Question, If Anita Sarkeesian is Right, why is Jack Thompson Wrong?

[NuclearKangaroo]

snip

god my head hurts from all of this

look, bro, mate, you keep talking about how i cant meansure the impact of violent video games on violence in a society because of a bunch of factors

doesnt that mean that violent video games dont affect the behaviour of people any more than the intrinsic values of society?

honestly, it makes no sense to censor media just because it MIGHT have a very slight effect on people's behaviour, specially when there are so many other factors in socity that have a much more meaninful impact, stuff like upbringing, family, school, friends, etc. things that affect the way you behave much more than video games, things that let humans know, froma very young age that actions have consequences


a person who can be driven to sociopathy by a video game or movie is like a building that crumbles under the faintiest breeze, do you blame the wind or the architect?

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Because unless I'm mistaken Anita Sarkeesian isn't trying to get all games banned everywhere and is instead just trying to draw attention to issues within the industry that should be addressed (even if she is preaching to the choir).

 

[80sboy]

God I love Anita Sarkissian threads, I love how everyone always stays open minded and objective about her videos. And in how it in NO WAYS spawns a bunch of 'white knighting' and (in lack of a better word) 'black knighting' amongst gamers.

-_-

 

[Skatologist]

@The_Kodu: This good enough for you?

Spoiler: Sarkeesian playing SNES

 

[JediMB]

We also have photographic evidence of her playing video games as a child, as well as photographs of her research material for the current Tropes vs Women series (and claims that she has been playing them).

Not to mention that she in that video stated pretty clearly why, in 2010, she didn't play video games: because of how the industry has come to focus on violent domination. Well, at least the most visible parts of it.

Now, personally I'd rather not call myself a gamer anymore. Not because I don't play a lot of video games, nor because I want to disassociate myself with gaming's widespread toxic culture. I would reject the label because it's used to build walls between people and making video games less accessible on a social level.

I don't think I've been made aware of these photographs and they don't appear to be a simple google search away. Care to provide them either in embedded or link form ?

I'm basically just scrolling through the Feminist Frequency Tumblr to find the relevant photos, because I'm not sure how to find them through Google either...

Anita, age 10, playing Super Mario World [http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/37077910021/an-old-family-photo-of-me-playing-super-mario]

Okay, this I found by googling "sarkeesian stacks of games" [http://imgur.com/c9jN4jK]

Bonus picture: Anita playing Night In The Woods at GDC [http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/81716898556/i-got-to-demo-the-beautiful-upcoming-indie-game]

Bonus: unboxed 3DS XL [http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/29802889757/unboxing-the-nintendo-3ds-xl]

Bonus: Birthday Buffy [http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/29497126971/look-what-i-got-for-my-birthday-this-year]

As for being a gamer, it's the name for being a fan of playing video games.

It doesn't really create walls anymore than being a fan of anything else be it a Beliber a Little Monster or Trekkie does. The only negative connotation really is people know not to talk to you about the subject if they aren't at all interested or don't want to know / learn about it

Thing is, once we have the term "gamer" we come up with things like "casual gamer", "hardcore gamer", "non-gamer" and "not a real gamer". With a lot of people, you'll find that you get very different answers depending on if you ask "are you a gamer?" or "do you like to play video games?" and at the end of the day I think the latter is a whole lot more important than the former.

 

[Artaneius]

The bottom line is this. What do you think would happen if a bunch of men went to the Hallmark Channels website and starting moaning and bitching about how the majority of movies shown are mostly woman and family oriented and not being more manly? Most of the people that like the Hallmark Channel the way it is would be pretty pissed off and tell you to fuck off, watch something else, and not ruin their station. That's how gamers feel about feminists trying to impose political correctness to AAA games. Games are FOR GAMERS, and guess what they're a HUGE DIVERSITY of games for gamers to choose from. Play the small amount of games that chooses to be politically correct and be happy with it. Stop trying to change the whole industry for the feelings of a few who already changed enough in the real world as is. The line needs to be drawn somewhere.

 

[FoolKiller]

Now then, answer me this, why is it that Anita is right but Jack Thompson is wrong, its basically the same thing, video games will influence us to do something wrong.

They're not the same thing but I can see your point. Let's assume that one follows the other. Your logic is still erroneous. You start with an assumption. For Jack Thompson to be right, you would first need Anita to be right.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

snip

god my head hurts from all of this

look, bro, mate, you keep talking about how i cant meansure the impact of violent video games on violence in a society because of a bunch of factors

doesnt that mean that violent video games dont affect the behaviour of people any more than the intrinsic values of society?

You're approching this in the wrong order.

This is how you don't do it:

Come up with an idea. Look at everything to find what evidence you can use to support the idea, and discard the rest. (Which I should add, a common tactic of creationists)

This is how you should do it:

Come up with a hypothesis. Use a scientific study to test this hypothesis using at least one control group and at least one exposure group. Record observations. Examine results. Come up with multiple hypothesis to explain the results. Test out each of these different hypothesis in their own different exposure groups, if not in their own separate study. Record observations. Extrapolate the most consistent data to the general populace.

Hell, even that is missing a ton of steps, but that is a simplification of how you should do it. You're doing the former. Here's your process is presuming that videogames do not cause violence, and looking at crime rates with an incalculable amount of variables, often compounding with one another, using an imagined number in your head of what how much effect you think videogames would cause if they did, and then, shockingly, not finding it because it the number was arbitrary and baseless.

honestly, it makes no sense to censor media just because it MIGHT have a very slight effect on people's behaviour, specially when there are so many other factors in socity that have a much more meaninful impact, stuff like upbringing, family, school, friends, etc. things that affect the way you behave much more than video games, things that let humans know, froma very young age that actions have consequences

I never called for censorship, but I cannot in any degree of intellectual honesty say that media, let alone violent media, has absolutely no influence on people behaviors. I can argue that the negative effects that may be induced by such don't merit a call for censorship, but I will not say that media does not have any influence on a person's beliefs or behaviors.

media can influence people but not unwittingly, atleast not to a significant degree, theres no statistical evidence of this

 

[Skull Bearer]

The bottom line is this. What do you think would happen if a bunch of men went to the Hallmark Channels website and starting moaning and bitching about how the majority of movies shown are mostly woman and family oriented and not being more manly? Most of the people that like the Hallmark Channel the way it is would be pretty pissed off and tell you to fuck off, watch something else, and not ruin their station. That's how gamers feel about feminists trying to impose political correctness to AAA games. Games are FOR GAMERS, and guess what they're a HUGE DIVERSITY of games for gamers to choose from. Play the small amount of games that chooses to be politically correct and be happy with it. Stop trying to change the whole industry for the feelings of a few who already changed enough in the real world as is. The line needs to be drawn somewhere.

In your analogy, that would be like if every blockbuster movie was targeted only towards women. Then yes, there would be something to complain about. AAA games are not a tiny niche market. They are the blockbusters of the videogame world. So yes, asking for the most visible and influential section of gaming to be more inclusive and open to others beside white straight men is fair.

 

[Skatologist]

The bottom line is this. What do you think would happen if a bunch of men went to the Hallmark Channels website and starting moaning and bitching about how the majority of movies shown are mostly woman and family oriented and not being more manly? Most of the people that like the Hallmark Channel the way it is would be pretty pissed off and tell you to fuck off, watch something else, and not ruin their station. That's how gamers feel about feminists trying to impose political correctness to AAA games. Games are FOR GAMERS, and guess what they're a HUGE DIVERSITY of games for gamers to choose from. Play the small amount of games that chooses to be politically correct and be happy with it. Stop trying to change the whole industry for the feelings of a few who already changed enough in the real world as is. The line needs to be drawn somewhere.

You had to dig that obscure to find something for a mostly female audience?! Next to nobody is a die hard fan of Hallmark! Do some fans like it the way it is? I guess...but even with me liking the cheese and stories of some of the films I've seen from them, I'd at least want them to improve in story telling and humor. Also, when did anybody get angry at a family movie/game for being a family movie/game?! Impose political correctness? I'm sorry if some of us want to feel included in a community that largely thinks we don't exist. "Stop trying to change the industry..." what, is the industry perfect now? Are we making the best stories in history now? Are all the gaming industries decisions perfect now? What, do you want gaming to only be a "guy" thing forever? Seriously, you NEED to explain.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

media can influence people but not unwittingly, atleast not to a significant degree, theres no statistical evidence of this

Just do a single search of "Media Influence" in Google Scholar. There's studies back in the 80s' showing up, let alone studies that come up from this year alone. Just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean that they don't exist.

im finding both articles that contradict and support that theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_influence#Media-influenced_violence

look, if media influenced violence we should be able to see some statistical evidence, such as spikes in criminal behaviour right after a new violent film or video game gets released, because even if the media could significantly affect the mental state of a person, that does not mean the person will act violent

 

[Pogilrup]

media can influence people but not unwittingly, atleast not to a significant degree, theres no statistical evidence of this

Just do a single search of "Media Influence" in Google Scholar. There's studies back in the 80s' showing up, let alone studies that come up from this year alone. Just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean that they don't exist.

im finding both articles that contradict and support that theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_influence#Media-influenced_violence

look, if media influenced violence we should be able to see some statistical evidence, such as spikes in criminal behaviour right after a new violent film or video game gets released, because even if the media could significantly affect the mental state of a person, that does not mean the person will act violent

For the love of!

One movie, one TV show, one book, one game, one work alone in one instance does diddly squat.

Every movie and TV you've watch, every book you've read, every song you've heard, every game you've played, every advertisement you've saw, combined with all the influence of school, friends, family, and life events up to this exact moment in time is what made you "you" in terms of beliefs and value.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

media can influence people but not unwittingly, atleast not to a significant degree, theres no statistical evidence of this

Just do a single search of "Media Influence" in Google Scholar. There's studies back in the 80s' showing up, let alone studies that come up from this year alone. Just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean that they don't exist.

im finding both articles that contradict and support that theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_influence#Media-influenced_violence

look, if media influenced violence we should be able to see some statistical evidence, such as spikes in criminal behaviour right after a new violent film or video game gets released, because even if the media could significantly affect the mental state of a person, that does not mean the person will act violent

For the love of!

One movie, one TV show, one book, one game, one work alone in one instance does diddly squat.

Every movie and TV you've watch, every book you've read, every song you've heard, every game you've played, every advertisement you've saw, combined with all the influence of school, friends, family, and life events up to this exact moment in time is what made you "you" in terms of beliefs and value.

how many people abide by the doom code? or the mortal kombet code?

plus if even one of the best selling games of all time such as GTAV "does diddly squat", it kind of refutes the whole idea doesnt it?

plus human beings can distinguish between fantasy and reality, real events have much more impact in the way we behave than fictitious ones

 

[Artaneius]

The bottom line is this. What do you think would happen if a bunch of men went to the Hallmark Channels website and starting moaning and bitching about how the majority of movies shown are mostly woman and family oriented and not being more manly? Most of the people that like the Hallmark Channel the way it is would be pretty pissed off and tell you to fuck off, watch something else, and not ruin their station. That's how gamers feel about feminists trying to impose political correctness to AAA games. Games are FOR GAMERS, and guess what they're a HUGE DIVERSITY of games for gamers to choose from. Play the small amount of games that chooses to be politically correct and be happy with it. Stop trying to change the whole industry for the feelings of a few who already changed enough in the real world as is. The line needs to be drawn somewhere.

You had to dig that obscure to find something for a mostly female audience?! Next to nobody is a die hard fan of Hallmark! Do some fans like it the way it is? I guess...but even with me liking the cheese and stories of some of the films I've seen from them, I'd at least want them to improve in story telling and humor. Also, when did anybody get angry at a family movie/game for being a family movie/game?! Impose political correctness? I'm sorry if some of us want to feel included in a community that largely thinks we don't exist. "Stop trying to change the industry..." what, is the industry perfect now? Are we making the best stories in history now? Are all the gaming industries decisions perfect now? What, do you want gaming to only be a "guy" thing forever? Seriously, you NEED to explain.

I expect those who desire change to respect the right of entertainment based cultures to not have to change. To put it bluntly, if the gaming community itself doesn't want change, then what authority does anyone have to force them? The gaming culture especially on the internet unlike cultures of the real world are not bound by international treaties to be forced to make compromises to minorities. The gaming culture that started with the arcade days are based on an entertainment medium. Whatever the majority wants in gaming culture is what they will get, no matter who it offends. As long as the major companies make their money, they don't care either who they offend either. All they have to do is make an simple apology and boom life goes on and they continue to make money appeasing their core audience.

Unlike individuals who make strong comments and can get seriously punished for it. A company decision unless its through money and their bottom-line can't be seriously punished. Unlike the real woman rights movement, where politicians would of lost their votes and positions of power if they were against it... Gaming companies aren't politicians and their core audience aren't feminists. Money rules companies and unless you hurt their pockets they have every right to listen to it's main core audience and downright ignore minorities if those minorities aren't in control of their bottom-line.

Maybe one day the change will happen. Personally I'm not against the change. I am however; against people thinking it's their god given right force changes to happen whether right or wrong against a culture that has constantly shown it's not ready or willing to change yet.

 

[Bocaj2000]

Sexism in gaming is a reflection of current culture, morals, and values. Anita never claims that games make you sexist. She instead claims that contemporary tropes are reflections of contemporary society and reinforce negative behavior.

Violence in gaming is also a reflection of culture, morals, and values. Jack Thomson believes violence in video games transcend basic reinforcement and delves into influence and causality.

Does this help clarify things?