Question for people Pro-guns....

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camazotz

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Jul 23, 2009
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If the UK decides to share a significant section of border with Mexico, then we can talk. I live in New Mexico and grew up in Arizona. The border is turning into a dangerous hellhole and I don't fault anyone who lives down there (including my parents) who wish to be armed for personal protection.

I am personally against owning a weapon, but I support the right to own a weapon for others (and reserve the option for myself should the need arise). Almost all gun owners I know are hunters and own weapons suited for hunting. The rest tend to be involved in security, law enforcement, or just plain old like having a firearm.

A side effect of accepting gun ownership is accepting responsibility for what that means. It's a problem I wrestle with; I favor a society where personal responsibility is understood and people can own guns because they can be trusted to be responsibile. Then there's the real world where plenty of people shouldn't be allowed access to a firearm for various reasons. I like the happy middle, where guns can be owned but you need to pass a background check and (ideally) not have some sort of borderline personality disorder or psychopathy. I think we're not quite there yet in the US in terms of regulations, obviously.
 

the doom cannon

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Jun 28, 2012
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Britain doesn't have Mexican drug cartels next door. That's where the illegal guns come from. If we make guns illegal in the US then a HUGE black market will open up fueling the cartels more and more. Please tell me how that's a good idea.
 

J Tyran

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Dec 15, 2011
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the doom cannon said:
Britain doesn't have Mexican drug cartels next door. That's where the illegal guns come from. If we make guns illegal in the US then a HUGE black market will open up fueling the cartels more and more. Please tell me how that's a good idea.
To be honest I often wonder why the US is still pouring resources into the war on terror when you have such a serious problem with gangs and cartels. Gang members need to classified as militias and forced to disarm for a start. Its gone way beyond a civil criminal issue.
 

Owen Robertson

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Jul 26, 2011
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It's a rather long and arduous point that rarely, if ever, gets across. I'll summarize.
I like guns.
But guns are dangerous.
Guns are only dangerous when used by irresponsible people.
So can we make laws and systems that make guns accessible only to responsible people?
No.
Why not?
Because a 236 year old document says we can have them.
... you realize the world was a different place then, right? British invasion was a very real threat. Ensuring that the citizenry was armed almost guaranteed defeat for anyone. Now, you don't need a gun.
Yes I do.
Why?
Because everyone has guns, even irresponsible people like criminals.
... so then can we make guns harder to access?
No.
Because of the document?
Yes.
You're not willing to concede anything, are you?
No.
Fuck.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Techno Squidgy said:
Who on earth needs an automatic weapon beyond the military?
The Assault Weapons Ban had nothing to do with automatic weapons. Well, unless they also happened to be assault weapons. But the two are defined individually, so a gun can be one, both or neither.

While not strictly illegal, automatic weapons are HEAVILY restricted. The FAWB didn't change that, nor did its expiration stop that.

Anyway, more to the point, the ban was unsuccessful because of a common mentality within America: If it doesn't work perfectly, scrap it. Rather than revising the law, they used its failue to stop EVERY crime as a reason to let it expire.
 

Prosis

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May 5, 2011
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Drugs are illegal.
Therefore, only criminals have drugs.
If guns become illegal in America, then only criminals have guns. I know it works in some countries, but I don't really see it as viable here. Unless you have some way to monitor EVERY box that moves into the country, guns will be in the country. All that gun legislation does is determine if only criminals will own guns, or if both criminals and citizens will own guns.

Also, guns aren't just for shooting other people. I live in a rural area of California. We get wild boars here. For those of you who don't know, wild boars grow to be 150+ pounds (about the weight of an adult human). They're agressive, highly territorial, and an invasive species. Their form of foraging rips up the landscape and habitats of other animals. While some animals will prey on their young, the full grown boar has no predators whatsoever. Did I mention they reproduce fast? It only takes about 8 years or so for wild boars to number in the hundreds in an area which used to have none. A gun is the only way to control their population. There is nowhere to cart them. Tranquilizer darts will knock them out, true, but they're slow. A drugged boar still has more than enough time to charge and gouge a man before it succumbs.

There are other wild animals that can be a problem as well. Cougar or wolf attacks on humans are very rare. However, once one of these larger predators preys on a human, it recognizes humans as a viable food source. If it has offspring, it will teach those offspring to prey on humans as well. Therefore, it is absolutely critical that predators which have preyed on a human are killed immediately.
 

emeraldrafael

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Jul 17, 2010
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yeah you do that Britain. I'll keep my guns so that when some idiot gets a machete I dont have to stand around nad watch for six hours in terror while the police have to stand around using ineefective mace, tasers and batons.

Im going to suspect this is cause of the latest colorado massacre. now, looking at CO, maybe they should get a state ban on them since their citizens dont seem to understand responsibility. but for the other 49 states, guns arent really the great evil people make them to be. and besides, it was britain that started the whole we need guns thing.
 

Clearing the Eye

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Jun 6, 2012
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Almost all crime committed in the U.S. with or through the use of a firearm is done so with illegal and unregistered guns--weapons obtained via illicit channels and held without formal right.

The United States doesn't have a gun problem. It has a people problem.
 

Frankster

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Mar 13, 2009
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I was writing a tl dr post replying to half a dozen people in this thread based on my experiences with certain countries mentioned in this thread (uk, france, mexico, switzerland) and then I realized how pointless it was, each country having its particular circumstances and the population acting in a different way, and the futility of trying to communicate personal experience to people who are in sarcasm defence mode and don't want to consider world is more complex then they think, especially in regard to certain countries (if you're using mexico or france or heck even switzerland to argue for or against gun control, you don't understand those countries or why gun control/non gun control works/doesnt work/ in those countries).

I'll just answer one guy as i feel there is opportunity to exchange views without being confrontational.

Omechron said:
How's your not-gun crime? I'd rather be shot than beaten to death with a cricket bat.
I'd rather face knives and baseball bats then guns any time tbh :)
From where I stand i have trouble understanding why people present the melee weapons that need the agressor to get in close and do the deed himself as worst then the impersonal ranged weapon where you can kill people simply by squeezing a trigger. Maybe because in my view i'm always unarmed so if anyone has a gun it will be the one trying to mug me, whereas americans here imagine themselves armed and loaded?
 
Jun 23, 2008
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The topic of gun control does come out quite a bit with every spree shooting, as do many of the arguments. According to some statistics guns are dangerous.[footnote]The chances of a handgun killing its owner is twice as much as the chances of it killing an assailant. (The chances of it doing either is fairly remote. Most families with handguns survive without incident.)[/footnote] Our crime rate with guns in the US is ridiculously high compared to that of the rest of the industrialized world (even those with rampant private gun ownership). It's all true.

And yeah, there's a lot of common counter arguments: guns have uses too, especially against vermin and hungry megafauna, that the police are short staffed, that our government gets rambunctious when they're not nervous about someone trying to shoot them out of spite. That there's a gun culture, and changing that would be a problem. Indeed, the United States has had a frontier most of its existence, and that has given us an individualist culture. We still have plenty of rural and downright wild areas and our institutionalized hazard control services cannot possibly cover all occasions.

Myself, I'd even go on to argue that not only do we not have enough police to intercept crime (or even carry all cases through the justice system), but recent events regarding phone cameras, regarding child-run lemonade stands, regarding the arrests of spontaneous dancers, regarding the Occupy raids and, heck, regarding the Megaupload arrests have made it clear that the police are not (necessarily) our friends. They segregate themselves from us civilians, and are more interested in throwing people in jail than seeing justice done, and they go where they are directed by lobby-controlled administrators, not where they are necessarily needed. So, for now, it appears the long arm of the law is hedging towards the service of tyrants than of the people.

But all this is moot when it comes to gun control, because the whole reason we would restrict access to firearms is to allegedly protect us from ourselves. And people not only need to engage in dangerous activities for the purposes of industry (agrarian or otherwise), but we also like to engage in dangerous activities. Perhaps crazy, perhaps stupid, but definitely thrillseekers, we jump out of airplanes, and go undersea deep enough that we have to depressurize for weeks. We climb rocks and go to parts of the world where we have no business being. Just to see it. Just to be there. And sometimes we like to appreciate the instruments of warfare and lob some artillery at some old wrecked cars.

The question eventually has to be raised: What is the determining factor that that makes one dangerous thing acceptable, and another dangerous thing not? The ability to kill others? Then cars would be outlawed, as they cause more death and injury per capita, per car or per owner (however you want to measure it). Intent of a device? Well then you start getting into thought crime, and this logic breaks down comes when civilian weapons are more effective despite their multipurpose nature (better range, do more damage, more accurate), than military ones.[footnote]An designated marksmen [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle] for that intermediate range between ordinary riflemen and snipers.[/footnote] We can't regulate things just because someone thinks their existence is evil, otherwise a lot of fringe culture, from AD&D to Rock & Roll to Pogo dancing to video games become subject to regulation because someone finds it distasteful and thinks our kids will be corrupted under its influence.

Incidents such as the won't stop this. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora_shooting] and it is impossible to regulate enough to stop someone determined to do a lot of damage.

The sad truth is, the US has reacted to consequences [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11] of having done so. Having not endured war in our homeland (not since the era of mechanized warfare, at least) we haven't been able to take terrorist attacks in stride the way it often is in Europe. In the meantime, just as the victims of the 9/11 attacks were hardly a blip in the statistical safety records of airlines, the Aurora cinema shooting will hardly be an anomaly in the violent crime statistics in the United States, the highest rates are due to domestic incidents and gang warfare. And if you're truly looking to save lives (rather than react to the most recent drama), heart disease, cancer, respiratory illness and strokes are killing us far, far more than bullets.

238U
 

Naeras

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Mar 1, 2011
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cotss2012 said:
Because there's a difference between "crime" and "gun crime", and they respond in opposite ways to gun laws.

Basically, for every person that you spare from death by bullet wound, you're getting a mugging, a rape, and two deaths by knife wound in return.

We're just better at math than you are.
I'd like to see this claim backed up, because I'm fairly certain US rates of both gun crimes and "other" crimes are higher per capita than any other country in the developed world.

edit: for the record, I'm fairly certain the numbers I've seen indicate that there's no clear relation between gun accessibility and crime rates, neither in a positive and negative direction. I'd still be for increased gun regulation in the states, but that's primarily to avoid accidents from improper handling of the weapon.
 

J Tyran

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Dec 15, 2011
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Jean Hag said:
If you were a criminal would you try robbing a mall knowing the odds are a dozen people are carrying guns with them and will use them if they feel endangered?
Criminals don't rob malls in the US, they just go in and shoot everyone up indiscriminately.
 

Bat Vader

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Mar 11, 2009
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Blablahb said:
matrix3509 said:
Yes because criminal really care about doing illegal things. I'm just going to assume you are being intentionally disingenuous here, its better for my own sanity that way. The fact here which you so willfully ignored is that if a criminal wants a gun badly enough a law isn't going to stop them. That you think criminals only care about money is as ludicrous as it is false.
How does this adress the blunt fact that gun bans prevent criminals from getting guns?
A gun ban isn't going to stop all criminals from getting guns. If someone wants a gun bad enough they are going to find a way to obtain one.
 

That_Sneaky_Camper

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Aug 19, 2011
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Scrustle said:
I don't really want to get in to a debate about guns. I've already done that on this site and it was a complete waste of time. I just want to point out to people that there is a difference between legalising guns in a country that's not used to them, and banning guns in a country that is.

But the main reason I posted here was to say that gif is both awesome and hilarious.
Best response to this type of thread. Give this guy a cookie!