rampant "female characters" threads and the fractured philosophy of feminism

[Chemical Alia]

Hmm. I find this to be a fascinating thread. As a woman, I'm not very "feminine", certainly. I do wish that, growing up, I'd found more females to idolize; all of the people that I learned from as I grew were men. In the stories I've read I've seen strong female characters, by they never influenced me or related to me like the male characters did. Same goes for video games. And yet I never question being female, nor having feminine traits, albeit not terribly obvious ones.

That's precisely how I've always felt, well put. I've always longed to see the kind of female character that I can actually relate to as well as some of the really cool male characters I liked as a kid. Probably the best female character who seemed actually awesome to me is Pearl Forrester from MST3k, now that I think about it.

 

[BoogieManFL]

So many threads on this topic, and they all devolve into the same arguments with the same disconnects. We're getting nowhere, and here's why: at this point, feminism is a severely fractured philosophy that can't make up its fucking mind.

But I'll tell you what really grinds my gears: feminist crusaders who don't recognize the complete no-win situation they've put us all in with regard to this bullshit. Seems there's literally no way to please all of these people

The root of the problem is that you have a great many people gathering under the same banner. This really applies to a lot of things. There are a lot of feminist crusaders. Not all of them are going to have the exact same vision that makes them happy. Everyone is just a little different than the next. Trying to simultaneously please 10, 20, 100, or 1000 people with the exact same thing is virtually impossible.

So you can't hope to win, just hope to do OK. Or just don't care and do what you want, which IMO is the best way to do it. I'm a big supporter of the philosophy that if you don't like something, don't look at it. Fuck off. Let the people who do like it enjoy it. There is enough in this world for you to find something you like, if you can't then maybe you're the problem. Too bad not many people understand this.

I don't really care for anime/manga etc whatever it's called. But I'm not going to bother people who do like I'm some douche who likes to make trouble with my free time trying to forcefully impose my beliefs onto others like so many activists.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

BobDobolina, you should probably pay more fucking attention before you launch into preloaded tirades. I said "crusaders" for a reason. I was specifically talking about the zealots who will absolutely shift their beliefs left or right if it means nailing some relatively ignorant or even harmless person/thread/comment to the wall. "Crusaders" are out for fucking blood. They're also merely a subset of feminism that does not include every sensible person trying to have a thoughtful discussion about the breadth and depth of the issue with respect to any and all media.

So with that niggling detail firmly front and center, your whole post comes off as pointless and (perhaps even worse) revelatory.

If you were taking greater issue with the "can't make up its fucking mind", you should probably recognize that as a crude way of saying exactly what you said. There's no consensus within the concept. You can view that fact however you so please. I ascribed human behavior to an idea. That probably should have tipped you off that it was kind of a joke.

Now if you want to rev up a debate about how feminism, as a fluctuating, all-encompassing, nonspecific web of philosophies, is any different than the fucking human condition that plagues everyone, I just might bite. The narcissism of such an attitude is enough to inspire boatloads of fresh disdain. Or maybe even revulsion.

 

[dagens24]

Bravo to the OP for putting to words what I've been thinking for so long.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

How is it not all-encompassing? I'm guessing that everything impacts women, directly or indirectly, and is therefore worthy of inclusion in feminist discussion, yes? That's exactly the problem with so many of these discussions: feminism is whatever people want it to be, and it changes depending on who needs to be put in his or her place at any given moment.

What's bothering me is the unfocused nature of the subject. It's so broad as to be functionally useless - at least when you find yourself engaged with intellectually shifty people who are more interested in winning an argument or putting someone down than sticking to their actual core beliefs. Trolls, you call them. I just call them assholes.

It's narcissism for some women to expand feminism to the point where it's basically just "everything I feel like talking about" and expecting anyone (men and women alike) to take the shit seriously. And the tendency towards shitty feminism (as opposed to quality feminism) seems to coincide with a propensity for loudmouthery and persistance.

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

I would say it isn't impossible or even hard to make good female characters in gaming. (Ok, maybe "good" isn't the right word, but rather "safe.") It's just that you never hear them praised or demonized. Why? Because most of the time you don't even notice them, and a feminist who probably doesn't know anything about SoulCalibur outside of the boxart definitely isn't going to.

Let me give you an example: Mei Ling from metal gear solid 4. She was in the game (relevantly anyways) for like, 10 minutes, as the captain on a large vessel that was headed on a dangerous mission. Even though she was able to keep her composure and inspire her crew ultimately, you could tell that she herself was nervous as fuck the whole time. It was extremely believable, and it would've fallen completely flat if the character were male.

The thing about it is, she's not a particularly interesting character, and she doesn't draw attention to herself. What draws attention? Blatant fan-service characters and tough action girls. Naturally, if you're marketing or even writing something, you want your characters to at very least draw attention and be relevant to people's interests, and frankly, realistic female characters, or realistic characters in general don't always do that. Look at Kratos, Solid Snake, Marcus Fenix, Master Chief. Do they accurately represent what the male population is really like? No, but that's what makes them interesting. Characters don't necessarily always have to be fucking role models.

eh i could rant on this forever. Basically I don't even think the medium is broken. There are always going to be your bayonettas and alyx vances, and both have their appeal, which is why nobody notices the Elikas or Elenas or Faythes or Mei Lings or... well you get the idea.

 

[Manji187]

Meryl Silverburgh, anyone?

MGS1 Meryl? Yeah, she's great. Haven't played MGS4 so I don't know whether/ how she has changed. By the way, what do you think about Eva and The Boss (MGS3)?

She's not at all changed I wouldn't say. If anything she's more badass than before. Truthfully thinking about it the MGS franchise has produced some brilliant female characters. Eva and The Boss examples of a character who is a sexy and dangerous but you've got more chance of being shanked than catching them being vulnerable somewhere. We should just throw feminists at MGS, and if they complain about any gratuitous ass shots, we can throw them at MGS4. So much Snake ass >_<

I agree with the dangerous part but...you would call The Boss sexy?

I remember her mostly for her disarming/ takedown prowess...if she makes an appearance on the screen you just know there's a big chance you're gonna be lying on the ground, writhing in pain, with your gun strewn around in pieces. But sexy...hmm...maybe it's been too long since I last played MGS3.

 

[Crashage]

Meryl Silverburgh, anyone?

MGS1 Meryl? Yeah, she's great. Haven't played MGS4 so I don't know whether/ how she has changed. By the way, what do you think about Eva and The Boss (MGS3)?

She's not at all changed I wouldn't say. If anything she's more badass than before. Truthfully thinking about it the MGS franchise has produced some brilliant female characters. Eva and The Boss examples of a character who is a sexy and dangerous but you've got more chance of being shanked than catching them being vulnerable somewhere. We should just throw feminists at MGS, and if they complain about any gratuitous ass shots, we can throw them at MGS4. So much Snake ass >_<

I agree with the dangerous part but...you would call The Boss sexy?

I remember her mostly for her disarming/ takedown prowess...if she makes an appearance on the screen you just know there's a big chance you're gonna be lying on the ground, writhing in pain, with your gun strewn around in pieces. But sexy...hmm...maybe it's been too long since I last played MGS3.

Well, you're right, it was wrong of me to throw her in the sexy pile of characters. I think I got over excited by all the rumours that she and Eva hooked up.

 

[galdon2004]

I'd be happy to see more of a variety of female character types portrayed in games. It feels like the problem is when you just have a token female here and there to represent one stereotype or the other. I don't think there's anything wrong with stereotypes, but to have more variety of characters along with your Alyxes and Bayonettas can only serve to make things more interesting.

I believe the true image of a perfect female embraces what makes her female; her natural beauty, charisma, and grace. Then embraces what makes her unique, her own desires.

Not every female is interested in embracing or even possesses these characteristics. It's probably the romanticizing of females by the opposite gender that I find most perplexing.

And you manage to fail your spot check for seeing the point.

First of all; beauty is subjective. I named a couple traits that are typically found more in females than males. Either gender's body has traits that are designed to attract the opposite gender. This is NOT something to be ashamed of. It is not something to fight against.

I have a friend who wraps her breasts because she can't stand the idea of males being attracted to them. Putting herself into discomfort all day because she's insecure with the fact that she's physically attractive. That's not healthy.

You have to accept your body, respect it, and work with it. Rejecting a part of yourself because it fits some stereotype you are trying to avoid just gives credence to that stereotype.

Now; about the part where I say her own desires.

A girl can get dirty. She can be a mechanic, farmer, scientist, or do physical labor. She can ALSO be a nurse, cook, tailor, or secretary. Whatever makes her happy is good. However, when a girl becomes a mechanic to 'show the boys how it's done' she's inciting gender warfare on her own.

You have to do what you do because it makes you happy not because you want to prove something. Every single female I've ever seen in a typically male job ALWAYS claims they are doing it to prove women can handle it, or at the least mentions their need to demonstrate their competence, and/or are afraid of messing up because they are female.

This is again unhealthy. It puts extra pressure on yourself, and makes a generally more hostile work environment due to the competitive and sometimes aggressive 'vs the world' attitude displayed.

I think this post went on long enough though I might start veering off topic or worse; start repeating myself without realizing it. Basically in conclusion, screw stereotypes and society we will never overcome them until everybody; feminists included, stops thinking about them.

 

[Veylon]

Part of the problem is that feminism is about men. Specifically, how can women be equal to men? It makes every choice a question of what effect it has on this relationship. Are concealing clothes better because they deny the male gaze and thus reduce the objectification of women? Are revealing clothes better because they celebrate the independence and uniqueness of women? The arguments become quite knotty and convoluted.

Really, what feminists needs to assert is simply that women are equal to men and can do what they want without the need to reference what men think.

As for feminist game characters, there's the tendency to take a sexy character, have her dress in a skimpy outfit, and then act like Rambo. It makes everyone not-to-upset. It also makes the character a completely two-dimensional cipher and thus fit in with the males. I had hopes that Samus would turn out to be a relaxed Han Solo-type character but, alas, that was not to be.

 

[Chemical Alia]

I have a friend who wraps her breasts because she can't stand the idea of males being attracted to them. Putting herself into discomfort all day because she's insecure with the fact that she's physically attractive. That's not healthy.

You have to accept your body, respect it, and work with it. Rejecting a part of yourself because it fits some stereotype you are trying to avoid just gives credence to that stereotype.

Now; about the part where I say her own desires.

A girl can get dirty. She can be a mechanic, farmer, scientist, or do physical labor. She can ALSO be a nurse, cook, tailor, or secretary. Whatever makes her happy is good. However, when a girl becomes a mechanic to 'show the boys how it's done' she's inciting gender warfare on her own.

You have to do what you do because it makes you happy not because you want to prove something. Every single female I've ever seen in a typically male job ALWAYS claims they are doing it to prove women can handle it, or at the least mentions their need to demonstrate their competence, and/or are afraid of messing up because they are female.

This is again unhealthy. It puts extra pressure on yourself, and makes a generally more hostile work environment due to the competitive and sometimes aggressive 'vs the world' attitude displayed.

I think this post went on long enough though I might start veering off topic or worse; start repeating myself without realizing it. Basically in conclusion, screw stereotypes and society we will never overcome them until everybody; feminists included, stops thinking about them.

I agree with what you're saying in general, but I also think you're making this out to be a bigger problem than it is. Using the example of one specific girl you know and her personal problems or the motivations of "every girl you ever met in a predominantly male job" doesn't prove anything to me because I can just as easily relate to you a personal experience or an individual case that is the exact opposite.

For example, I don't feel particularly inclined to maximize my physical attractiveness to other people and would prefer to avoid being defined, as a female, by how I look. Yet I'm completely comfortable with my appearance and don't think there is anything unhealthy about my lifestyle or relationships with other people. I've worked/studied in nothing but typically male environments my whole life, and have never come across a female peer who was in her job for any reason other than it was what she sincerely enjoyed doing. This is why I don't think individual cases make for very strong arguments, and all these "ALWAYS" and "EVERY WOMAN" claims sound extremely silly.

Really, what feminists needs to assert is simply that women are equal to men and can do what they want without the need to reference what men think.

As for feminist game characters, there's the tendency to take a sexy character, have her dress in a skimpy outfit, and then act like Rambo. It makes everyone not-to-upset. It also makes the character a completely two-dimensional cipher and thus fit in with the males. I had hopes that Samus would turn out to be a relaxed Han Solo-type character but, alas, that was not to be.

I agree with this completely. In terms of character design, there's a big disconnect when you see such an unfitting female character in a badass role. When the character design reminds you of a girl in a Halloween costume, she's left feeling very one dimensional and there's not much to care about or relate to. It's like the issue of how to design a female character is really over-thought, or not thought about much at all. Not sure why it's so complicated.

 

[galdon2004]

I have a friend who wraps her breasts because she can't stand the idea of males being attracted to them. Putting herself into discomfort all day because she's insecure with the fact that she's physically attractive. That's not healthy.

You have to accept your body, respect it, and work with it. Rejecting a part of yourself because it fits some stereotype you are trying to avoid just gives credence to that stereotype.

Now; about the part where I say her own desires.

A girl can get dirty. She can be a mechanic, farmer, scientist, or do physical labor. She can ALSO be a nurse, cook, tailor, or secretary. Whatever makes her happy is good. However, when a girl becomes a mechanic to 'show the boys how it's done' she's inciting gender warfare on her own.

You have to do what you do because it makes you happy not because you want to prove something. Every single female I've ever seen in a typically male job ALWAYS claims they are doing it to prove women can handle it, or at the least mentions their need to demonstrate their competence, and/or are afraid of messing up because they are female.

This is again unhealthy. It puts extra pressure on yourself, and makes a generally more hostile work environment due to the competitive and sometimes aggressive 'vs the world' attitude displayed.

I think this post went on long enough though I might start veering off topic or worse; start repeating myself without realizing it. Basically in conclusion, screw stereotypes and society we will never overcome them until everybody; feminists included, stops thinking about them.

I agree with what you're saying in general, but I also think you're making this out to be a bigger problem than it is. Using the example of one specific girl you know and her personal problems or the motivations of "every girl you ever met in a predominantly male job" doesn't prove anything to me because I can just as easily relate to you a personal experience or an individual case that is the exact opposite.

For example, I don't feel particularly inclined to maximize my physical attractiveness to other people and would prefer to avoid being defined, as a female, by how I look. Yet I'm completely comfortable with my appearance and don't think there is anything unhealthy about my lifestyle or relationships with other people. I've worked/studied in nothing but typically male environments my whole life, and have never come across a female peer who was in her job for any reason other than it was what she sincerely enjoyed doing. This is why I don't think individual cases make for very strong arguments, and all these "ALWAYS" and "EVERY WOMAN" claims sound extremely silly.

Really, what feminists needs to assert is simply that women are equal to men and can do what they want without the need to reference what men think.

As for feminist game characters, there's the tendency to take a sexy character, have her dress in a skimpy outfit, and then act like Rambo. It makes everyone not-to-upset. It also makes the character a completely two-dimensional cipher and thus fit in with the males. I had hopes that Samus would turn out to be a relaxed Han Solo-type character but, alas, that was not to be.

I agree with this completely. In terms of character design, there's a big disconnect when you see such an unfitting female character in a badass role. When the character design reminds you of a girl in a Halloween costume, she's left feeling very one dimensional and there's not much to care about or relate to. It's like the issue of how to design a female character is really over-thought, or not thought about much at all. Not sure why it's so complicated.

I never said maximizing; I mean just accepting. You don't have to have cleavage, but you don't need a turtle neck either. When speaking about feminists, we are already talking about the extremes; or at least, in my mind, to be a feminist you take it to the extremes. A female who believes they are equal to a man -should- be typical by now.

Anyways, individual cases/experiences are basically the only source for arguments; I'm not going to argue based on something I have no experience in; that'd be kind of arrogant at best.

@Veylon: To quote Tiffany- "You are all aware all my vital organs are in this general area" *points at uncovered stomach*

 

[veloper]

Seems there's literally no way to please all of these people. Even waving the white flag and going with a male protagonist has folks up-in-arms about favoritism. Give them Alyx and they roast you for denying femininity. Give them Bayonetta and they roast you for sexualizing women. Can't. Fucking. Win.

You can win by just ignoring their complaints.

Game studios are still and unwaveringly doing a boy's service and will continue to do so. This isn't our fight.

We got poor gameplay to whine about.