Question about an element of Mass Effect 3 ending and the hatred towards it.

[TomLikesGuitar]

I really can't handle all this tl;dr right now, so I just have a short question for the TC.

In your own words, what did the Catalyst say at the end of Mass Effect?

When you actually write it out and see why he makes NO sense, you'll understand what people mean.

EDIT: I think all these arguments are going to make a lot of people look really stupid when they finally come out with the extended cut.

I'd bet my whole bank account Shepard was indoctrinated for the end of the game.

 

[Vigormortis]

snip

I'm not quite sure if you realize this or not, but you come off as extraordinarily condescending in most of your posts in this thread. You start off by asking people to discuss and debate an aspect of the ME3 story, but then berate and insult anyone who doesn't say exactly what you want to hear. That's not only tasteless, it's rude.

For example, in one post you quote someone who was talking about the ending. In that persons post, they mentioned that most of their knowledge was second-hand. You proceeded to imply that they have no right to judge the ending because they didn't actually play it themselves.

Later, after someone points out to you your tendency to be dismissive with people who offered a differing opinion, you mention that you didn't actually read any of their posts. It's then that you say you'll go back and read them.

The very next post you submit, even though you said you'd go back and read them, you say you didn't actually read them in their entirety. Just part of them. You then feel compelled to pass judgement on those posts by calling them "stupid" and "ignorant".

So you can pass judgement on the validity of things without actually familiarizing yourself with them but others can't? Do you not see the hypocrisy in this? Seriously?

Regardless, it's become abundantly clear that you had no intention on actually having a discussion on the topic. Your only goal was to have someone stroke your ego and validate your stance. Most likely because you were unable to prove it to yourself.

So maybe next time, instead of being so insulting to everyone who offers a different opinion (and, unlike you, offers it up in a tempered manner), you should perhaps reanalyze your own views. Especially before you decide to shoot down everyone elses opinions.

I think that the ending for HL2, without considering that there's an Episode 1, is even worse than Mass Effect 3. The difference is that ME3 is the ending of a trilogy. It deserved better!

I actually have to disagree.

Now, had you said this when I first played the game, I'd have agreed whole-heartedly. I would've been saying, "Dear God what a bad ending to such a fantastic game."

However, in subsequent years after having played the game a few more times and really thinking about it and thinking about the context of the story leading up to it, I honestly think it's a rather brilliant ending. Even in the absence of the Episodes.

I could spend the next few paragraphs detailing why, but I quite literally already discussed this in another thread on this forum not long ago. As such, I'm just going to link that previous post. Feel free to read it if you want. -

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.373160-That-Was-Half-Life-2?page=2#14434142

 

[pure.Wasted]

It makes me very sad to see all of this energy and effort, from so many posters, being poured into what is essentially a vacuum.

A) I believe the Star Child because he's a several hundred thousand year old AI with no reason to lie to you. That's like asking why did you believe Vigil on Ilos in ME1? The Reapers have no reason to try and trick Shepard: the fight is at a stalemate. The Reapers have "won", but Shepard has them by the balls and will ultimately decide their fate. No reason not to lay it all on the line.

You have the Reapers by the balls and are about to decide their fate.......

.......and the guy who represents them has no reason to lie to you.

That is what you just said. You just said that.

Let's think about this for a second. Hypothetically speaking, now. Let's say the Reapers are... evil. You're the Star Child. Shepard is in the war room. What do you say? "We're evil, please put us out of our misery"? Or the first bullshit you can come up with off the top of your head, no matter how obviously nonsensical it is?

 

[katsumoto03]

My biggest problem with the ending is that, by going along with what the little dumbshit kid said were his/her only options, Commander Shepard loses what I always saw as the biggest part of the character.

Shepard was always about doing what he/she (no matter how you preferred to play them) thought was right. Shepard found many ways of going against what everyone told them was "the only way". Hell, fighting the collectors was supposed to be a suicide mission.

At the end of the entire series, Shepard just gives up because of what one little hologram says.

That, to me, was such a huge betrayal of character and goes against what I thought the entire series was about.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

It makes me very sad to see all of this energy and effort, from so many posters, being poured into what is essentially a vacuum.

A) I believe the Star Child because he's a several hundred thousand year old AI with no reason to lie to you. That's like asking why did you believe Vigil on Ilos in ME1? The Reapers have no reason to try and trick Shepard: the fight is at a stalemate. The Reapers have "won", but Shepard has them by the balls and will ultimately decide their fate. No reason not to lay it all on the line.

You have the Reapers by the balls and are about to decide their fate.......

.......and the guy who represents them has no reason to lie to you.

That is what you just said. You just said that.

Let's think about this for a second. Hypothetically speaking, now. Let's say the Reapers are... evil. You're the Star Child. Shepard is in the war room. What do you say? "We're evil, please put us out of our misery"? Or the first bullshit you can come up with off the top of your head, no matter how obviously nonsensical it is?

The Reapers don't think like Organics. No Synths do. The Geth were completely honest with the Quarians when the Quarians would listen, even when it meant their destruction was inbound. There is nothing in the ME-verse that shows AI are capable of, or interested in, boldfaced lying. Add in that the Reapers are all pretty damn arrogant to boot. If they were really smart, why didn't Sovereign just go "BEEP BOOP I AM A SILLY VI" instead of spilling the beans about the whole Reaper invasion? Trickery just isn't their style. Added to the fact that the Star Child, at least, seems to genuinely care for organics and wants to "save" them any way it can. The Cycle was their way, because they thought there was no other, but here comes Space Jesus all raring to wipe them out so they might as well appeal to his nice side.

Remember, the Reapers do not see themselves as evil. They liken themselves more to a force of nature, an inevitability that is no more guided by a moral compass than the turning of the planets.

 

[Innegativeion]

The Reapers don't want to destroy organics.

Uh... yeah.

Did I say they did??

 

[pure.Wasted]

The Reapers don't think like Organics. No Synths do. The Geth were completely honest with the Quarians when the Quarians would listen, even when it meant their destruction was inbound. There is nothing in the ME-verse that shows AI are capable of, or interested in, boldfaced lying. Add in that the Reapers are all pretty damn arrogant to boot. If they were really smart, why didn't Sovereign just go "BEEP BOOP I AM A SILLY VI" instead of spilling the beans about the whole Reaper invasion? Trickery just isn't their style. Added to the fact that the Star Child, at least, seems to genuinely care for organics and wants to "save" them any way it can. The Cycle was their way, because they thought there was no other, but here comes Space Jesus all raring to wipe them out so they might as well appeal to his nice side.

Let's rewrite your argument and see where it goes so horribly, horribly askew.

P1: Geth, EDI, and Reapers are all synthetics.
P2: Geth and EDI share some traits, specifically honesty.
C1: All synthetics share some traits, specifically honesty.
C2: The Reapers are honest.

P1: Already wrong. It has been hammered into our heads throughout ME2 that the Reapers are organic-synthetic hybrids. They are not pure synthetics like the Geth of ME1/ME2/some of ME3. There are bound to be differences, otherwise the point would not have merited making.

P2: Also wrong. EDI, a true synthetic, is not always honest, as ME2 and ME3 have demonstrated. She constantly makes jokes in the form of deceptions and manipulations, and in ME3 she was able to steal the Normandy by lying about Joker's role aboard the ship.

Your premises are false. Without P2 you cannot have C1. You couldn't have it anyway, because it's a hasty generalization and an inavlid form of reasoning... but I digress. Without P1 and C1 you cannot have C2.

Never mind that even if the Reapers were synthetic and not synthetic-organic hybrids, the Star Child is not a Reaper. We have no idea who or what he is and how he operates, other than the fact that he was created, which could mean a thousand different things, among them that he is yet another synthetic-organic hybrid which does not operate under standard synthetic rules (which don't exist anyway because EDI has broken them).

 

[BloatedGuppy]

If they were really smart, why didn't Sovereign just go "BEEP BOOP I AM A SILLY VI" instead of spilling the beans about the whole Reaper invasion? Trickery just isn't their style.

The Reapers routinely indoctrinate in order to infiltrate and deceive. Legion also starts lying to you after he takes on the Reaper code. Hell, the Catalyst even appears to you in a HIGHLY manipulative form.

If anything, there is sufficient evidence to demonstrate that not only do the Reapers lie, but that trickery and deception is integral to their nature.

 

[Falconus]

The Reapers don't think like Organics. No Synths do. The Geth were completely honest with the Quarians when the Quarians would listen, even when it meant their destruction was inbound. There is nothing in the ME-verse that shows AI are capable of, or interested in, boldfaced lying. Add in that the Reapers are all pretty damn arrogant to boot. If they were really smart, why didn't Sovereign just go "BEEP BOOP I AM A SILLY VI" instead of spilling the beans about the whole Reaper invasion? Trickery just isn't their style. Added to the fact that the Star Child, at least, seems to genuinely care for organics and wants to "save" them any way it can. The Cycle was their way, because they thought there was no other, but here comes Space Jesus all raring to wipe them out so they might as well appeal to his nice side.

Remember, the Reapers do not see themselves as evil. They liken themselves more to a force of nature, an inevitability that is no more guided by a moral compass than the turning of the planets.

Trickery isn't their style? Dude.

They indoctrinate members of the organic races to sabotage resistance from the inside. Trickery is very much their style.

edit: ninja'd dammit.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

Let's rewrite your argument and see where it goes so horribly, horribly askew.

P1: Geth, EDI, and Reapers are all synthetics.
P2: Geth and EDI share some traits, specifically honesty.
C1: All synthetics share some traits, specifically honesty.
C2: The Reapers are honest.

P1: Already wrong. It has been hammered into our heads throughout ME2 that the Reapers are organic-synthetic hybrids. They are not pure synthetics like the Geth of ME1/ME2/some of ME3. There are bound to be differences, otherwise the point would not have merited making.

P2: Also wrong. EDI, a true synthetic, is not always honest, as ME2 and ME3 have demonstrated. She constantly makes jokes in the form of deceptions and manipulations, and in ME3 she was able to steal the Normandy by lying about Joker's role aboard the ship.

Your premises do not support your conclusions. Without P2 you cannot have C1. Without C1 you cannot have C2.

Never mind that even if the Reapers were synthetic and not synthetic-organic hybrids[/b], the Star Child is not a Reaper. We have no idea who or what he is and how he operates, other than the fact that he was created, which could mean a thousand different things, among them that he is yet another synthetic-organic hybrid which does not operate under standard synthetic rules (which don't exist anyway because EDI has broken them).

Again, you assume the Star Child is lying. Why, exactly, would he lie? He doesn't see himself as wrong in his actions. He is just giving Shepard the facts.

You are right about EDI, but EDI is a special case due to her experiences with organics, Joker, and Shepard. The Reapers do not have this experience. Their whole experience, as far as we know, has been "Get rid of Organics every so often".

But it really all boils down to whether you assume the Star Child is lying. You clearly do. I do not. This changes the nature of the ending both ways, but neither interpretation is wrong. Just pick what makes you happy, and if you are incapable of enjoying it then simply move on.

 

[Innegativeion]

If they were really smart, why didn't Sovereign just go "BEEP BOOP I AM A SILLY VI" instead of spilling the beans about the whole Reaper invasion? Trickery just isn't their style.

The Reapers routinely indoctrinate in order to infiltrate and deceive. Legion also starts lying to you after he takes on the Reaper code.

If anything, there is sufficient evidence to demonstrate that not only do the Reapers lie, but that trickery and deception is integral to their nature.

[ironic question]
So what you and pure.wasted are saying is, not only is there a precedent for synthetics to lie,

but EVERY kind of true AI ever seen in the game lies at some point to benefit its interests?

How whacky.
[/ironic question].

 

[Ordinaryundone]

If they were really smart, why didn't Sovereign just go "BEEP BOOP I AM A SILLY VI" instead of spilling the beans about the whole Reaper invasion? Trickery just isn't their style.

The Reapers routinely indoctrinate in order to infiltrate and deceive. Legion also starts lying to you after he takes on the Reaper code.

If anything, there is sufficient evidence to demonstrate that not only do the Reapers lie, but that trickery and deception is integral to their nature.

Indoctrination isn't trickery, it's mental domination. It's subtle, yes, but the Reapers don't have to lie and sweet talk you to indoctrinate you. It just happens. And there is no documented case of a Reaper bold face lying. Legion's lies were lies of omission, done to keep Shepard from jumping to conclusions and giving the Geth up for lost. If anything, they are implications of Legion growing into true sentience, not of him being a Reaper.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

You know what? I'm going to cut off the argument of semantics right now. I enjoyed the ending. I'm glad I bought the game, it was worth every penny, and I feel it was a fine conclusion to the series. I have my own opinions on the ending, and on the nature of the reapers, and if you don't agree that's all well and good. Enjoy being unhappy with the ending if you want.

 

[Innegativeion]

Their whole experience, as far as we know, has been "Get rid of Organics every so often".

Bull shit. [sub][sub]My apologies for bluntness[/sub][/sub]

I'm sorry, but don't you remember what reapers are? No experience with organics??

They're MADE of organics. Living essence is pumped into their hearts and minds from their birth to adulthood. They are what you get when you throw an entire civilization into a blender, and you don't think they're sufficiently like organics to lie?!

Then, there's the whole genetic engineering thing. They physically dissect brains on a regular basis during a cycle's end times.

Not only that, even if they were purely synthetic (they're not), remember indoctrination. That doesn't happen by space magic, despite what the star child would want you to believe. It's done through sonic frequencies, energy pulses, and other sciency-things to intentionally and purposefully undermine the organic mind. It's not done by accident. It may be orchestrated to happen passively, yes, but it is at least premeditated; you hear whispers of the reapers when being indoctrinated.

If they know enough about not only organic brain chemistry, but also thought patterns to manipulate them into killing their friends without remorse, surely they have more knowledge of organic thinking than EDI, who couldn't fool a simple human ship engineer into thinking she was a VI.

being unhappy with the ending if you want.

You say that as if we have a choice in the matter.

 

[Vault101]

eather way the reaper starchild is fucking with you...that Im sure of

 

[pure.Wasted]

Again, you assume the Star Child is lying. Why, exactly, would he lie? He doesn't see himself as wrong in his actions. He is just giving Shepard the facts.

If somebody's holding a gun to my face (as Shepard is by being in the Reaper-destructo chamber), it doesn't matter how I see myself. I am going to tell him that I am a widower who is taking care of five children, have two parents who need my financial and emotional support for their daily survival, and send half of my every paycheck to a community in Africa.

You better believe I'm going to say whatever it takes to keep myself alive. And you better believe synthetics are just as fond of living - EDI's speech on Earth proves that plain as day.

You are right about EDI, but EDI is a special case due to her experiences with organics, Joker, and Shepard. The Reapers do not have this experience. Their whole experience, as far as we know, has been "Get rid of Organics every so often".

As far as we know. That's the problem. We don't know. What we do know is that their claim that "synthetics will always strive to kill organics," while possibly correct has ZERO evidence backing it up. Because we haven't been to the future, we don't know what the next synthetics will do, in what way they will be different. The Shepard who believes Star Child assumes they won't be different, but why? We have no reason to believe this, either. Quarians and Geth, EDI demonstrate potential to change. If they can change temporarily, why not permanently? No justifications are given.

Hmmm... would someone with an emotionally manipulative appearance lie to you?

But it really all boils down to whether you assume the Star Child is lying. You clearly do. I do not. This changes the nature of the ending both ways, but neither interpretation is wrong. Just pick what makes you happy, and if you are incapable of enjoying it then simply move on.

I don't assume he's lying. That would presuppose that he is a coherent character who stands for coherent beliefs. And I don't believe any such thing. He's a Diabolus Ex Machina plain and simple, he's there to provide a bit of exposition and screw Shepard over for the sake of screwing Shepard over at the last second.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Indoctrination isn't trickery, it's mental domination. It's subtle, yes, but the Reapers don't have to lie and sweet talk you to indoctrinate you. It just happens. And there is no documented case of a Reaper bold face lying. Legion's lies were lies of omission, done to keep Shepard from jumping to conclusions and giving the Geth up for lost. If anything, they are implications of Legion growing into true sentience, not of him being a Reaper.

They use indoctrinated agents to spy, mislead, and undermine resistance. If that isn't lying, I don't know what your concept of lying is. As for Legion, he as much as admits he's lying, and seems as surprised about it as you are. The fact he starts lying by omission after being introduced to Reaper code doesn't bode well for "trickery not being in their nature". It's completely in their nature.

Realistically though, I don't really understand why anyone pro-ending would argue for a legit Catalyst. Ghostly beings info-dumping clunky exposition at the climax of the piece is not a hallmark of good writing. Unreliable narrators, on the other hand, have been used to great effect numerous times. The Reapers lying to Shepard to mislead/incapacitate him/her at the pivotal moment is both interesting and entirely in keeping with their established character.

Look at it from Shepard's perspective, if you will. You've spent several years fighting against this monolithic threat from beyond the galaxy. A threat determined to wipe out organic life for reasons you scarcely comprehend. You've seen them slaughter hundreds and thousands of innocents without remorse. You've seen them corrupt and indoctrinate those who tried to resist them. You've seem them excrete bizarre and ghastly bio-mechanical monstrosities to terrorize and subdue opposition. So at the titular moment...the moment when you believe victory over them may finally be at hand, a ghostly child (a child you've been dreaming about, making it both an overt manipulation and stunning evidence that they're poking around in your mind) appears and announces it is the de-facto commander of the Reaper forces. It jabbers out a few lines of fatalistic exposition, and invites you to pull some levers/jump into some lights. And if you do, everything will work out exactly as it says. Honest injun! Would it lie? Its army of terrifying interstellar leviathans is only actively engaged in butchering your species as you speak.

So you're Shepard. What's your reaction to this?

1) Question whether the Catalyst might be lying.
2) Assume the Catalyst HAS NO REASON TO LIE and immediately set about doing what it suggests.

 

[pure.Wasted]

You know what? I'm going to cut off the argument of semantics right now. I enjoyed the ending. I'm glad I bought the game, it was worth every penny, and I feel it was a fine conclusion to the series. I have my own opinions on the ending, and on the nature of the reapers, and if you don't agree that's all well and good. Enjoy being unhappy with the ending if you want.

I would have loved nothing more than to hail ME3 as my favourite game of all time. I really would have.

Unfortunately, having a taste palette that discerns between quality writing and nonsensical gibberish got in the way.

Why you imagine this brings me joy and happiness is anybody's guess.

 

[luckshot]

I believe the Star Child because he's a several hundred thousand year old AI with no reason to lie to you.

he has every reason to lie to you, his solution the reapers are on the verge of being defeated possibly by a diverse yet united force of multiple cultures and peoples or by the crucible. he has been doing this for millions of years and now you have or are about to undue him.

maybe he offers synthesis as a way of recreating reapers small scale, maybe he wants you to make a choice between these bad choices so you fuck up the galaxy as his last spiteful act


On another hand, if he is so old and wise why would he not listen to evidence that his preconceived notion that synthetics will destroy all organics is wrong...and as organics exist he cannot be proven right.

and why does he have to be right? why would synthetic life be anymore pron to genocide than organics? HE is the best example of what he is allegedly trying to stop/prevent.

what if all those years ago he went rogue from his creators and destroyed them and the true reason for the cycle is to destroy advanced organic life before it can destroy him and thus the choices he gives you are the last acts of a terrified intelligence that does not want to be undone

 

[Innegativeion]

Then of course there's the irritating fact that despite all his preaching about how terrible synthetics are and how they need to be destroyed, he appears to be purely synthetic himself, being a giant metal space starfish and all.

HIS creators don't seem to be around any more. So much for the desire for welfare of the galaxy. He's part of the goddamn problem, and that's only assuming everything he says is true.

what if all those years ago he went rogue from his creators and destroyed them and the true reason for the cycle is to destroy advanced organic life before it can destroy him and thus the choices he gives you are the last acts of a terrified intelligence that does not want to be undone

Precisely. His very existence suggests he killed his makers and therefor would destroy ANYTHING that threatened him, regardless of their nature or actual intent. The little shit.