Question about Star Wars EU (potential spoilers)

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Ihateregistering1

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This is mostly about the KOTOR time period, so largely potential spoilers there.

So anyway, I've always largely avoided Star Wars EU books, but I've started reading some of the Old Republic/KOTOR ones and I'm liking them a lot, but I do have a question about the Sith "Rule of Two".

I get the concept of why Darth Bane says it's the only way to succeed, since the Sith, by their very nature, could never exist as one big, organized force. However, does the rule of two mean that there are multiple Master/Apprentice Sith pairs throughout the galaxy, or does it mean that there is literally only two Sith (Master/Apprentice) in the ENTIRE galaxy at any given time?

Also, unless I misread something, it seems like they implied that (assuming the rule of two follows the former rules) there is one Supreme Sith Lord (the "Dark Lord of the Sith") who rules over all the Sith in the universe and basically coordinates them, which makes some level of sense. Or am I misreading that?
 

kurupt87

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There can be many "pairs", it just means that if there is one then there is at least another. That's is what I got from the games at any rate, haven't read any of the books. Though, the games don't count as EU, they're canon. It was all the books that were EU and are now no longer canon.

I think :/
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Once Darth Bane established the rule of two that signaled the end of the old Sith order's way, meaning that there should at any time be only two Sith in the entire galaxy, the master and the apprentice. What it doesn't stop is both the master and apprentice both having bunches of secret apprentices of their own. It also doesn't stop the training of other force users not meant to succeed either the master, or apprentice. In the rule of two "Dark Lord of the Sith" is generally applied as a title to both master and apprentice, because they command territory, government, police, military, and everything else. The problem with Darth Bane's idea of the Sith, post instituting the rule of two, is that the method is based on extreme paranoia between the master and the apprentice. This is actually meant to highlight the fact that Bane himself is both a sociopath and mentally unstable.

Exar Kun's Sith order is in contrast actually a much more stable organization politically speaking, being for one it's not limited to two well trained force users. For the other the earlier incarnations of the Sith order allowed for Sith Dark Jedi and lords to form bonds of trust and alliance, without a direct threat of ascension via murdering those higher positions to one's self. While seen as a valid method of ascension, it's generally understood killing a superior ranked Dark Jedi, or officer, is going to demonstrate exactly how much you can be trusted by others generally. That is unless you have a good reason for toppling someone whose in a higher position in the hierarchy, like say, they were prone to mistreating their juniors. This is why Malak allowed Revan to fall in an attack from the Republic and Jedi order, he wasn't directly usurping Revan, he just refused to assist and rescue Revan. Allowing the Jedi to do his work for him, which was understandable, because Malak hated being second banana, being bitter from the very beginning about having to bow to Revan, the stronger of the two.

Another interesting thing about the Sith Order as Exar Kun formed it, is that it existed as a more loose ideology. This means the entire Sith order, working in such a manner, could easily fall to obscurity and survive, or be destroyed entirely outright, then revived later at any point. This is due to the fact that the Sith are more or less an order of dark side followers united on the principal that the Jedi are exactly wrong, with out a direct line of succession. The Rule of Two Sith basically exist as a chain of unbroken master over thrown by apprentice manner of succession until the deaths of Palpatine and Vader during the battle of Endor. Meaning that any revival of the Sith order would have to be carried out by a secret apprentice. Keeping of secret apprentices though isn't an odd practice for Rule of Two Sith, because of the mistrust that is inherent between the master and apprentice. Either of whom could strike the other down on a whim, if they feel they're in a position of suitable advantage. Also with the Rule of Two, the master could coax another to the dark side, then have that person strike down their own apprentice, if they feel the new comer is sufficiently more powerful than their current apprentice.

That's what I got from the reading of both situations anyways.

kurupt87 said:
There can be many "pairs", it just means that if there is one then there is at least another. That's is what I got from the games at any rate, haven't read any of the books. Though, the games don't count as EU, they're canon. It was all the books that were EU and are now no longer canon.

I think :/
Unfortunately that's not true, the games, basically all of them, are considered to be EU, or Legends now. So they're not canon. The only canon materials in Star Wars are the seven current movies, The Clone Wars animated movie/series of shorts, along with both The Clone Wars and Rebels animated series.
 

Ihateregistering1

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KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Hmm, I don't like that as much. From a purely strategic standpoint, my original understanding of Darth Bane's "Rule of Two" made sense (ie. the multiple Master/Apprentice pairs throughout the galaxy coordinated by a single Dark Lord of the Sith). It kept the various Sith separate and autonomous so there wouldn't be never-ending infighting, but still allowed them to be coordinated so they could do real damage to the Republic and the Jedi. The idea of there basically just being two of them in an entire Galaxy just seems like a recipe for disaster.

I like the sound of the Exar Kun stuff (if you haven't been able to tell, I'm a big fan of Sith lore and what-not). As far as I can tell, he only exists in Star Wars comics. Or did he have any books written about him?
 

Neverhoodian

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The ideal is two total. The 2008 Clone Wars show (which is part of the new official Disney canon) touched on this with a certain story arc:
Darth Maul survived his duel with Obi-Wan and is discovered years later by his brother, Savage Oppress (I know, I know...just roll with it). They decide to form their own Sith pairing, with Maul as the master and Oppress as the apprentice. When Palpatine hears of this he deals with the matter personally, killing Oppress and capturing Maul. Palpatine states that there can only be one Sith duo in the galaxy, but tells Maul he has "plans" for him.

That being said, there are no such restrictions when it comes to Sith teaching others the way of the dark side; they just don't instruct them in the same manner as a "proper" Sith master/apprentice relationship. In both the old and new EU there have been a number of such followers; Dark Jedi, Imperial Inquisitors, Emperor's Hands, etc.
 

Thyunda

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Neverhoodian said:
The ideal is two total. The 2008 Clone Wars show (which is part of the new official Disney canon) touched on this with a certain story arc:
Darth Maul survived his duel with Obi-Wan and is discovered years later by his brother, Savage Oppress (I know, I know...just roll with it). They decide to form their own Sith pairing, with Maul as the master and Oppress as the apprentice. When Palpatine hears of this he deals with the matter personally, killing Oppress and capturing Maul. Palpatine states that there can only be one Sith duo in the galaxy, but tells Maul he has "plans" for him.

That being said, there are no such restrictions when it comes to Sith teaching others the way of the dark side; they just don't instruct them in the same manner as a "proper" Sith master/apprentice relationship. In both the old and new EU there have been a number of such followers; Dark Jedi, Imperial Inquisitors, Emperor's Hands, etc.
Sau-vage O'press. That was one of the best arcs in all of Star Wars in my opinion - one of the others being that story about the clone deserter.

I think the real question is about how the Sith either find out about other masters and apprentices, or whether they spend like ninety per cent of their time hunting other Dark Side force users in case they become Sith? I mean, when you think about it, the Jedi barely need to waste time fighting Sith when they could just set up a false Dark Side 'school' and lure the Sith into traps there.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Ihateregistering1 said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Hmm, I don't like that as much. From a purely strategic standpoint, my original understanding of Darth Bane's "Rule of Two" made sense (ie. the multiple Master/Apprentice pairs throughout the galaxy coordinated by a single Dark Lord of the Sith). It kept the various Sith separate and autonomous so there wouldn't be never-ending infighting, but still allowed them to be coordinated so they could do real damage to the Republic and the Jedi. The idea of there basically just being two of them in an entire Galaxy just seems like a recipe for disaster.

I like the sound of the Exar Kun stuff (if you haven't been able to tell, I'm a big fan of Sith lore and what-not). As far as I can tell, he only exists in Star Wars comics. Or did he have any books written about him?
Exar Kun appears as a force ghost/spirit in several books, but aside from the comics he doesn't have that many appearances, mostly he's just mentioned.

The Sith work best when they have a full military and a large organization to work with, which mostly happened before any concept of the rule of two. Sidious was rather lucky that he didn't get made while he was chancellor of the republic, at least not until it was far too late to stop his plan. Generally the most successful campaigns of Sith dominance take place either before the rule of two, or when the rule of two is disregarded entirely.

Thyunda said:
Neverhoodian said:
The ideal is two total. The 2008 Clone Wars show (which is part of the new official Disney canon) touched on this with a certain story arc:
Darth Maul survived his duel with Obi-Wan and is discovered years later by his brother, Savage Oppress (I know, I know...just roll with it). They decide to form their own Sith pairing, with Maul as the master and Oppress as the apprentice. When Palpatine hears of this he deals with the matter personally, killing Oppress and capturing Maul. Palpatine states that there can only be one Sith duo in the galaxy, but tells Maul he has "plans" for him.

That being said, there are no such restrictions when it comes to Sith teaching others the way of the dark side; they just don't instruct them in the same manner as a "proper" Sith master/apprentice relationship. In both the old and new EU there have been a number of such followers; Dark Jedi, Imperial Inquisitors, Emperor's Hands, etc.
Sau-vage O'press. That was one of the best arcs in all of Star Wars in my opinion - one of the others being that story about the clone deserter.

I think the real question is about how the Sith either find out about other masters and apprentices, or whether they spend like ninety per cent of their time hunting other Dark Side force users in case they become Sith? I mean, when you think about it, the Jedi barely need to waste time fighting Sith when they could just set up a false Dark Side 'school' and lure the Sith into traps there.
The Jedi don't have to expend much energy hunting the Sith, as most of the time the Sith remain hidden, generally pursuing goals other than galactic domination. At least post rule of two. The Sith spend inordinate amounts of effort seeking immortality and old lost Sith texts, holocrons, and artifacts. Attempts to seize galactic power generally escape the Sith once the rule of two is instituted, because they stand on such unstable ground strategically. The times when the Sith rise to significant power in the galaxy is when a large group of Jedi fall to the darks side en mass together. Sidious's coup was really a fluke, but it succeeded because Sidious took a lot of time to prepare his ascent to power, playing on frictions within the republic to fracture it, which allowed him to take over. Without the tensions leading up to the Clone Wars, Sidious could never have seen his plan come to fruition. So generally speaking there are only ever a few Jedi attempting to track Sith movements, the rest of the order focuses on peace keeping, mediation, and training.
 

DefunctTheory

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Thyunda said:
Sau-vage O'press. That was one of the best arcs in all of Star Wars in my opinion - one of the others being that story about the clone deserter.
I loved Maul's arc. His 'resurrection' was a bit lame, but what they did with it was fantastic. And the fight at the end...


Seriously, every time Darth Sidious got to let loose and show that he was more then a schemer was great. That pure, cackling evil joy he takes in just crushing everyone without any real effort is just fantastic.

I think the real question is about how the Sith either find out about other masters and apprentices, or whether they spend like ninety per cent of their time hunting other Dark Side force users in case they become Sith? I mean, when you think about it, the Jedi barely need to waste time fighting Sith when they could just set up a false Dark Side 'school' and lure the Sith into traps there.
Well, the part of the Rule of Two, probably not the original 'agreement,' but part of it now anyway, is that Sith knowledge is essentially gone from the galaxy at large. They don't have massive temples lying all over the place, their primary planet has been scraped clean by Jedi and time, leaving only dark force energy that would sooner kill you then teach you anything. Sith can't persist after death. Pretty much the only way to become a proper Sith, with all the powers that make that order truly dangerous, is to become one of the two Sith, either by being chosen, or by being a force servant that usurps the apprentice.

If we use Clone Wars as a source (Which many would object to, but fuck'em, it's canon), Sidious and Tyranus don't seem overly concerned with others tinkering with the Dark Side - Tyranus himself works with a witch coven that's pretty much Sith Light. They're concerned only with their own power and control - If some backwater women's book club wants to learn how to channel their anger through the force, good on them, who cares. If that group starts expanding a power base, either to intentionally damage the Sith or to unintentional intrude on their plans, they deal with it then. Or, more likely, they simply cow them into submission and turn them into assassins and inquisitors. Where do you think those guys come from?

On the Rule of Two, I'd just like to throw this out there - It's entirely possible Darth Bane was full of shit, and the Rule of Two's only real purpose was to consolidate power for himself. The Sith of his era were spectacularly greedy, after all, and it's not beyond reason that Bane couldn't give less of a shit about the 'Sith,' and was only trying to create a system he could game and succeed in (That he obviously failed at anyway, since he's dead).
 

Saltyk

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Generally, I think there is nothing preventing there from being two Sith pairs or more. However, the very nature of the Sith often would have these pairs come into conflict with each other. Meaning it would be entirely likely for one Master to lure the other Master's apprentice away and make him the new apprentice, probably after killing his former student and the other Master. Or just for the two groups to try to kill the other, if they feel it would cement their power.

It's my understanding that by and large the reason the Sith always fail is that they betray each other. One Sith sees that he can kill another, and he will take that opportunity, often at the expense of some strategic advantage in a larger conflict.

"Look, the Lord of all Sith is caught in the middle of a conflict with our mortal enemies. He is so focused on that battle that he won't notice if I sabotage his plans, killing him and destroying his Capital Ship. So, I'm going to do that. Then, I'll be the Lord of all Sith. Never mind that it also means gravely injuring our own fighting power, weakening the center of our defensive line, causing our lines to buckle and be overrun by the Jedi and Republic."

This is exactly why Revan fell in KOTOR.

And that is why the Rule of Two was made in the first place. To prevent such large scale betrayals. The fact is that the Sith can't trust other Sith. With only two, you never have to worry about the other 500 evil space wizards who also want your power and territory as much as they want to kill the Jedi. Of course, two Sith also can't kill all the Jedi. So, it's kinda a catch 22. No matter what they do, the Sith can't truly win under normal circumstances.
 

Jadak

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kurupt87 said:
Though, the games don't count as EU, they're canon. It was all the books that were EU and are now no longer canon.

I think :/
Definitely too broad of a statement to make. There's a lot of games and a lot of made up lore, not all of which is exclusive from the nullified EU books.
 

WhiteFangofWhoa

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'Two there should be; no more, no less. One to embody the power, the other to crave it.'

So yes, the rule calls for only two real Sith at a time, a master and an apprentice. The book in which it is founded does have Bane establish a caveat that some lesser servants may be permitted a small amount of the master's knowledge, but there would only ever be one true apprentice and one master.

The reason Bane made this is because he felt any more than two Sith inevitably falls to infighting and treachery as had happened quite a lot already in the past (in his time there was an entire army of them and they still couldn't win). The master and apprentice usually secretly plot each other's destruction anyway, but the apprentice wouldn't be able to succeed in this until they'd already surpassed their master. He believed this would make the Sith progressively stronger as time went on and they remained hidden until ready to strike. Took a while, but after three thousand years it worked.
 

GhostFox

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In addition to the seven movies and the animation, I believe it's been stated that the new line of Star Wars comics that Marvel (also part of Disney) is currently publishing are to be considered canon. Whether this is true or not, they are also rather good reads.
 

Sniper Team 4

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The way it's supposed to work is that yes, there are only supposed to be two Sith in the entire galaxy. Master and Apprentice. As others have said, it's because of infighting. When your entire way of life revolves around yourself and lusting after power and stabbing your "friends" in the back, the Sith often fell on each other just as much, if not more, as their victims.

The way it works in reality is that there are different groups of Sith, ranging from a planet that is completely Sith (where Vesstera comes from) to the One Sith that show up in the Star Wars Legacy comics with Cade. It seems that the Sith are everywhere, or at least people calling themselves Sith. They wait and then pop up once the current, "I'm the REAL SITH LORD!" fails. There have been a few times where the Sith all team up, but it's rare, and when it does happen, they always end up turning on each other.

They're like the Jedi. You can't 'wipe out' the Jedi because the Jedi are an idea, not a thing. Unless the Sith track down every last hint of Jedi throughout the entire universe, you can't wipe them out. The Force will find a way to bring them back. Some kid will find their teachings, or a forgotten Jedi will wake up. The same thing goes for the Sith. You can't wipe them out because they have become an idea too, not a thing. That's why, even though there are supposed to only be two, there are always more than that.