Racism in Skyrim?

[Justanewguy]

For the record, I think it's funny how there are two different takes on the Redguards. On one side some people are saying they're there to kill an innocent woman for speaking out. On the other is a group saying that they're exacting justice on a criminal. It's these shades of grey that make the game worthwhile. Right and wrong are not really black and white here. What's true? It's hard to say, as there's no way to check the facts, but I'm impressed with what they did.

Even a bad guy tends to believe he's doing good things. They managed to give a quest that shows just that. That's impressive, and I'd like to see more of that.

Its only grey because one half doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about.

Spoiler

The Alkir are there to kidnap ALIVE the woman that sold out the Redguard to the Altmeri during the war. She is not innocent, she is not getting killed for free speech, she is being taken back for trial for treason.

Uh...I think you completely missed what I said. I look at this like Quantum Theory (bare with me). There are two possibilities, based on the actions of the player (which side you choose to help). If you choose to help the woman, then the Redgaurds are said to be there to kidnap or kill an innocent woman. If you choose to help the Redguards, the woman is said to be guilty of treason.

There is no way to be sure she is ACTUALLY guilty of treason, which is why I say it's like Quantum Theory. There are two outcomes. One where she is innocent, one where she is guilty. If you choose to believe she's innocent, the game plays out as if she is. Likewise, if you believe she's guilty, the game plays out as if she is. Essentially you open the box to find out whether Schrodinger's Cat is innocent or guilty. It's neither and both before you open the box, but once open you observe the state according to the laws of nature.

So...in essence, I'm saying you're wrong. The evidence the Redguards have is purely their word, they never present proof that she is guilty. They SAY she is, and if you help them then the assumption is that she is, but there is no tangible proof to say she really is. On the flip side, there's no proof she's innocent. She says she is, and if you help her then the assumption is that she is, but there's no tangible proof acquitting her of anything either.

 

[Char-Nobyl]

I first realised this just after I picked a race. I chose to play as a Nord which immediately brought the guard with the check list great joy. He was also very taken aback when after he gave his "Norse power" speech the front woman still ordered me to my death. This made me realsise that this game might have a slight Norse supiriourity thing going.

Well, yeah, but not really for that scene. The guy was a Nord legionnaire who could see that you were a Nord coming back to his homeland and ending up at the wrong place and the wrong time, which his Imperial officer couldn't.

When I entered Whiterun I saw a group of Redguards being herassed by Whiterun guards.

Wait, what? You mean the scimitar-wielding mercenaries being refused entry into the town by the guards?

The guards where going on about how the Redguards only wanted to come in to rape children and abduct woman to sell into slavery. When I went up to one of the Redguards, he said that they where just looking for a friend and if I could help.

A 'friend'? Did you actually do that quest? They were looking for a Redguard political refugee with the intent of murdering her. The guards didn't let them in not because they were Redguards, but because they were wearing the uniform of a notoriously ethically-unbound mercenary outfit and were showing up at the gates with swords at their hips looking for a local Redguard and refusing to state their intentions.

Whew. That was a long sentence. Get all that?

Things like this kept happening throughout the game, and I didn't make a post about it earlier because I thought Yatshee would bring it up in his review of Skyrim but he didn't. So I want to know if I am the only one who has experienced this racism, and if you have, share your tales of witnessed racist actions within Skrim.

No shit, Sherlock. That was supposed to be a point of the game. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks might have a lot of valid points, but they're ultimately as xenophobic as they come. Their platform that 'Skyrim is for the Nords' is cited frequently by both their opponents and themselves.

 

[Char-Nobyl]

For the record, I think it's funny how there are two different takes on the Redguards. On one side some people are saying they're there to kill an innocent woman for speaking out. On the other is a group saying that they're exacting justice on a criminal. It's these shades of grey that make the game worthwhile. Right and wrong are not really black and white here. What's true? It's hard to say, as there's no way to check the facts, but I'm impressed with what they did.

Even a bad guy tends to believe he's doing good things. They managed to give a quest that shows just that. That's impressive, and I'd like to see more of that.

Its only grey because one half doesn't know what the fuck they are talking about.

Spoiler

The Alkir are there to kidnap ALIVE the woman that sold out the Redguard to the Altmeri during the war. She is not innocent, she is not getting killed for free speech, she is being taken back for trial for treason.

Ah, you make an excellent point. I'd edit my previous post to put in the correct info, but I'm rather lazy.

That being said, that puts them in the same category as Mossad agents...and the Whiterun guards are rather justified in not letting them into the city.

 

[TheCommanders]

Thalmor patrols want to kidnap you and torture you so you will confess to something you did not do; they hate humans as an inferior species THAT FUCKING MUCH!

Personally I imagined they were agents of the spanish inquisition. Their presence was rather unexpected.

 

[LorienvArden]

I first realised this just after I picked a race. I chose to play as a Nord which immediately brought the guard with the check list great joy. [...]

Things like this kept happening throughout the game, and I didn't make a post about it earlier because I thought Yatshee would bring it up in his review of Skyrim but he didn't.

1. Yes, there is plenty of racism in Skyrim.
2. It has been in Oblivion as well and very likely in the other games from TES-Series.
3. No, it is not a bad thing

You do have to keep in mind that this is set in medival times. While fictionary and ladden with fantastic elements, it keeps close to the believes and mindsets of medival folk. It wouldn't be a very good setting for adventure if there wasn't tension between different people, not only of the same race (human, elven, orkish) but also of different heritage (nord,breton,imperial,dunmer,altmer,bosmer...)
If everybody accepted anyone, the setting would feel unrealistic and shale - even utopian science fiction like gene rodenberrys "star trek" has 'racism' in the form of normal humans beeing afraid of Klingon Warriors because they seem aggressive and alien.

Skyrim gives you the option to follow two valid options on the imperial vs. Stormcloak question: stability and prosperity vs. patriotism and tradition.
Thats what makes it a GOOD experience. You can explore the problem from different angles
and learn more about why the problem arose and overcome it in a way thats satisfying for you.

Uh...I think you completely missed what I said. I look at this like Quantum Theory (bare with me). There are two possibilities, based on the actions of the player (which side you choose to help).

Actually there is a third possibility AND a definite solution to the problem:
1) The Alakir are right and the women is lying
2) The Alakir are lying and the women is right
3) The Alakir and the women are lying
Solution:

Spoiler

You kill the Warriors and the women and say that they all where guilty- since no other witnesess or proof are available, you alone make up the truth.
Problem ?

 

[Jinx_Dragon]

That squatter camp is a roving band of Khajit merchants. Its the caravan and they sell some useful stuff from time to time. They don't raise children on the caravan because it is too dangerous.
The redguard they are kicking out tried to kidnap a girl(investigate the quest) and were disturbing the peace. They were special operations troopers from Hammerfell.
As for nord power yeah its more of a national pride thing than a superiority thing. While some of ulfrics cannnon fodder think nords are superior to all things you forget what they hate the most. The high elves that think they are so superior that humans and other mortals need wiped out. The one that want the civil war dragged out as long as possible to maximize human casualties and increase the odds of destroying them utterly and completely.
Fucks sake visit an Orc stronghold. They hate everyone. Thalmor patrols want to kidnap you and torture you so you will confess to something you did not do; they hate humans as an inferior species THAT FUCKING MUCH!

Loved the way you played into the settings racism.

Actually, I want the racist element to be there as it is part of the setting. I can not tell you how much it pisses me of that 'Political Correctness' is being pushed into FANTASY. We are talking about a setting that is, normally, set in the 'dark ages.' The very idea that a handful of people would be enlightened to look past basic differences is a stretch in and of itself. The mentality that the majority of the human stock would be willing to look past racial and culture differences is down right pathetic. We still don't have that.

If you want a setting to be anything close to realistic you are going to have to portray the people as racist, sexist and all round bigoted.

Remember, these are people who would slaughter thousands of people simply because they where not of the correct bloodline. Anglo-Saxons had no problem slaughtering the Britons, scots, the Picts or even the roman descendants living in the area at the time. They would burn whole villages down over a disagreement in one paragraph of some religious text, while worshiping the same god, because they where that bigoted.

The colour of a persons skin would of been more then justification to hate them outright and heaven forbid we actually get a situation where sentient non-human are involved!

 

[WolfThomas]

The end of "Daggerfall" basically being you playing king-maker with a super weapon and deciding which faction should get it. The Empire being the official answer and the "good" ending so to speak.

Actually the canon ending to Daggerfall is explained, sort of, in "The Warp in the West". Basically several of the different ending occurred simultaneously resulting in the empire ruling the province, each king becoming ruler of a specific part and the Orcs creating a homeland.

I don't believe there's any talk of rape in the game; correct me if I'm wrong.

You are, but it's not as blatant as what has been thrown around before. Thieves Guild spoiler coming up:

Spoiler

Sapphire, one of the thieves from the thieves guild, has a discussion with the player after he/she becomes guild master in which she explains that the reason she is so bitter is because her family was killed by raiders who proceeded to "use" her. She doesn't out and out say she was "raped" but the obvious intent of the words is there, there's really no mistaking what she means.

Spoiler: Also in the Dark Brotherhood

Vasha one of the people to possibly execute describes himself as a "defilor of women"

 

[Vladeon]

I'm not sure if anyone else has said this already, but I'm going to put it out there just in case. According to the creation myth that's accepted by all races in the Elder Scrolls games, All of the Elves (Mer) and the Men have a common ancestry in the Ehlnofey. The only race that is explicitly mentioned as coming from a different world is The Hist, which are giant life-giving trees. It's unclear where the Argonians came from, but it seems probable that they simply evolved from fauna in the Black Marsh area, perhaps given life by The Hist. The Khajiit supposedly predate everything. Basically what I'm saying is that Mer and Men can interbreed in the Elder Scrolls and it's unclear whether Mer/Men and the beastfolk can interbreed. This is all leading to the point that racism is inherent in the lore of the Elder Scrolls. What this speaks to is that each type of elf and man are different races of the same species. As can be seen from the creation myth, the Ehlnofey seem to have an inherant hatred of different versions of themselves. The high elves tend to view themselves as the most pure race of Ehlnofey and everyone else as lesser breeds.

Going outside of lore, Bethesda has always made racism something that's shone through in the Elder Scrolls. For whatever reason, it's important to the developer to show that even in fantasy worlds, negative aspects of society will always be present. For me it adds to the immersion and to the internal narrative of the series a great deal. It adds interpersonal expectations from the player just as you'd have in real life. In real life, when I see a bum on the side of the street, I have an idea of what to expect, just as in Skyrim when I see a beggar, I have an idea of what to expect.

edit: the books I reference can be found here:

A Children's Anuad - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:A_Children%27s_Anuad

Notes on Racial Phylogeny - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Notes_on_Racial_Phylogeny

 

[mattaui]

I quite enjoyed donning the mantle of Nord supremacist and making the Imperials pay for selling out the Empire and Skyrim to the Thalmor and thinking they could bargain away my people's religious rights all in the name of expediency and the greater good. Whose greater good? Would they have killed every Nord to save the rest of the Empire if their elf witch puppet-masters had commanded them thus?

Of course, I didn't think that Skyrim was only for the Nords, but it clearly needed to be run by the Nords who lived there. They wanted to bring back Talos worship, not cast out the Eight in favor of only Talos worship, as the various temples to other deities clearly showed. Sure, there were a few openly racist types that didn't think non-Nords had any right to live in Skyrim, but they were the exception, not the rule. Even Ulfric doesn't think that way, as a ruler.

I suppose one has to differentiate who you escape with during the opening sequence versus who you ultimately support in the civil war, since you're not locked into it at that point. However, I'd feel pretty miffed at summary execution for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, no matter what the excuse. I guess the Empire hopes there are enough meek little sheep who will happily put their head on the chopping block for the greater good. Whenever anyone has to tell you something is for the greater good, it means they're about to screw you over. I think it would have been a nice touch if continuing to follow the Imperial after the attack would just get you executed eventually unless you ran off on your own.

Ideally I would have liked to have been able to support a more pro-Nord Imperial presence, rather than all one way or all the other, and there's no question that the Thalmor are happy to see all the infighting going on. Arguably destroying all the Imperial garrisons makes Skyrim an easier target for Thalmor domination, though it might also make the Nord populace more willing to fight more fiercely against the Dominion should they invade, whereas they might not be as willing to come to the aid of the Empire in battle.

I think it's great that Bethesda gave you two complex options, since saying the Nord 'are the bad guys' is woefully simplistic. The only reason the Empire was so 'good' in the previous two games is that you were up against ultimate evil. In this case, they bifurcated the plot so that you could choose either side (or neither) and still be the one to save the world from destruction.

 

[Romidude]

The racism really is just more flavour to the universe of The Elder Scrolls. It can create an atmosphere of hate without offending any real life groups, while still carrying gravity and meaning in game. Getting called "Cat" all the time makes me feel a annoyed, you know Bethesda's done an amazing job when it comes to that.

 

[Programmed_For_Damage]

Fucks sake visit an Orc stronghold. They hate everyone.

As an Orc warrior they're going to love me. The general populace seem pretty cool; but the bloody Nords hate my guts, despite the assistance I render them.

 

[Brawndo]

The Argonian National Congress frowns upon your shenanigans

 

[carpathic]

When I entered Whiterun I saw a group of Redguards being herassed by Whiterun guards. The guards where going on about how the Redguards only wanted to come in to rape children and abduct woman to sell into slavery. When I went up to one of the Redguards, he said that they where just looking for a friend and if I could help.

lol, I've yet to finish that particular quest so I don't know what their true intentions are, but you do see pairs of redguards every now and then harassing women for whatever their reasons are. Whatever it is, it's definitely not something as honest and friendly as "looking for a friend".

Anyways, as a Dark Elf. I just make a point of murdering every single person who bad mouths me for it. Maybe the rest will learn.

Odd, because as an imperial I make a point of killing every elf - especially dark elves for the manner in which I was treated in Morrowind. Plus I hate elves

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

I So I want to know if I am the only one who has experienced this racism

...you've never played the Elder Scrolls before, have you?

the series is basically the poster child for Fantasy Racism. Check out morrowind and see the khajiit and argonians being sold as slaves because... well, c'mon, they can't even wear BOOTS, clearly they are inferior.

Lets see, racial stereotypes include

khajiit: sneaky, drug-addled, thieving liars
argonians: lizard ents, obviously they are stupid
dunmer: aristocratic, backward, ancestor-worshipping lying slavers and drug dealers
altmer: arrogant, supremacist bastards (and now some of them are full-on nazis)
orsimer: raging, drooling, ignorant barbarians
Nords: DRUNKEN ignorant barbarians
Redguards: savages
bosmer: untrustworthy, flighty, thieving cowards
Imperials: arrogant, lazy, weak, greedy.

escapists, what am I forgetting?

 

[Screamarie]

What I find funny is that I played an Empirial woman and then got married to a Nord man. I thought for certain someone would say something about a Nord and an Imperial being married but nope, no one cared. I guess our "love" just impressed the hell out of everyone and so the two sides united in harmony behind my back.

 

[Gunjester]

This all makes perfect sense. Anyone who finds this offensive has no idea what Medieval times and other similar times were like.
This by no means shows racism in the developers, it shows realism in the setting. My character is an Imperial by race, but a Stormcloak in allegiance, and you can damn bet a lot of characters comment on my race.
My brother made a blackguard, same thing.
This is accuracy and immersion, if you feel angry at an NPC for their racism, that means the developers wanted you to be.

 

[Angerwing]

Racism has been a component in Morrowind and Oblivion as well, although not as large as in Skyrim. In Morrowind, you had nationalistic Dunmer, who didn't like outsiders. You had Khajiit and Argonian slaves, and people would have a different disposition towards you depending on your race. If you were an Orc, or a Khajiit or something, you would be universally liked less than an Imperial or a High Elf.

In Oblivion, it's not that bad, considering that Cyrodiil is the heart of the Empire, and there are many different races living there. There are still some cities with big divides between the humans and the Khajiit/Argonians.

In Skyrim, some races are treated with suspicion, and it's far easier to interact with them as one of the human races (not sure about Redguard, haven't played them). Considering there's a nationalistic revolution going on, it makes sense that there is a constant amount of light racism. Hell, even the noble Dunmer have been reduced to their 'ghetto' in Windhelm.

My Khajiit stealth archer gets told "You'll make a fine rug, cat!" when in combat.

 

[Angerwing]

I So I want to know if I am the only one who has experienced this racism

...you've never played the Elder Scrolls before, have you?

the series is basically the poster child for Fantasy Racism. Check out morrowind and see the khajiit and argonians being sold as slaves because... well, c'mon, they can't even wear BOOTS, clearly they are inferior.

Lets see, racial stereotypes include

khajiit: sneaky, drug-addled, thieving liars
argonians: lizard ents, obviously they are stupid
dunmer: aristocratic, backward, ancestor-worshipping lying slavers and drug dealers
altmer: arrogant, supremacist bastards (and now some of them are full-on nazis)
orsimer: raging, drooling, ignorant barbarians
Nords: DRUNKEN ignorant barbarians
Redguards: savages
bosmer: untrustworthy, flighty, thieving cowards
Imperials: arrogant, lazy, weak, greedy.

escapists, what am I forgetting?

The only race you missed were Bretons. I'd say they're considered somewhat similar to Imperials, just even weaker as they're all thought of as mages.