The_State said:
The thing about your question is that you're operating on a generalization, you even use the term "generally" in your initial asking.
Sounds to me like he was looking for a broader understanding by opening up the question to a board he knows has a large trans population.
TheLaughingMagician said:
So yeah, etymologically "transgenders" might not seem offensive but how it's been used has affected it, just like cromulent wasn't a word until a very clever comedy writer got a voice actor to say it and we all collectively went "yep that's a word now." Even if it doesn't appear in the dictionary.
Except I'm not arguing that etymologically, it's not offensive. I was actually arguing that culturally, your own examples are perfect examples of cultural issues with words that you used as alternatives to the culturally offensive ones. That "gay people" is used contextually, culturally, like "gays" and "the gays." That transgender itself is used as a sneer word.
My subpoint would relate to your telling of the word queer:
Like @SomethingAmyss said, queer is a good example. Most of my gay friends identify as queer, but one guy in particular actually finds ****** less offensive than queer because even without hate behind the word queer in it's most traditional use means weird so it's a label he resents.
I'd make a tangential note that I have no problem identifying as weird. My username is Something Amyss not just because I could cram the name "Amy" into it in a name-based pun, but also because I embrace my inner freak. I myself am strange and unusual. I'm a freak, on or off a leash. However, this is more of an aside. People don't like being called queer for that reason? Fine. Long as they don't tell me how I can use language to describe myself.
When I brought up queer earlier in the thread, it was in the context of an argument over whether it could be used at all. Not whether you should call person X queer, or whether it's a term straight people should use on gays, but on whether or not it should be acceptable to use at all. I can no longer, according to a good chunk of both the gay and trans community, call
myself queer. Or, more accurately, cannot call myself queer without social repercussions of my self-identification.
I'm in my thirties now, and have watched the language surrounding the trans community evolve. That's fine. I've watched a broader, more blanket understanding of trans individuals evolve. That's beyond fine. It's freaking awesome. When I was growing up, the notion that you could be trans and not want a "sex change," if you'll pardon the term, was almost completely alien. You were "pre-op" or "post-op." So changing that is great. Hell, in the last 6 years, my partner has discovered nonbinary identity and now finally feels there is a category that actually describes them. And that's awesome.
The problem I have, then, is the way some words are actually being policed. "transsexual" is often deemed unacceptable, even if the person feels the label fits them. People who have called themselves genderqueer are under fire because of the notion that "queer" is now an unacceptable word (which i why I chose that specific word, because it impacts both LGB and T individuals). I usually say "trans" or "transfolk" to jump around the issue, but...I know that at some point in the future, assuming someone doesn't murder me for being "queer," those will come under fire, too. Basically, as a term catches on in the mainstream, it will become a slur in some fashion. We're seeing this with transgender already. Worse, because "transgender" is already a clumsy word when used in a descriptive fashion. Kyuubi indicated the best case scenario for "transgenders" was that it was used by people who are totally ignorant to trans people, but I doubt that applies to HappyNinja. In my experience, it's often used by people who don't know how to conjugate "transgender."
Hell, Saelune has used "transgendered" before, and a lot of transfolk don't like that. I'm not saying she's wrong to say it, but I've been yelled at for defending the use of the word by other trans people.
Having been policed before, both on my identity and how I choose to express it, by people in this very thread no less, I think this is a germane issue.
But more specifically, there's an issue here with the notion that "gay people" is somehow socially not going to carry the same baggage as "gays" or "the gays." Especially since the former is still used by gays. I don't know anyone who calls themselves "the gays," but I can point you to a ton of gays, lesbians, and bisexuals who will call themselves "gays," "lesbians" or "bisexuals." Or, I could, if they wanted anything to do with a gaming site. For some reason, there's kind of a stigma about video games and homo/transphobia.
I don't personally know any trans person who uses "transgenders," but I do know plenty of people who have been policed for their "problematic" self-identity. Myself included.
As I said before, this is what a "Social Justice Warrior" ostensibly is: someone who is so progressive they will erase me.
Now, it occurs to me, I don't know anything about you really. Just that I like your Andy Kaufman avatar and a lot of your posts. But I don't know if/what minority groups you might belong to. Could be none. But if you might try, imagine any group you are a part of actively precluding you in the name of progress. I don't know, hopefully I get my point across. My track record is kind of poor, and the answers I've gotten on here effectively boil down to "I don't like being discriminated against or erased from our culture, but it's okay if I do it to others." Do unto others that which you would not want done to you.
Some days, I find the trans community so toxic I really wish I could get out. No, obviously #notalltranspeople, but still.
