Question for people Pro-guns....

[orangeban]

I think the important difference is that in Britain ordinary cops don't carry guns. This is very important, because that means ordinary criminals don't carry guns either.

Why? Well, you only really need guns if your opposition is also packing guns, and if that's not the case then guns just cause problems.

-Being caught with a gun is going to get you in more trouble.
-The Police will call in the heavier stuff, it's more likely you'll get caught or even killed.
-Guns are expensive and difficult to get hold of.

So since most cops don't have guns, most criminals don't use guns either.

However, I don't think taking away cops guns in the States would solve this, you're too far gone. Not sure what would solve your gun troubles US, sorry 'bout that.

 

[FFHAuthor]

Oh look, it's this thread again with the old 'I live in the UK and blah, blah, blah, we're safer here without guns!' argument that keeps getting trotted out. Or, the 'I live in (insert European country here) and we're safer without guns!'.

I always love these arguments that get trotted out, where they talk about how people are safer in countries without guns, saying that places like the UK is safer (it's not) and that European countries have lower crime rates...

Let's ignore how these countries approach policing, let's ignore how these countries approach crime and punishment, let's ignore how these countries differ culturally, let's ignore how these countries function as societies and what historical precedents they have, let's ignore population and income, let's ignore social structure and how people live, and let's just focus on firearms (but ignore the cultural context when speaking of them, just the presence of guns and not how people in the country have interacted with guns)

That's like a real-estate agent deciding that nobody want's to see an advertised house because of the peeling paint on the window sill and ignoring the Ebola outbreak next door and the volcano erupting down the street.

 

[marfin_]

Good point, also I would like to add that countries like Switzerland have a very low gun crime rate per 100,000 people compared to the U.S. and both have gun laws that allow citizen to carry firearms, and if you look at Switzerland's laws the actually require able bodied men between the age of 18 and 28 to own a gun (part of their citizen militia program). And then there is Mexico which actually has a more restrictive gun law for citizens and it's rate of homicidal incidents that involve guns is almost double the U.S.! There is such a fluctuation between the different statistics that you cannot possibly say that the only factor between these rates is the availability of weapons!

 

[marfin_]

Oh look, it's this thread again with the old 'I live in the UK and blah, blah, blah, we're safer here without guns!' argument that keeps getting trotted out. Or, the 'I live in (insert European country here) and we're safer without guns!'.

I always love these arguments that get trotted out, where they talk about how people are safer in countries without guns, saying that places like the UK is safer (it's not) and that European countries have lower crime rates...

Let's ignore how these countries approach policing, let's ignore how these countries approach crime and punishment, let's ignore how these countries differ culturally, let's ignore how these countries function as societies and what historical precedents they have, let's ignore population and income, let's ignore social structure and how people live, and let's just focus on firearms (but ignore the cultural context when speaking of them, just the presence of guns and not how people in the country have interacted with guns)

That's like a real-estate agent deciding that nobody want's to see an advertised house because of the peeling paint on the window sill and ignoring the Ebola outbreak next door and the volcano erupting down the street.

Good point, also I would like to add that countries like Switzerland have a very low gun crime rate per 100,000 people compared to the U.S. and both have gun laws that allow citizen to carry firearms, and if you look at Switzerland's laws the actually require able bodied men between the age of 18 and 28 to own a gun (part of their citizen militia program). And then there is Mexico which actually has a more restrictive gun law for citizens and it's rate of homicidal incidents that involve guns is almost double the U.S.! There is such a fluctuation between the different statistics that you cannot possibly say that the only factor between these rates is the availability of weapons!

lol, I posted twice I am such a noob...

 

[chadachada123]

Yep this thread had to get posted.

Spoiler

Although it only occurred to me after reading some of the pro-gun Americans responses in comments sections/threads to you-know-what

The question is this: I live in the UK, where firearms are illegal, even the police do not have them, and the rate of gun crime is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than gun crime in the US. I have not even heard what a gun shot sounds like outside of TV and video games - think of that. With this being a fact, how can you people who are pro-guns; that don't like the idea of guns being made illegal, even rationalise why it would be a bad thing?

The only reason for thinking guns are needed, as far as I can tell, is if you think you need to kill somebody for some reason with them.)

Oh for the love of-

Switzerland has private gun ownership and a very high rate of gun ownership, but they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Switzerland

The reason for this and for countries like the UK being so low is because the gang presence is basically non-existent there.

In the US, there is horrible, horrible crime in the cities, where criminals ILLEGALLY own their guns. The only protection from these gangs are personal firearms.

People who buy their guns legally in fact, are five times less likely to commit a felony than the average citizen.

Now, as far as your personal statement that only killers would want to buy a gun, I want to buy a gun for protection from killers or robbers, who, as said above, almost definitely got their guns illegally to begin with.

If Britain had anywhere near the gang presence that the US has, Britain would be in shambles right now, or would be a much worse military-controlled police state in order to fight back against these thugs.

Edit: While I'm freaking typing out this stuff about Switzerland, I end up getting ninja'd. Damn.

 

[marfin_]

Yep this thread had to get posted.

Spoiler

Although it only occurred to me after reading some of the pro-gun Americans responses in comments sections/threads to you-know-what

The question is this: I live in the UK, where firearms are illegal, even the police do not have them, and the rate of gun crime is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than gun crime in the US. I have not even heard what a gun shot sounds like outside of TV and video games - think of that. With this being a fact, how can you people who are pro-guns; that don't like the idea of guns being made illegal, even rationalise why it would be a bad thing?

The only reason for thinking guns are needed, as far as I can tell, is if you think you need to kill somebody for some reason with them.)

Oh for the love of-

Switzerland has private gun ownership and a very high rate of gun ownership, but they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Switzerland

The reason for this and for countries like the UK being so low is because the gang presence is basically non-existent there.

In the US, there is horrible, horrible crime in the cities, where criminals ILLEGALLY own their guns. The only protection from these gangs are personal firearms.

People who buy their guns legally in fact, are five times less likely to commit a felony than the average citizen.

Now, as far as your personal statement that only killers would want to buy a gun, I want to buy a gun for protection from killers or robbers, who, as said above, almost definitely got their guns illegally to begin with.

If Britain had anywhere near the gang presence that the US has, Britain would be in shambles right now, or would be a much worse military-controlled police state in order to fight back against these thugs.

Edit: While I'm freaking typing out this stuff about Switzerland, I end up getting ninja'd. Damn.

Haha sorry dude! =D
But not to mention the U.K. probably does not have problems with border control like we do. Lots of drugs, weapons and criminals are smuggled over here all the time. Not putting the blame on Mexico solely, however things have been getting worse in the southern states along the border.

 

[Sperate]

Just have to say, my family has a long tradition of hunting. And even though we don't really do much (due to most of the hunters in the family getting too old), the guns we have are our link to heritage. I don't have a picture of my great grandfather, but I do have his rifle. With all this talk going, I think people are forgetting some of the other areas of the gun industry. And furthermore, even though I may never go hunting again (I am only 24, just wasn't real into it) I am still glad I know how to properly clean and handle a firearm. I want to teach my children the same, I just hope guns are demonized beyond belief by then.

 

[chadachada123]

Haha sorry dude! =D
But not to mention the U.K. probably does not have problems with border control like we do. Lots of drugs, weapons and criminals are smuggled over here all the time. Not putting the blame on Mexico solely, however things have been getting worse in the southern states along the border.

Oh most definitely. Though, my favorite point about this issue is actually this post:

I think the important difference is that in Britain ordinary cops don't carry guns. This is very important, because that means ordinary criminals don't carry guns either.

Why? Well, you only really need guns if your opposition is also packing guns, and if that's not the case then guns just cause problems.

-Being caught with a gun is going to get you in more trouble.
-The Police will call in the heavier stuff, it's more likely you'll get caught or even killed.
-Guns are expensive and difficult to get hold of.

So since most cops don't have guns, most criminals don't use guns either.

However, I don't think taking away cops guns in the States would solve this, you're too far gone. Not sure what would solve your gun troubles US, sorry 'bout that.

along with this:

Handguns can, and often are, used to not hunt, but protect one's self from dangerous animals in the US, we are a HUGE landmass that has large areas of wilderness. Bears, cougars, mountain lions, Bigfoot are ALL completely real dangers in states like Alaska, Montana, Wyoming, so on. However there are no packs of wild wolfs in Atlanta or New York, so im stressed to find a reason why someone in an urban setting would need a handgun.

I've thankfully mostly answered the last one with my own post and the quoted one.

 

[In Search of Username]

The only reason for thinking guns are needed, as far as I can tell, is if you think you need to kill somebody for some reason with them.

Guns are also used for sport. There are a lot of people who like hunting bucks with a rifle. The United States (of America) expressly gave citizens the right to "keep and bear arms" so that if the government started stepping on toes and shoving it's nose in places it shouldn't, the people would have the power to change that. The founders of the United States didn't want the citizens led around on a leash, but many citizens are.

When was the last time gun ownership actually did anything for the general population's political power, out of interest? Because the place seems to be pretty messed up right now, and yet the politicians are in as secure a position as ever; there's absolutely zero chance of any violent uprising any time soon, and if there was it wouldn't help anything.

The argument of 'criminals can get them anyway' I can somewhat understand, but this one about guns acting as protection against the government is just completely outdated at this point.

 

[Antari]

Its always been as simple as this for me. There will always be crazy people. Taking the public's ability to defend itself away, presents a grave vunerability.

 

[FFHAuthor]

Good point, also I would like to add that countries like Switzerland have a very low gun crime rate per 100,000 people compared to the U.S. and both have gun laws that allow citizen to carry firearms, and if you look at Switzerland's laws the actually require able bodied men between the age of 18 and 28 to own a gun (part of their citizen militia program). And then there is Mexico which actually has a more restrictive gun law for citizens and it's rate of homicidal incidents that involve guns is almost double the U.S.! There is such a fluctuation between the different statistics that you cannot possibly say that the only factor between these rates is the availability of weapons!

lol, I posted twice I am such a noob...

Oh for the love of-

Switzerland has private gun ownership and a very high rate of gun ownership, but they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Switzerland

The reason for this and for countries like the UK being so low is because the gang presence is basically non-existent there.

In the US, there is horrible, horrible crime in the cities, where criminals ILLEGALLY own their guns. The only protection from these gangs are personal firearms.

People who buy their guns legally in fact, are five times less likely to commit a felony than the average citizen.

Now, as far as your personal statement that only killers would want to buy a gun, I want to buy a gun for protection from killers or robbers, who, as said above, almost definitely got their guns illegally to begin with.

If Britain had anywhere near the gang presence that the US has, Britain would be in shambles right now, or would be a much worse military-controlled police state in order to fight back against these thugs.

Edit: While I'm freaking typing out this stuff about Switzerland, I end up getting ninja'd. Damn.

Both of you have excellent points about Switzerland, but I always feel that people overlook the circumstances of the 'UK has no guns and minimal crime' lie that gets trotted out. Law Enforcement is a MASSIVE part of just how those statistics are handled and European Law Enforcement is completely different than that of the US, and that's always ignored in those arguments.

People ignore the fact that Great Britian's violent crime rate Exceeded that of the US after they banned private Handgun ownership, and handgun crime increased as well. They also leave out the fact that those low crime rates in the UK came from a near tripling on government spending in Law Enforcement, Police, Courts, and Prisons. THAT is why the UK has less violent crime than the US, it could be politely termed that the UK is a Police state. People miss the fact that they use their Army for domestic security, have domestic spying agencies whose sole purpose is to spy on their citizens, and have legal traditions that include harsher sentencing, worse prison conditions, and less Civil Rights for the accused than the US. (people always forget that America is completely different from the rest of the world in many, many, MANY ways)

Every other country in Europe mirrors this to one extent or another because of how their governments came into existence. France, Germany, Italy, Russia, Spain, Switzerland, pick any one of then and their Law Enforcement behavior, Government power, and Legal traditions are significantly harsher and less forgiving than the US, enlightened democracies or not. Sure, the US has a massive prison population and armed police, but set against European Law traditions and the legal systems of our friends, US Crime and Punishment is a joke in many respects.

 

[aba1]

Blightly is an island.

It's much easier to regulate what comes into the country.

It's also much easier to regulate firearms in a country that doesn't allow it's general population to carry them than one that does.

In a similar statement oddly enough the US is the reason for 90% of Canada's illegal firearms and almost all gun related crimes are with unregistered guns. When I found this out I thought it said a lot.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

So when will the UK be outlawing knives and glass bottles? This is just from some dude's blog, but it's pertinent to the conversation (any time I bring up statistics, I always lose because someone else brings up more stats).

"based on these statistics, you are more than twice as likely to be a victim of knife crime in the UK as you are to be a victim of gun crime in the US."
http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=1323

What is it with you people in the UK and your knife fetishism? (I'm being sarcastic.) Knife toting knife nuts everywhere. Over here in America, we aren't like that because we have strict knife control legislation. (More sarcasm.) And our books and movies don't glamorize stabbing in quite the way that yours do. (Extra sarcasm.)

I'm again reminded of a Jim Jefferies line "England is the only country in the world where the word glass is also a verb." I've never seen someone get a glass bottle to the face, but from what I understand, it's a common occurrence over in your country. (Sarcasm.) Hell, I don't even know what a glass bottle sounds like when it breaks outside of movies and video games. (Sarcasm.) Over here, we drink out of cans like the rest of the civilized world. When will you LEARN?! (Sarcasm, sarcasm, sarcasm.)

Seriously though, this is what people from the UK sound like when they advocate gun control.

On a more sincere note, the gun control argument falls apart on both sides. No, more guns wouldn't have saved that many people (in the theater disaster) because it was dark, crowded, chaotic, and full of kids who wouldn't be able to carry them anyways and for good reason. And no, gun control wouldn't help either because dude also brought smoke bombs with him. He might have gotten a kick out of shooting people, but he also knew how to get explosives. If he had just gone the bomb route the whole way, he could have killed way more people. Like they do, say for example, in many other parts of the "civilized world."

 

[moopig66]

I believe that the man who committed those murders today bought his guns legally though...

I'm not really rebutting your sentiment... this debate is SO beyond complete understanding at the moment, I. Just. Don't. know.

Yep this thread had to get posted.

Spoiler

Although it only occurred to me after reading some of the pro-gun Americans responses in comments sections/threads to you-know-what

The question is this: I live in the UK, where firearms are illegal, even the police do not have them, and the rate of gun crime is SIGNIFICANTLY lower than gun crime in the US. I have not even heard what a gun shot sounds like outside of TV and video games - think of that. With this being a fact, how can you people who are pro-guns; that don't like the idea of guns being made illegal, even rationalise why it would be a bad thing?

The only reason for thinking guns are needed, as far as I can tell, is if you think you need to kill somebody for some reason with them.)

Oh for the love of-

Switzerland has private gun ownership and a very high rate of gun ownership, but they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Switzerland

The reason for this and for countries like the UK being so low is because the gang presence is basically non-existent there.

In the US, there is horrible, horrible crime in the cities, where criminals ILLEGALLY own their guns. The only protection from these gangs are personal firearms.

People who buy their guns legally in fact, are five times less likely to commit a felony than the average citizen.

Now, as far as your personal statement that only killers would want to buy a gun, I want to buy a gun for protection from killers or robbers, who, as said above, almost definitely got their guns illegally to begin with.

If Britain had anywhere near the gang presence that the US has, Britain would be in shambles right now, or would be a much worse military-controlled police state in order to fight back against these thugs.

Edit: While I'm freaking typing out this stuff about Switzerland, I end up getting ninja'd. Damn.

 

[marfin_]

Blightly is an island.

It's much easier to regulate what comes into the country.

It's also much easier to regulate firearms in a country that doesn't allow it's general population to carry them than one that does.

In a similar statement oddly enough the US is the reason for 90% of Canada's illegal firearms and almost all gun related crimes are with unregistered guns. When I found this out I thought it said a lot.

link please, sounds like some interesting data.

 

[Chunga the Great]

*sigh* When will people realize that Europe is not the same as the U.S and that reading a Wikipedia article on gun control is not the same as having a lifetime of experience living in a pro-gun nation?

It's getting pretty old.

 

[chadachada123]

I believe that the man who committed those murders today bought his guns legally though...

I'm not really rebutting your sentiment... this debate is SO beyond complete understanding at the moment, I. Just. Don't. know.

Oh, whoops, I had meant that whole post for the majority of gun crimes, the gang-member stuff, and not the mass-killer stuff.

I imagine this is going to be a long, longgg couple of weeks of arguing about guns, we best get used to it now, heh.

 

[aba1]

Blightly is an island.

It's much easier to regulate what comes into the country.

It's also much easier to regulate firearms in a country that doesn't allow it's general population to carry them than one that does.

In a similar statement oddly enough the US is the reason for 90% of Canada's illegal firearms and almost all gun related crimes are with unregistered guns. When I found this out I thought it said a lot.

link please, sounds like some interesting data.

Didn't get the information from the net I saw it on the CTV news as a statement from police because they were discussing potential ways to try and improve security at the borders to eliminate illegal gun trafficking.

Wish I had a link I would love to see more detailed statistic myself to be honest.

 

[Terminate421]

Also, how does making guns illegal stop CRIMINALS from getting them? Really, I'm dying to know.

Also, also, whom to trust with my life: myself, who knows how to operate a firearm safely and responsibly; or an incompetent police force? I don't think the decision is a hard one.

This. 100% this.

I always find it fascinating how it seems most people from the UK or Australia or any other country think they are right because their population has less gun crimes than americans. Little do they know that their population is quite smaller than ours.