the head]

If your class doesn't punish the offender itself (with some sort or social punishment, ostracism/exclusion/insults) after the teacher's punishment is over then that's on your class. The reason it isn't working is because you're making it not work.

The teacher cannot let a misdeed go unpunished, and if no one comes forward or is grassed up then no other option is left. The rest of the class is supposed to be pissed at the offender and dish out its own punishment after the fact.

Except that's not ever how it works. Instead all the kids are pisses at the teacher. Remember that the teacher is always the "other" when it comes to kids. So the kids will solidify in a position against the teacher.

Yeah that is how works a lot of the time. In fact I"m going to go out on a limb here and say that's how it works most of the time. The teacher is a perinatal figure. The fact they're "above" you in that way makes the fact they're an "other" meaningless. You can't "fight" against someone who is "above" you. You can "fight" your peers.

 

[Callate]

Mmm. Conformity.

Quite frankly, I think if I heard of this being done in a class my child was a part of, I would have the principal's ear off- and if they didn't address the situation, I'd withdraw my child from the school.

You need a certain amount of order to have a classroom. But teaching blind obedience and conformity is not a teacher's job.

 

[Bizzaro Stormy]

So how many of the previous posters teach kids? How many of you have worked in an involved daycare/before and after school environment? How many have taught Sunday school? Motivational speakers? Drill Sergeants? Anyone with actual experience working with a large group of young people that don't want to be there? I'm not saying what a lot of teachers do in any given situation is the best solution, but give it a try yourself sometime and see what you start doing. If you can think of a way to revolutionize the field than great!! If not cut the educators some slack as far as discipline methods go. I can tell you from personal experience that kids are both the most awesome thing in the world, and the most evil, selfish, anti-intellectual, cowardly, sadistic, obnoxious bastards in the world. It depends on their mood.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

Does not work. I hated it. It's stupid.

DOUBLY stupid when everyone knows who did it, and try to tell the teacher and he goes "NO. Shut up. I want him to confess, not for you to rat him out. I'll be back in five minutes". And then everyone goes "Dude, WTF, confess!" And the kid goes "Why the fuck should I confess? I don't give a shit if you're all being punished!". And of course, he's a member of the rugby team and his teammates are sticking by him, meaning there's no collective punishment afterwards because no one wants to fuck with the rough and tough rugby team (and if there was collective punishment, the people who did it would have been expelled anyway). And then it gets worse when the perp suggests some of the "losers no one likes" should confess in their place because no one likes them anyway. ...Oh, and the teacher DID completely leave and wasn't even fucking listening anyway. -_-

That, or if the perp is a popular kid, his friends will accuse the "losers" that no one likes and say they did it even if they didn't.

The whole "the class will punish the perpetrator" thing doesn't work anyway. Why? Because most of the time, the perp is either popular and no one wants to be "that loser who turned in the cool kid" because then they'll be ostracized or worse. Or the perp is a known bully and no one wants to be his next victim for "tattling" on them.

All it does is punish innocent kids and allow the perp to go "At least the rest of the class got punished too, so I didn't suffer alone!"