Random loot and the revolution that never came

[nomotog_v1legacy]

Subtitle so it's just borderlands is it?

So we have a class of game that I don't think we have a good name for, but diablo clone will work here. They are action RPG where primary draw is in finding and collecting randomized loot. There are a lot of games in this genera, but I have to ask why BL didn't make a bigger splash?

So borderlands wasn't perfect, but the game accidentally bumped into one of the best twists I have seen in loot. The way I like to describe it is that in diablo you look for weapons to match your build. In borderlands you look for builds to match your weapons. The weapon's in BL don't just have different numbers on them, they each have their own feel. It makes each one a new experience. (Granted still random so they aren't always good experiences. Random is random.)

I haven't see this repeated though and I wonder why. Every other game in this genre uses the style of changing numbers but altering the weapon feel. Why don't more games copy borderlands? My first thought is that it's because BLs is a FPS and most other games are melee focused? Maybe the system that works in BL just doesn't translate well into melee combat? Anyone else have their own thoughts about it? Am I just giving BL way too much credit?

 

[Bad Jim]

I think you're in the wrong forum. This belongs in gaming discussion.

Anyway, I think it's just one of those magic formulas that can't be recreated without copying the original so closely you risk a lawsuit. Just as there are lots of games like Diablo 2 that simply aren't as good, and it's hard to say why because many are well polished and fun games.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

I think you're in the wrong forum. This belongs in gaming discussion.

Anyway, I think it's just one of those magic formulas that can't be recreated without copying the original so closely you risk a lawsuit. Just as there are lots of games like Diablo 2 that simply aren't as good, and it's hard to say why because many are well polished and fun games.

Oh your right I thought I posted this into gaming discussion. I wonder if we can get it moved.

 

[JUMBO PALACE]

Well in the case of Borderlands I've seen the term "Looter Shooter" used quite a few times. It rhymes so it must be legit.

I guess you could describe the Souls series in the same way of "build follows weapons". You can decide in the beginning if you're going to focus on a particular stat, but I think most players on their first time through the game find a weapon/class of weapon they like and then decide to focus on strength/dex and how much mobility they want.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

There's not really much difference in Borderland play-throughs. You got the classes, and that's about it. The random loot is doesn't really change much. You get a pistol that shoots grenades, a shotgun that shoots kittens and dog that barks everything to death. Next play through you have a kitten that shoots pistols, a dog that blows up into shotguns and a bark that shoots grenades.

And fuck all feels different. Part of the reason I stopped caring about Borderlands games is because 1 and 2 felt identical and the 'pre-sequel' was just an insult.

 

[Zhukov]

Because it's a shit system?

Loot created by a RNG means you basically never get anything interesting. It all just averages out into a pile of level-appropriate blandness. Maybe the RNG will cough out something notable, but it's 99% oh-look-another-fucking-SMG. Even when you do find something notable you'll replace it in ten minutes when you find something with 10% more DPS.

I'd rather get loot that was designed by a game designer to be cool and distinctive. If that means less loot then so be it. Less time wasted having to perform busywork inventory maintenance.

 

[DoPo]

The way I like to describe it is that in diablo you look for weapons to match your build. In borderlands you look for builds to match your weapons.

Well, there is Path of Exile where unique items really lead to entire builds.

Dragonpath has your item setup as your class.

Heck, even Diablo has item-based builds - burizon, for example.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I think BL was actually quite a big hit. It doesn't need to be copied by everyone to be memorable and I know people who never touch shooters who enjoyed BL thanks to the rpg and loot elements.

Maybe having an acronym that also refers to gay manga has something to do with it not catching on...prolly not.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

Well in the case of Borderlands I've seen the term "Looter Shooter" used quite a few times. It rhymes so it must be legit.

I guess you could describe the Souls series in the same way of "build follows weapons". You can decide in the beginning if you're going to focus on a particular stat, but I think most players on their first time through the game find a weapon/class of weapon they like and then decide to focus on strength/dex and how much mobility they want.

Dark souls kind of shows why this system might not work well with melee. Imagine a dark souls with random weapons. The attacks, combos and techs would all be randomly made. Just getting the animations right would be a mountain of a task, but the bigger issue would be in gameplay. You tend stick with a weapon in dark souls. You need all that time just to learn the timing. You might keep one weapon for 90% of your game, so if that one weapon you picked happen to be badly made (as happens with random loot) you could render the game impossible. In BL you go through guns rather quick so if you get one bad you toss it and grabs a new one. Repeat until you find the random cool one. (That maybe sounds bad, but it works.)

 

[JUMBO PALACE]

Well in the case of Borderlands I've seen the term "Looter Shooter" used quite a few times. It rhymes so it must be legit.

I guess you could describe the Souls series in the same way of "build follows weapons". You can decide in the beginning if you're going to focus on a particular stat, but I think most players on their first time through the game find a weapon/class of weapon they like and then decide to focus on strength/dex and how much mobility they want.

Dark souls kind of shows why this system might not work well with melee. Imagine a dark souls with random weapons. The attacks, combos and techs would all be randomly made. Just getting the animations right would be a mountain of a task, but the bigger issue would be in gameplay. You tend stick with a weapon in dark souls. You need all that time just to learn the timing. You might keep one weapon for 90% of your game, so if that one weapon you picked happen to be badly made (as happens with random loot) you could render the game impossible. In BL you go through guns rather quick so if you get one bad you toss it and grabs a new one. Repeat until you find the random cool one. (That maybe sounds bad, but it works.)

Oh okay, I see the key factor here is the randomness of the drops. Yeah, definitely would not work with a third person melee game. I don't know, I've never been a fan of Borderlands or its system that throws a bunch of crap at you with the occasional interesting gun here and there.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Because it's a shit system?

Loot created by a RNG means you basically never get anything interesting. It all just averages out into a pile of level-appropriate blandness. Maybe the RNG will cough out something notable, but it's 99% oh-look-another-fucking-SMG. Even when you do find something notable you'll replace it in ten minutes when you find something with 10% more DPS.

I'd rather get loot that was designed by a game designer to be cool and distinctive. If that means less loot then so be it. Less time wasted having to perform busywork inventory maintenance.

I couldn't agree more, inventory management needs to go (or be greatly toned down) in just about every game with it. It is literally just useless busywork and nothing else. If you tie damage to character levels instead of weapons, then you avoid getting ever-so-slightly better weapons at such constant rates. I liked and played Borderlands for leveling to get new skills, not getting loot, as the gameplay would really change based on the build you were going for. There's no reason to even be excited for great loot unless it's end-game loot because getting great loot at say level 20 means you can use that gun for an extra level before it becomes shit (so exciting!!!). I don't even understand how this type of constant inventory management is enjoyed by any gamer really; the loot in Borderlands just causes the game to come to a screeching halt after just about every quest where everyone sells their garbage and equips their new slightly better equipment (it totally breaks the co-op flow of the game) and the people that do play for and enjoy the looting only care about end-game loot.

 

[klaynexas3]

Well in the case of Borderlands I've seen the term "Looter Shooter" used quite a few times. It rhymes so it must be legit.

I guess you could describe the Souls series in the same way of "build follows weapons". You can decide in the beginning if you're going to focus on a particular stat, but I think most players on their first time through the game find a weapon/class of weapon they like and then decide to focus on strength/dex and how much mobility they want.

Dark souls kind of shows why this system might not work well with melee. Imagine a dark souls with random weapons. The attacks, combos and techs would all be randomly made. Just getting the animations right would be a mountain of a task, but the bigger issue would be in gameplay. You tend stick with a weapon in dark souls. You need all that time just to learn the timing. You might keep one weapon for 90% of your game, so if that one weapon you picked happen to be badly made (as happens with random loot) you could render the game impossible. In BL you go through guns rather quick so if you get one bad you toss it and grabs a new one. Repeat until you find the random cool one. (That maybe sounds bad, but it works.)

I'd argue Nioh is the game with the mix you're looking at. It's not like Borderlands completely random with different animations and shotguns that instakill but shoot behind you, but the stats are still, for the most part, random. So far I haven't found anything too radical in terms of weird loot, so how well Nioh pulls it off I wouldn't be able to say as I'm very early in the game, but I think it shows that a third-person melee RPG still works with some form of randomized loot. The main stats that differentiate in the loot seem almost independent of your character's progressive stats. It's not a perfect system, but it makes things interesting when you find a random powerful weapon in a dude's toolkit in some cave. I think it's appropriate for the game, and it makes running through similar areas feel worth doing just because you might pick something else up that's neat.

 

[Vendor-Lazarus]

I've never played Borderlands but I've heard about it and it sounds similar to Hellgate: London in it's randomness aspect.
Good clean, re-playable fun. It should have been allowed to develop a bit more. Complete randomness tends to average out into blandness as previously mentioned but it could still work within a framework that holds it up and creates a symbiosis that can transcend its make-up and become more than the sum of its parts.
Most good 4X games work best with some randomness thrown into its exploration and research.

I will now deviate a bit from the main topic and address the category kerfuffle..
There seem to be a lot of confusion about it's genre, with such things as First person, Third person and Isometric becoming secondary to its content and "performance".
I would place Hellgate and Borderlands as Looter Shooters. An main FPS with one or two RPG mechanics.
Diablo clones are Isometric/Top-down or Free/swivel cam Hack'n'Slash games. RPG's with emphasis on loot, stats and action.
Then there are Third person fighter games which gets confused with Hack'n'Slash, these should be called Spectacle Fighters.
Just as there are Spectacle Shooters...

I know that games today have mostly become a mish-mash of all manner of genres and it's more of a pet peeve of mine but I still think that defining an overarching genre is helpful.
I'm not at all sure how to resolve it but it should take into account both its content, execution and viewer perspective.

Anyway..That's my three sent's. ,)

 

[Kyrian007]

I always referred to the diablo clone as a "clicklooter." Borderlands was the same, instead of clicking on the skeleton until it died, you clicked on raider faces until they died. And then broke all gameplay flow overturning the room and fishing around in the toilets for loot by clicking.

I never liked borderlands, thought borderlands 2 was even worse... but I've played them all. Mostly because my friends all like it, and unlike almost all other multiplayer games it kept local multiplayer. Borderlands isn't any fun, playing borderlands with my friends is.

 

[Raddra]

Because it's a shit system?

Loot created by a RNG means you basically never get anything interesting. It all just averages out into a pile of level-appropriate blandness. Maybe the RNG will cough out something notable, but it's 99% oh-look-another-fucking-SMG. Even when you do find something notable you'll replace it in ten minutes when you find something with 10% more DPS.

I'd rather get loot that was designed by a game designer to be cool and distinctive. If that means less loot then so be it. Less time wasted having to perform busywork inventory maintenance.

Amen.

Random loot games basically kil any fun in finding loot.

In Diablo 2 I found it was ok since you were looking for the carefully crafted unique/set/legendary items. And the game was pretty fun experimenting with builds.

 

[LostCrusader]

Well in the case of Borderlands I've seen the term "Looter Shooter" used quite a few times. It rhymes so it must be legit.

I guess you could describe the Souls series in the same way of "build follows weapons". You can decide in the beginning if you're going to focus on a particular stat, but I think most players on their first time through the game find a weapon/class of weapon they like and then decide to focus on strength/dex and how much mobility they want.

Dark souls kind of shows why this system might not work well with melee. Imagine a dark souls with random weapons. The attacks, combos and techs would all be randomly made. Just getting the animations right would be a mountain of a task, but the bigger issue would be in gameplay. You tend stick with a weapon in dark souls. You need all that time just to learn the timing. You might keep one weapon for 90% of your game, so if that one weapon you picked happen to be badly made (as happens with random loot) you could render the game impossible. In BL you go through guns rather quick so if you get one bad you toss it and grabs a new one. Repeat until you find the random cool one. (That maybe sounds bad, but it works.)

That was what turned me off on borderlands. You out level your bad guns quickly but you out level your good guns too, so too bad if you found something you liked or that fit your playstyle.

 

[Kyrian007]

Well in the case of Borderlands I've seen the term "Looter Shooter" used quite a few times. It rhymes so it must be legit.

I guess you could describe the Souls series in the same way of "build follows weapons". You can decide in the beginning if you're going to focus on a particular stat, but I think most players on their first time through the game find a weapon/class of weapon they like and then decide to focus on strength/dex and how much mobility they want.

Dark souls kind of shows why this system might not work well with melee. Imagine a dark souls with random weapons. The attacks, combos and techs would all be randomly made. Just getting the animations right would be a mountain of a task, but the bigger issue would be in gameplay. You tend stick with a weapon in dark souls. You need all that time just to learn the timing. You might keep one weapon for 90% of your game, so if that one weapon you picked happen to be badly made (as happens with random loot) you could render the game impossible. In BL you go through guns rather quick so if you get one bad you toss it and grabs a new one. Repeat until you find the random cool one. (That maybe sounds bad, but it works.)

That was what turned me off on borderlands. You out level your bad guns quickly but you out level your good guns too, so too bad if you found something you liked or that fit your playstyle.

My experience was playing Axton on BL2, and my friends and I had gone through normal mode with me (axton) and one roommate as maya and another friend as a zero. Normal mode was easy enough, but as an axton I overleveled my weapons for my build and was seriously holding back the party with repeated deaths. We started over fresh, the friends switching roles and me taking Salvador. Salvy's a broken juggernaut, and I was speced out as a sniper with him and our zero was close range melee. That party's maya overleveled her build. Developing a character build is pointless when it relies on weapons you very quickly outclass. In bl 1 an orange weapon could still be good 10 to 15 levels after you pick it up. In bl2 even an orange weapon needs to be replaced after 5 levels because its so outclassed at that point it might as well be a super soaker.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

No one makes a build around the weapon in BL2, the build always comes first. Some weapons and builds synergise particularly well, and in the case of DPUH or BeeHawk, it is what it is. But BL loot system is no different or better than other action RPGs. Loot is random, differene enemies/bosses drop particular items (for farming purposes), items have levels and that's it. The one thing BL has that others lack is that since it's a shooter, the variety of weapons/playstyles is much higher. Having said that, at high levels, that becomes moot because of the terrible enemy health scaling.

BL is no different from other loot treadmill/skinnerbox action RPGs.

 

[sageoftruth]

I think BL was actually quite a big hit. It doesn't need to be copied by everyone to be memorable and I know people who never touch shooters who enjoyed BL thanks to the rpg and loot elements.

Maybe having an acronym that also refers to gay manga has something to do with it not catching on...prolly not.

"BL"? Dare I ask what the other thing is those letters stand for?

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

No one makes a build around the weapon in BL2, the build always comes first. Some weapons and builds synergise particularly well, and in the case of DPUH or BeeHawk, it is what it is. But BL loot system is no different or better than other action RPGs. Loot is random, differene enemies/bosses drop particular items (for farming purposes), items have levels and that's it. The one thing BL has that others lack is that since it's a shooter, the variety of weapons/playstyles is much higher. Having said that, at high levels, that becomes moot because of the terrible enemy health scaling.

BL is no different from other loot treadmill/skinnerbox action RPGs.

It's possible I am wrong here, but I think the way BL dose weapons feels fundamentally different then how a game like diablo dose it's weapons. In diablo you pick up a sword and it's a sword. Every sword you pick up has the same move set and your not going to change the way you play because you picked up one sword vs another sword. The damage and frills might change, but the fundamentals don't. (It's also not helped by diablo being skill heavy, you might never use your sword outside of being a stat stick.) In borderlands, you can find two ARs one with a high recoil the other with a low recoil and your going to use the two differently. (This goes for most of the other stats. If you find a really good gun with only one bullet in the clip, then your going to be playing very differently for the next few levels.)

You are right about the scaling in BL2. That got out of hand. BL1 was better, but that also had it's own issues such as double anarchy.