Question regarding The Institute in Fallout 4 (WARNING- INEVITABLE SPOILERS)

[Callate]

I'm a bit "late to the game", so to speak; I know a lot of people have probably been finished with Fallout 4 for some time, while I've been happily paddling along on the surface, ignoring anything that might move the main plot forward wile I rose to a high experience level.

Anyway, I only just got to "The Institute", and I've got to ask:

At any time do they ever actually say why they're doing this whole "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" thing?

It seems to me, at this point, that they're mind-bogglingly willing to give away all the holy secrets of their secret organization in the name of "convincing me" of the righteousness of their cause, but no one has actually spelled out for me what their cause is or how they're intending to implement it. It's somehow "for the good of humanity", or at least humanity as defined as a few dozen non-irradiated people living underground.

But if their plan is replacing humanity with synths, it seems like they're mostly pretty dead-set that synths are not and never will be people. I haven't seen anything that suggests they ever plan to return to the surface en masse themselves, and after more than a hundred years there's little to suggest they ever will. The programs that combine humanity and machinery (a.k.a. cyborgs) have been shelved indefinitely.

I'm left with a small group of self-appointed elites who deny the "person-hood" of the lives they've made so they can continue to treat them like expendable slaves while treating all human life on the surface as casually expendable- indeed, something they can not only kill but @#$% with at a whim in the long-term, replacing loved ones with artificial versions with their own agendas who might leave or murder friends and family at the drop of a hat.

They're serial killers, and the more amiable serial killers are being slowly degenerated by an internal secret police force that doesn't even respect the rights and lives of its own.

And I'm supposed to feel this huge conflict because (allegedly at least) my 60-year-old son is in charge of this crap factory?

Yeah, that's too bad, and all, kid. But if I had actually gotten a hand in raising you (one of so many crimes to lay at the feet of your "friends"), I like to believe you would have made better choices. Son, I am disappoint.

Have I just managed not to ask the right person the right questions? Because it sure seems like the worst convincing/indoctrination attempt in the history of such. I'm wondering if this is what critics meant when they felt the main quest was underwhelming.

 

[IceForce]

At any time do they ever actually say why they're doing this whole "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" thing?

Nope, nope, nope, they don't. In fact, in previous FO4 threads on this forum, this is a pretty common complaint.

The MAIN reason why the Institute is feared so much is because of the whole synth imposter / synth replacement thing.
If the Institute had've (covertly) sent gen 3 synths into the Commonwealth as their own entity (and NOT as 'replacements' of actual people), then the Institute would be nowhere close to the bogeyman it currently is. But instead they deliberately create synth 'copies' of existing human beings, and for what? The entire thing is completely stupid, and a massive case of the Institute shooting themselves in the foot.

Considering how much of a part this 'replacement' plot device plays in the main story, one has to wonder why it comes across as half-baked as it is.
My guess is that it was a late addition by the writers, who felt the Institute wasn't 'evil' enough, so they made up the imposter/replacement plot device to try and make them more evil.

 

[DefunctTheory]

At any time do they ever actually say why they're doing this whole "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" thing?

It is kind of explained in game, if you can piece some of the stuff together.

Basically, the Institute needs people on the surface to do some stuff, and Kellogg can't do it all.

1. Experimentation - You can get some quest to provide some supply drops to Synth infiltrators who are running experiments for the Institute. They are unwilling to send actual scientist up to do these test, so they infiltrate the wasteland and let the robots deal with it.

2. Keeping Track of the Wasteland - They make some offhand remarks about keeping track on the progress of the above people.

3. Hindering Wasteland Efforts - They infiltrate to throw the Wasteland off balance, to make sure they don't advance or get to a point where they might be able to find the Institute.

4. For the lulz.

It's poorly explained, and a lot of it boils down to 'Terminator was a good movie, lets do that.' Also, it must be noted that the reason this doesn't come up too often that is given is that the Institute is pretty much done doing it by the time you come around. They're experiments are almost finished, and they've already nabbed most of what they need, so they've already dialed down on the replacement program. With a few exceptions, continued infiltration is simply a left over fear the Wastelanders hold because of the past, not because of something that's currently going on.

I don't really blame you for having to ask. Bethesda really fucked the factions up this time around.

 

[Joseph Harrison]

Well the Institute's main goal is to keep the Institute alive, a lot of the time they replace people who can run experiments or hold positions of power in communities or who have the supplies they need. They do not currently believe that synths are sentient sapient life but they do believe that they could one day become fully realized artificial intelligence. Basically, they just want to stay alive until they have "redefined mankind" which is a goal, even the Institute is divided on, as evidenced by the arguing among the Board of Directors.

 

[sXeth]

Its barely glossed over in the terminal entries in Virgil's old lab, but at least some of it was them kidnapping test subjects for their FEV experiments, but they don't want retribution coming for them, so they replaced the people. Of course, that logic falls apart the moment a single synth is discovered.

The other explanation half-tossed up is spying/controlling the Commonwealth, but that makes no sense why they'd replace people instead of simply manufacturing new ones to be spies. Nor does it ever mention how they get people's memories in order to make the duplicates. Add on that we never see anyone of importance being a synth replacement other then the random encounter with Preston's synth clone (which makes no sense, because it can happen when Preston is just a refugee and not 2nd-in-command of your army.


For my best fan-theorying at it. Whoever made the original synths clearly intended to use them to immortalize or duplicate essential scientists to keep their work going. Which is why they made synths like Nick, who has memories downloaded into him. At some point though (possibly due to the Broken Mask incident where the malfunctioning synth went on a rampage in Diamond City), the faction in the Institute rose up and decided that synths were impractical as replacement bodies, and delegated them to slave status. Most of the replacement synths sent up since are to keep people on guard and defensive, trying to protect themselves, rather then seek out the Institute offensively. We don't see a replacement done directly in the storyline, so its possible that having seeded the "urban legend" of the synths, they've actually ceased it entirely now.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

The institute is generally poorly explained, and its difficult to get a logical anything out of them really. They seem to be splintered badly between goals, and end game. Many parts making a whole WTF.

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

The institute is generally poorly explained, and its difficult to get a logical anything out of them really. They seem to be splintered badly between goals, and end game. Many parts making a whole WTF.

Let's not pretend that it's The Institutes fault that they're stupid. Its just that Bethesda's writing is fucking awful.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

The institute is generally poorly explained, and its difficult to get a logical anything out of them really. They seem to be splintered badly between goals, and end game. Many parts making a whole WTF.

Let's not pretend that it's The Institutes fault that they're stupid. Its just that Bethesda's writing is fucking awful.

I don't know. It seems like they're founded with good intentions, but different groups have differing ideas of good intentions, and because they're not unified on common ground all too well, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. They're supposed to be a confusing array of people that you aren't supposed to try and figure out as a whole. then again, I didn't follow the institute very long, so I don't know the whole story, just that what I have heard is headache inducing.

 

[IceForce]

Add on that we never see anyone of importance being a synth replacement other then the random encounter with Preston's synth clone

Not quite. The mayor of Diamond City is also a synth replacement.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Political_Leanings
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/In_Sheep's_Clothing

But there ends the extent of the 'influential' synth replacements. Just that one. All the other synth imposters are small-fry nobodies that don't have much of an influence over anything at all.
(EDIT: Forgot about Danse. Not my fault he's so unmemorable! Still, within the Brotherhood he really only has 'influence' over a relatively small taskforce, and that's about it.)

 

[JamesStone]

Add on that we never see anyone of importance being a synth replacement other then the random encounter with Preston's synth clone

Not quite. The mayor of Diamond City is also a synth replacement.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Political_Leanings
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/In_Sheep's_Clothing

But there ends the extent of the 'influential' synth replacements. Just that one. All the other synth imposters are small-fry nobodies that don't have much of an influence over anything at all.
(EDIT: Forgot about Danse. Not my fault he's so unmemorable! Still, within the Brotherhood he really only has 'influence' over a relatively small taskforce, and that's about it.)

1. Danse isn't an Institute Infiltration Unit, he's a Railroad-freed Synth that was sent go the Capital Wasteland, like Harkness/A3-21, and ended up joining the Brotherhood.

2. He's Maxson's most trusted Paladin, and a runner-up to the position of Sentinel. I'd say that's a lot more influence than "just a small task force".

 

[Trunkage]

Yep, its terrible writing

Just as the Wild Hunt's story is stupid

The Wild Hunt attacks every plane of existence that hasn't been destroyed by the Big Bad

Instead of recruiting allies from said planes - because, you know, they will be in danger soon too, thus might have a vested interest in saving the multiverse - they destroy everyone

It's best not to look at what video game stories are really saying because they are the worst

 

[DefunctTheory]

Yep, its terrible writing

Just as the Wild Hunt's story is stupid

The Wild Hunt attacks every plane of existence that hasn't been destroyed by the Big Bad

Instead of recruiting allies from said planes - because, you know, they will be in danger soon too, thus might have a vested interest in saving the multiverse - they destroy everyone

It's best not to look at what video game stories are really saying because they are the worst

I hate derailing, but...

1. There's exactly one person in the multiverse capable of fighting entropy personified, and its the person the Wild Hunt is searching for. Everyone else is fodder on a cosmic level.

2. The Hunt has no intention of fighting the 'big bad.' They want to migrate to a world that's not next on the chopping block, and they need someone who can naturally cross worlds to do it.

Pretty much, the Wild Hunt has zero reason to recruit or seek allies.

 

[Callate]

It seems like the general consensus is that this is one of those "1. Replace human beings with synths... 99. Profit" kind of things. A bit disappointing. It's rather amazing that in a game that had to be scripted out this carefully, no one thought to say, "So he's expressed disdain for everyone on the surface, his conviction that synths are just machines, and referred to his mother's murder as 'collateral damage'... say, shouldn't Father explain why his faction is the good guys anyway? Just, you know, make some kind of case?!"

My own sneaking suspicion is that at some point in the game's early story-planning stages the idea was that the player him- or her- self would be revealed to have been replaced by a synth. Perhaps, as "twists" go, it would have been a tad predictable and hackneyed, but I think it still might have made for a more interesting story.

There are also some interesting contrasts/parallels that could have been made between the Brotherhood of Steel who utilize and preserve technology on the surface versus the Institute that continues to develop technology beneath the surface but stays mostly isolated from it.

I'm still enjoying the game quite a lot, but I think if Bethesda had spent another six months hammering on this one, it might have been for the better.

 

[RedDeadFred]

I think it's mostly for information and spying. Although, some of it comes down to escaped synths getting new identities and then replacing the existing person.

It's poorly explained either way. My first priority as leader of the Institute would be to do away with this pointless system.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

There's also the question of why the Institute sets Gen 3 synths loose on the surface to replace people, but at the same time they want to reign the Gen 3s in to stop them from going to the surface. What?

 

[Souplex]

At any time do they ever actually say why they're doing this whole "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" thing?

It is kind of explained in game, if you can piece some of the stuff together.

Basically, the Institute needs people on the surface to do some stuff, and Kellogg can't do it all.

1. Experimentation - You can get some quest to provide some supply drops to Synth infiltrators who are running experiments for the Institute. They are unwilling to send actual scientist up to do these test, so they infiltrate the wasteland and let the robots deal with it.

2. Keeping Track of the Wasteland - They make some offhand remarks about keeping track on the progress of the above people.

3. Hindering Wasteland Efforts - They infiltrate to throw the Wasteland off balance, to make sure they don't advance or get to a point where they might be able to find the Institute.

4. For the lulz.

It's poorly explained, and a lot of it boils down to 'Terminator was a good movie, lets do that.' Also, it must be noted that the reason this doesn't come up too often that is given is that the Institute is pretty much done doing it by the time you come around. They're experiments are almost finished, and they've already nabbed most of what they need, so they've already dialed down on the replacement program. With a few exceptions, continued infiltration is simply a left over fear the Wastelanders hold because of the past, not because of something that's currently going on.

I don't really blame you for having to ask. Bethesda really fucked the factions up this time around.

5. To gather resources the Institute can't make on their own.

 

[Odbarc]

Finding out your own kid is the Institute boogey man Leader is kind of like being on the other side when Dad finds out you nuked Megaton.
I never much cared for his disapproval until I found myself on the other side, you know?

 

[ArcaneGamer]

At any time do they ever actually say why they're doing this whole "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" thing?

Nope, nope, nope, they don't. In fact, in previous FO4 threads on this forum, this is a pretty common complaint.

The MAIN reason why the Institute is feared so much is because of the whole synth imposter / synth replacement thing.
If the Institute had've (covertly) sent gen 3 synths into the Commonwealth as their own entity (and NOT as 'replacements' of actual people), then the Institute would be nowhere close to the bogeyman it currently is. But instead they deliberately create synth 'copies' of existing human beings, and for what? The entire thing is completely stupid, and a massive case of the Institute shooting themselves in the foot.

Considering how much of a part this 'replacement' plot device plays in the main story, one has to wonder why it comes across as half-baked as it is.
My guess is that it was a late addition by the writers, who felt the Institute wasn't 'evil' enough, so they made up the imposter/replacement plot device to try and make them more evil.

And it could have easily been fixed, if they said they were from a Vault of scientists, and said they were cyborgs! I can think of so many ways this could have gone. If they wanted a blantly evil group, use the Gunners, or Heck the Brotherhood!

 

[Trunkage]

Yep, its terrible writing

Just as the Wild Hunt's story is stupid

The Wild Hunt attacks every plane of existence that hasn't been destroyed by the Big Bad

Instead of recruiting allies from said planes - because, you know, they will be in danger soon too, thus might have a vested interest in saving the multiverse - they destroy everyone

It's best not to look at what video game stories are really saying because they are the worst

I hate derailing, but...

1. There's exactly one person in the multiverse capable of fighting entropy personified, and its the person the Wild Hunt is searching for. Everyone else is fodder on a cosmic level.

2. The Hunt has no intention of fighting the 'big bad.' They want to migrate to a world that's not next on the chopping block, and they need someone who can naturally cross worlds to do it.

Pretty much, the Wild Hunt has zero reason to recruit or seek allies.

I hear you. I think these are as flimsy reasons as any of the silliness with the Institute.

The nation where the Wild Hunt comes from has been on the ropes for a very long time and they know colonising is just a stop gap. They admit they have lost the war.

Also, the reason they don't find Ciri is because they reach where they detect her, then kill everything in sight. They don't really interrogate (or at least effectively). Maybe instead of killing everything, talking to them would be fine. Geralt proves that physical power doesn't matter as much as information. I know they see everyone on that plane as dirt but its a stupid plane and they have used it for years. Very unsuccessfully.

As for actual colonising, they are once again doing a terrible job.

Now maybe its not as silly as the Institute, but I think its at least pretty close