Random loot and the revolution that never came

[sageoftruth]

Well in the case of Borderlands I've seen the term "Looter Shooter" used quite a few times. It rhymes so it must be legit.

I guess you could describe the Souls series in the same way of "build follows weapons". You can decide in the beginning if you're going to focus on a particular stat, but I think most players on their first time through the game find a weapon/class of weapon they like and then decide to focus on strength/dex and how much mobility they want.

Dark souls kind of shows why this system might not work well with melee. Imagine a dark souls with random weapons. The attacks, combos and techs would all be randomly made. Just getting the animations right would be a mountain of a task, but the bigger issue would be in gameplay. You tend stick with a weapon in dark souls. You need all that time just to learn the timing. You might keep one weapon for 90% of your game, so if that one weapon you picked happen to be badly made (as happens with random loot) you could render the game impossible. In BL you go through guns rather quick so if you get one bad you toss it and grabs a new one. Repeat until you find the random cool one. (That maybe sounds bad, but it works.)

I'd argue Nioh is the game with the mix you're looking at. It's not like Borderlands completely random with different animations and shotguns that instakill but shoot behind you, but the stats are still, for the most part, random. So far I haven't found anything too radical in terms of weird loot, so how well Nioh pulls it off I wouldn't be able to say as I'm very early in the game, but I think it shows that a third-person melee RPG still works with some form of randomized loot. The main stats that differentiate in the loot seem almost independent of your character's progressive stats. It's not a perfect system, but it makes things interesting when you find a random powerful weapon in a dude's toolkit in some cave. I think it's appropriate for the game, and it makes running through similar areas feel worth doing just because you might pick something else up that's neat.

I was a bit put off by the Nioh loot system. Granted, the combat more than made up for it, but I often found myself barely bothering to even see what I just picked up. I'd just grab stuff and keep going because it was all stuff I'd picked up before, minus a few changes in stats.
I just got a PS4 Pro and with it being my first next-gen console, I have been excitedly pin-balling between this game and Bloodborne. I found that Bloodborne (and every other souls game for that matter) did a much better job at keeping me interested whenever I discovered a chest or a dead body with loot.
Perhaps I just need to learn to appreciate the bonuses better. For now, they just seem like insignificant numbers. Nothing like Diablo's "Recover MP on hit" or "+1 to Skill" abilities. Like you I'm kind of early in my Nioh experience, but it looks like you've been paying more attention to the weapon abilities. Are there any particularly notable weapon abilities, or are they all just "plus X to stat" abilities?

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

Well in the case of Borderlands I've seen the term "Looter Shooter" used quite a few times. It rhymes so it must be legit.

I guess you could describe the Souls series in the same way of "build follows weapons". You can decide in the beginning if you're going to focus on a particular stat, but I think most players on their first time through the game find a weapon/class of weapon they like and then decide to focus on strength/dex and how much mobility they want.

Dark souls kind of shows why this system might not work well with melee. Imagine a dark souls with random weapons. The attacks, combos and techs would all be randomly made. Just getting the animations right would be a mountain of a task, but the bigger issue would be in gameplay. You tend stick with a weapon in dark souls. You need all that time just to learn the timing. You might keep one weapon for 90% of your game, so if that one weapon you picked happen to be badly made (as happens with random loot) you could render the game impossible. In BL you go through guns rather quick so if you get one bad you toss it and grabs a new one. Repeat until you find the random cool one. (That maybe sounds bad, but it works.)

I'd argue Nioh is the game with the mix you're looking at. It's not like Borderlands completely random with different animations and shotguns that instakill but shoot behind you, but the stats are still, for the most part, random. So far I haven't found anything too radical in terms of weird loot, so how well Nioh pulls it off I wouldn't be able to say as I'm very early in the game, but I think it shows that a third-person melee RPG still works with some form of randomized loot. The main stats that differentiate in the loot seem almost independent of your character's progressive stats. It's not a perfect system, but it makes things interesting when you find a random powerful weapon in a dude's toolkit in some cave. I think it's appropriate for the game, and it makes running through similar areas feel worth doing just because you might pick something else up that's neat.

I was a bit put off by the Nioh loot system. Granted, the combat more than made up for it, but I often found myself barely bothering to even see what I just picked up. I'd just grab stuff and keep going because it was all stuff I'd picked up before, minus a few changes in stats.
I just got a PS4 Pro and with it being my first next-gen console, I have been excitedly pin-balling between this game and Bloodborne. I found that Bloodborne (and every other souls game for that matter) did a much better job at keeping me interested whenever I discovered a chest or a dead body with loot.
Perhaps I just need to learn to appreciate the bonuses better. For now, they just seem like insignificant numbers. Nothing like Diablo's "Recover MP on hit" or "+1 to Skill" abilities. Like you I'm kind of early in my Nioh experience, but it looks like you've been paying more attention to the weapon abilities. Are there any particularly notable weapon abilities, or are they all just "plus X to stat" abilities?

My cheep idea for bloodborn is to include random weapons by randomly combining two half's of trick weapons. Like you could combine the short cleaver form with the whip form of the cane. It would look horrible with animations, though.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I was a bit put off by the Nioh loot system. Granted, the combat more than made up for it, but I often found myself barely bothering to even see what I just picked up. I'd just grab stuff and keep going because it was all stuff I'd picked up before, minus a few changes in stats.

I have a question about how Nioh's loot / weapon upgrading works. I'm pretty much done with any game where I'm constantly getting new slightly better weapons because I've gotten so sick of inventory management, it just wastes my time and adds literally nothing to the game. I only played one of the betas for like an hour and honestly did not give the game a fair shake at learning the mechanics and whatnot. I do recall picking up better weapons pretty frequently in my very short time playing though. My main question is can you pretty much stick to a weapon or a couple weapons throughout your playthrough (similar to a Souls games) via upgrading?

 

[sageoftruth]

Because it's a shit system?

Loot created by a RNG means you basically never get anything interesting. It all just averages out into a pile of level-appropriate blandness. Maybe the RNG will cough out something notable, but it's 99% oh-look-another-fucking-SMG. Even when you do find something notable you'll replace it in ten minutes when you find something with 10% more DPS.

I'd rather get loot that was designed by a game designer to be cool and distinctive. If that means less loot then so be it. Less time wasted having to perform busywork inventory maintenance.

Amen.

Random loot games basically kil any fun in finding loot.

In Diablo 2 I found it was ok since you were looking for the carefully crafted unique/set/legendary items. And the game was pretty fun experimenting with builds.

Also, Diablo 2 had some pretty nifty bonus traits for weapons, like HP/MP absorption, free skill points, knockback, etc. I think all Action/RPG mechanics can become stale if they're focused too exclusively on numbers. I've heard TB complain about games with skill trees that are mostly "Plus % to stat" bonuses rather than things that have an effect on how you play the game. I remember getting an MP absorption ring as a Barbarian and being able to regain all my MP every time I whirlwinded through a group of enemies. Good times.

 

[Quellist]

I couldn't agree more, inventory management needs to go (or be greatly toned down) in just about every game with it.

*SNIP*

I really hope you don't include RPGs in that!

 

[sageoftruth]

I was a bit put off by the Nioh loot system. Granted, the combat more than made up for it, but I often found myself barely bothering to even see what I just picked up. I'd just grab stuff and keep going because it was all stuff I'd picked up before, minus a few changes in stats.

I have a question about how Nioh's loot / weapon upgrading works. I'm pretty much done with any game where I'm constantly getting new slightly better weapons because I've gotten so sick of inventory management, it just wastes my time and adds literally nothing to the game. I only played one of the betas for like an hour and honestly did not give the game a fair shake at learning the mechanics and whatnot. I do recall picking up better weapons pretty frequently in my very short time playing though. My main question is can you pretty much stick to a weapon or a couple weapons throughout your playthrough (similar to a Souls games) via upgrading?

Fortunately, you can. I mean, the inventory management is kind of inevitable thanks to all the mostly useless loot you'll find, but after the first boss (Not the tutorial boss mind you), you can access the blacksmith, who can level up your weapon by fusing another weapon to it from your inventory.
It's called "Soul Binding". Your weapon gets none of the other weapon's traits, but it does get that weapon's level. So if you're particularly attached to a weapon, you can Soul Bind it with higher-level weapons to ensure that it does respectable damage throughout the game.

 

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

Did somebody say "Borderlands"?

Honestly, I have no idea what to call the game since I feel like calling it a "Diablo clone" doesn't fit. I mean, yeah, you kill things, numbers happen, and you get loot. Loots of loot. Like, damn son.

The only thing that comes to mind is just "shoot n loot". It's not really an RPG and technically it's a shooter, but without all the baggage of it being one. The game doesn't take itself seriously at all, and even makes fun of both genres.

I think Borderlands is it's own area since there's a lot going on, and calling it an action-adventure game is a cop-out, but eh.

I like the game, but I still have no idea how I would label the game.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I couldn't agree more, inventory management needs to go (or be greatly toned down) in just about every game with it.

*SNIP*

I really hope you don't include RPGs in that!

You can tie damage increases to character levels instead of weapons to eliminate most of inventory management. Not even DnD has near the inventory management of lots of video game RPGs. The Souls games does inventory really well by giving you one of everything, then you upgrade it to keep it respectful if you like it. Then, you get basically generic currency from every enemy kill to buy what you want vs caring around an armory and selling all the crap to get money, it literally takes out the middle man. Just about every RPG's loot system adds literally nothing to the game and only wastes the player's time with inventory management. What video game RPGs severely lack is actual role-playing, that's literally what the genre is all about yet very few actually focus on role-playing. I'm tired of RPGs parading as action adventure games with bad combat and everyone is fine with the shit combat because "it's good for an RPG".

Fortunately, you can. I mean, the inventory management is kind of inevitable thanks to all the mostly useless loot you'll find, but after the first boss (Not the tutorial boss mind you), you can access the blacksmith, who can level up your weapon by fusing another weapon to it from your inventory.
It's called "Soul Binding". Your weapon gets none of the other weapon's traits, but it does get that weapon's level. So if you're particularly attached to a weapon, you can Soul Bind it with higher-level weapons to ensure that it does respectable damage throughout the game.

Great, I will for sure play Nioh at some point.

 

[Quellist]

I couldn't agree more, inventory management needs to go (or be greatly toned down) in just about every game with it.

*SNIP*

I really hope you don't include RPGs in that!

You can tie damage increases to character levels instead of weapons to eliminate most of inventory management. Not even DnD has near the inventory management of lots of video game RPGs. The Souls games does inventory really well by giving you one of everything, then you upgrade it to keep it respectful if you like it. Then, you get basically generic currency from every enemy kill to buy what you want vs caring around an armory and selling all the crap to get money, it literally takes out the middle man. Just about every RPG's loot system adds literally nothing to the game and only wastes the player's time with inventory management. What video game RPGs severely lack is actual role-playing, that's literally what the genre is all about yet very few actually focus on role-playing. I'm tired of RPGs parading as action adventure games with bad combat and everyone is fine with the shit combat because "it's good for an RPG".

I respectfully disagree. Tweaking your characters with different equipment profiles where each piece of equipment has different properties is half of the fun of the game and also part of the tactical thinking. Could you really imagine Baldurs Gate if every character did generic damage that just went up every level? Where would be the fun in that?

 

[sageoftruth]

Great, I will for sure play Nioh at some point.

I forgot to mention, the game has an overworld map, and the place with the blacksmith is strangely labeled "Starting Point". When you enter the overworld map for the first time, don't mistake "Starting Point" for the area you just completed.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I think BL was actually quite a big hit. It doesn't need to be copied by everyone to be memorable and I know people who never touch shooters who enjoyed BL thanks to the rpg and loot elements.

Maybe having an acronym that also refers to gay manga has something to do with it not catching on...prolly not.

"BL"? Dare I ask what the other thing is those letters stand for?

Boys love is what BL stands for when in the anime side of things. It's a type of manga or anime aimed at women where the main element is gay male relationships etc.

 

[sageoftruth]

I think BL was actually quite a big hit. It doesn't need to be copied by everyone to be memorable and I know people who never touch shooters who enjoyed BL thanks to the rpg and loot elements.

Maybe having an acronym that also refers to gay manga has something to do with it not catching on...prolly not.

"BL"? Dare I ask what the other thing is those letters stand for?

Boys love is what BL stands for when in the anime side of things. It's a type of manga or anime aimed at women where the main element is gay male relationships etc.

Ah yes. I've heard of it. Basically Yaoi in English, right?

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I respectfully disagree. Tweaking your characters with different equipment profiles where each piece of equipment has different properties is half of the fun of the game and also part of the tactical thinking. Could you really imagine Baldurs Gate if every character did generic damage that just went up every level? Where would be the fun in that?

I'm not saying that characters should all wear the same equipment and use the same weapons. For example, if I'm playing a rogue in a game, I shouldn't be getting leather armor +1 or daggers +1 at such constant rates. I should get daggers that are different like add poison or bleeding, not daggers that just up damage. Same thing with armor, alter resistances or add special defense properties. I actually changed out armor for important purposes in Dark Souls yet just about every RPG is just about wearing armor with the best stats and nothing else. New weapons/armor/items should be there to tailor your playstyle, not there just to have better stats.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

It's possible I am wrong here, but I think the way BL dose weapons feels fundamentally different then how a game like diablo dose it's weapons. In diablo you pick up a sword and it's a sword. Every sword you pick up has the same move set and your not going to change the way you play because you picked up one sword vs another sword. The damage and frills might change, but the fundamentals don't. (It's also not helped by diablo being skill heavy, you might never use your sword outside of being a stat stick.) In borderlands, you can find two ARs one with a high recoil the other with a low recoil and your going to use the two differently. (This goes for most of the other stats. If you find a really good gun with only one bullet in the clip, then your going to be playing very differently for the next few levels.)

You are right about the scaling in BL2. That got out of hand. BL1 was better, but that also had it's own issues such as double anarchy.

It's not the differences between the weapons, which are apparent and apply to all shooters. There's obviously different playstyle between low dmg, high RoF and single shot, high dmg, or scoped long range, or close range, etc. The point is that it's the build that dictates the suitable weapons. Sniper Mordecai/zer0 obviously synergise with snipers, Elemental lilith/hellborn krieg benefit greatly from maliwan hellfire, etc.

The character and chosen build dictate which weapons are most suitable. And while there are obvious differences between FPS weapons, BL doesn't handle loot any differently than other action RPGs. What BL did do differently was to blend the action RPG/loot treadmill with an FPS. I think they even coined the term "Shoot and loot" in lieu of "Hack and slash".

 

[Quellist]

I respectfully disagree. Tweaking your characters with different equipment profiles where each piece of equipment has different properties is half of the fun of the game and also part of the tactical thinking. Could you really imagine Baldurs Gate if every character did generic damage that just went up every level? Where would be the fun in that?

I'm not saying that characters should all wear the same equipment and use the same weapons. For example, if I'm playing a rogue in a game, I shouldn't be getting leather armor +1 or daggers +1 at such constant rates. I should get daggers that are different like add poison or bleeding, not daggers that just up damage. Same thing with armor, alter resistances or add special defense properties. I actually changed out armor for important purposes in Dark Souls yet just about every RPG is just about wearing armor with the best stats and nothing else. New weapons/armor/items should be there to tailor your playstyle, not there just to have better stats.

You can have gear tailored to your playstyle and still have Inventory Management; Take a look at Xenoblade Chronicles sometime. Different Armors are better for different things and can be slotted with multiple gems to improve them in different areas, Same for weapons. And as for Chronicles X I had armor sets for ranged combat, melee combat, better loot drops, piloting mecha...

Bottom line is though, some RPG players thrive on complexity and resent when it's taken away in favor of cookie cutter choices

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I respectfully disagree. Tweaking your characters with different equipment profiles where each piece of equipment has different properties is half of the fun of the game and also part of the tactical thinking. Could you really imagine Baldurs Gate if every character did generic damage that just went up every level? Where would be the fun in that?

I'm not saying that characters should all wear the same equipment and use the same weapons. For example, if I'm playing a rogue in a game, I shouldn't be getting leather armor +1 or daggers +1 at such constant rates. I should get daggers that are different like add poison or bleeding, not daggers that just up damage. Same thing with armor, alter resistances or add special defense properties. I actually changed out armor for important purposes in Dark Souls yet just about every RPG is just about wearing armor with the best stats and nothing else. New weapons/armor/items should be there to tailor your playstyle, not there just to have better stats.

You can have gear tailored to your playstyle and still have Inventory Management; Take a look at Xenoblade Chronicles sometime. Different Armors are better for different things and can be slotted with multiple gems to improve them in different areas, Same for weapons. And as for Chronicles X I had armor sets for ranged combat, melee combat, better loot drops, piloting mecha...

Bottom line is though, some RPG players thrive on complexity and resent when it's taken away in favor of cookie cutter choices

I'm not against actual meaningful inventory management. I don't like constantly getting slightly better gear, selling the garbage, and equipping the slightly better stuff (Borderlands, The Division & Destiny, Witcher 3 until you get school gears that you just upgrade, many other RPGs). I'm against what I sorta call fake complexity that seems to add complexity but adds nothing to the game. Say every new dungeon has enemies increase in HP 10% every time, what does getting new weapons that do 10% more damage for that next dungeon even do? All that does is keep you and the enemies at the same playing level, it actually changes nothing while making me constantly manage my inventory. If you just move damage increases to character level/stats and off of weapons, you accomplish the exact same thing while improving the player experience. Whereas if I get a new dagger that has a % chance to poison, that's something that can alter my character, then I'll look for a way to increase my attack speed and increase my poison chance. Compare that to just getting a new dagger that does 10% more damage. Wouldn't you prefer something that can change gameplay and your build vs something that just increases damage when looting for new weapons?

 

[Quellist]

I respectfully disagree. Tweaking your characters with different equipment profiles where each piece of equipment has different properties is half of the fun of the game and also part of the tactical thinking. Could you really imagine Baldurs Gate if every character did generic damage that just went up every level? Where would be the fun in that?

I'm not saying that characters should all wear the same equipment and use the same weapons. For example, if I'm playing a rogue in a game, I shouldn't be getting leather armor +1 or daggers +1 at such constant rates. I should get daggers that are different like add poison or bleeding, not daggers that just up damage. Same thing with armor, alter resistances or add special defense properties. I actually changed out armor for important purposes in Dark Souls yet just about every RPG is just about wearing armor with the best stats and nothing else. New weapons/armor/items should be there to tailor your playstyle, not there just to have better stats.

You can have gear tailored to your playstyle and still have Inventory Management; Take a look at Xenoblade Chronicles sometime. Different Armors are better for different things and can be slotted with multiple gems to improve them in different areas, Same for weapons. And as for Chronicles X I had armor sets for ranged combat, melee combat, better loot drops, piloting mecha...

Bottom line is though, some RPG players thrive on complexity and resent when it's taken away in favor of cookie cutter choices

I'm not against actual meaningful inventory management. I don't like constantly getting slightly better gear, selling the garbage, and equipping the slightly better stuff (Borderlands, The Division & Destiny, Witcher 3 until you get school gears that you just upgrade, many other RPGs). I'm against what I sorta call fake complexity that seems to add complexity but adds nothing to the game. Say every new dungeon has enemies increase in HP 10% every time, what does getting new weapons that do 10% more damage for that next dungeon even do? All that does is keep you and the enemies at the same playing level, it actually changes nothing while making me constantly manage my inventory. If you just move damage increases to character level/stats and off of weapons, you accomplish the exact same thing while improving the player experience. Whereas if I get a new dagger that has a % chance to poison, that's something that can alter my character, then I'll look for a way to increase my attack speed and increase my poison chance. Compare that to just getting a new dagger that does 10% more damage. Wouldn't you prefer something that can change gameplay and your build vs something that just increases damage when looting for new weapons?

I see why we aren't getting through to each other, I wouldn't describe any of those games as RPGs except Witcher 3. Guess i'm showing my age but i don't really consider so-called "Action rpgs" or games with "RPG elements" to be worthy of the name and wasn't really referring to those in my initial post.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I see why we aren't getting through to each other, I wouldn't describe any of those games as RPGs except Witcher 3. Guess i'm showing my age but i don't really consider so-called "Action rpgs" or games with "RPG elements" to be worthy of the name and wasn't really referring to those in my initial post.

I wouldn't consider Witcher 3 an RPG either, there's not enough actual role-playing IMO, but that's another whole discussion. Regardless of whether a game is an RPG or not, no game should have elements that don't add to the game and waste the player's time. Constantly getting new slightly better gear adds nothing to the game and makes the player manage more than they have to. Giving me weapons that just do more damage just equates to busywork, give me weapons that do something different. It's been at least a year since I played the opening area in Divinity Original Sin, and that game has far too much inventory management as well. The reason I can't make myself get back into the game is literally the inventory management, and I freely updated to the Enhanced Edition so that means starting over as well.

 

[Quellist]

I see why we aren't getting through to each other, I wouldn't describe any of those games as RPGs except Witcher 3. Guess i'm showing my age but i don't really consider so-called "Action rpgs" or games with "RPG elements" to be worthy of the name and wasn't really referring to those in my initial post.

I wouldn't consider Witcher 3 an RPG either, there's not enough actual role-playing IMO, but that's another whole discussion. Regardless of whether a game is an RPG or not, no game should have elements that don't add to the game and waste the player's time. Constantly getting new slightly better gear adds nothing to the game and makes the player manage more than they have to. Giving me weapons that just do more damage just equates to busywork, give me weapons that do something different. It's been at least a year since I played the opening area in Divinity Original Sin, and that game has far too much inventory management as well. The reason I can't make myself get back into the game is literally the inventory management, and I freely updated to the Enhanced Edition so that means starting over as well.

I think we are just gonna have to agree to disagree on this. Random loot I can live without, Inventory Management in an RPG is to me an integral part of the game

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I see why we aren't getting through to each other, I wouldn't describe any of those games as RPGs except Witcher 3. Guess i'm showing my age but i don't really consider so-called "Action rpgs" or games with "RPG elements" to be worthy of the name and wasn't really referring to those in my initial post.

I wouldn't consider Witcher 3 an RPG either, there's not enough actual role-playing IMO, but that's another whole discussion. Regardless of whether a game is an RPG or not, no game should have elements that don't add to the game and waste the player's time. Constantly getting new slightly better gear adds nothing to the game and makes the player manage more than they have to. Giving me weapons that just do more damage just equates to busywork, give me weapons that do something different. It's been at least a year since I played the opening area in Divinity Original Sin, and that game has far too much inventory management as well. The reason I can't make myself get back into the game is literally the inventory management, and I freely updated to the Enhanced Edition so that means starting over as well.

I think we are just gonna have to agree to disagree on this. Random loot I can live without, Inventory Management in an RPG is to me an integral part of the game

I think you're sorta agreeing with me as games with random loot are the worst offenders as to what I'm talking about. Again, I have nothing against inventory management when it matters. Inventory management isn't integral to an RPG IMO. You can start a DnD game with a character at max level with buying everything you want and you're still playing an RPG because you're role-playing the character. A lot of things people feel are integral to an RPG really aren't like even leveling and combat. I've played pen and paper RPGs without leveling and combat. Why must almost every RPG have you role-play as a character that fights enemies? The vast majority of characters don't fight.