Random thourght about portrayal of women in media..

[Vault101]

Are you just saying it seems they stand out more based on the majority of female roles in media? That men are more varied in personality and traits than women(edit)in media?

hmmm...pretty much

 

[maninahat]

I don't see how this is something specific to female characters. Equally often you have male protagonists that are just hollow archetypes

Often, but I wouldn't say "equally often". Case and point - name a few female videogame protagonists who look older than 28 (I say "look", to disqualify vampires who look 20 but are actually 900). I can name quite a lot of males who fit that description, but not very many females. So yeah, we get a few too many "meat head grunt", "grizzled space marine" and "angsty Japanese teenager", but even in AAA titles we tend to see more variation, including: "school bully", "Psychopathic Serbian immigrant", "fat plumber", "Decrepit super-soldier", "old super-assassin" and "MIT graduate". We see examples of all of ages, appearances, and degrees of attractiveness.

Hell - just look at Borderlands. In the first game, there were five (5!) women, which is an unusually large number in the first place. They're all different personalities (which is good) but they're all the same body shape, all attractive, and all young. Contrast with the many, many male characters in the same game. Borderlands II is breaking new ground by featuring a fat woman and a little girl. Somehow, we've only got this far. It's better, but it isn't there yet.

 

[Spearmaster]

Are you just saying it seems they stand out more based on the majority of female roles in media? That men are more varied in personality and traits than women(edit)in media?

hmmm...pretty much

I would have to agree with you then, although there are varied traits and personalities for women in media they seem to be far more sparse to that of male characters which have a more even spread.
I also believe that this has greatly affected society in a negative way because its a notion that seems to perpetuate itself, young people view it, it makes an impression, it is then expressed in the persons life and life experiences are usually the creative basis for characters in media, this has been playing in a loop for about 100 years give or take. I don't think its anyone's fault at this point but it does pose the most interesting question. Which came first the chicken or the egg? Was it media selling this view of women or was it people demanding it? or both?

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

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Wouldn't the best idea for creating more "types" of women in games and media be to have actually women create them? Because at the moment most game designers and people in media are men. If more women jumped on board, then things wouldn't be so bland.

Sadly, that's not as easy as it looks. Female designers are in shorter supply. It isn't a job women tend to go into in the first place, partly because (I suspect), they're encouraged not to from an early age. Designing comes under "technical", and most girls just aren't brought up to think about such things. It's a similar reason for why men tend not to see "housewife" as a plausible career path - even in an age where that is more than possible.

But then it's kind of hard to to blame media and game devs for bad representation of women because there is just a sheer lack of women. In other words, the reason for bad representation of women is BECAUSE of women!!

 

[maninahat]

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Wouldn't the best idea for creating more "types" of women in games and media be to have actually women create them? Because at the moment most game designers and people in media are men. If more women jumped on board, then things wouldn't be so bland.

Sadly, that's not as easy as it looks. Female designers are in shorter supply. It isn't a job women tend to go into in the first place, partly because (I suspect), they're encouraged not to from an early age. Designing comes under "technical", and most girls just aren't brought up to think about such things. It's a similar reason for why men tend not to see "housewife" as a plausible career path - even in an age where that is more than possible.

But then it's kind of hard to to blame media and game devs for bad representation of women because there is just a sheer lack of women. In other words, the reason for bad representation of women is BECAUSE of women!!

Oh I can still blame media. I know from personal experience that it is hard to write compelling characters of the opposite sex, but when there is a lack of good female characters in games (or just a lack of females in games, period) those male devs have a responsibility to counter that. If they continue to exclude or misrepresent women with shitty writing, there is less appeal for the female audience. With less appeal, younger women are less likely to take an active interest in the industry, and thus less likely to actually end up in a position to produce better female characters. When that happens, the whole cycle repeats itself, with a male dominated medium, unable to entice female gamers.

So whilst it might be tempting to blame women for not getting involved, they shouldn't because they've always been discouraged from doing so. Games aren't made for them, so why be interested in them? It's the devs who need to take the first step - make cool females for women to get invested in. That's the crucial point we are on right now.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

Im drawing (and writing) and comic series myself and I actually find female characters easier to create (more diverse, much easier to write for) than males.
Currently my main cast consists of 5 women to 3 guys and I consider the female characters to be better drivers of the story.

But I'm the exception that proves the rule, when I heard that they were making the Avatar for latest series a girl, my mind expolded with joy.

Honestly though I would just enjoy more female characters in lead roles these days, half the games I've played of late would have been improved by a female lead. Its sad that the only feamle protagonist I've played as in the last 5 years has been Commander Shepard, but she's still animated like a man.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

snip

Wouldn't the best idea for creating more "types" of women in games and media be to have actually women create them? Because at the moment most game designers and people in media are men. If more women jumped on board, then things wouldn't be so bland.

Sadly, that's not as easy as it looks. Female designers are in shorter supply. It isn't a job women tend to go into in the first place, partly because (I suspect), they're encouraged not to from an early age. Designing comes under "technical", and most girls just aren't brought up to think about such things. It's a similar reason for why men tend not to see "housewife" as a plausible career path - even in an age where that is more than possible.

But then it's kind of hard to to blame media and game devs for bad representation of women because there is just a sheer lack of women. In other words, the reason for bad representation of women is BECAUSE of women!!

Oh I can still blame media. I know from personal experience that it is hard to write compelling characters of the opposite sex, but when there is a lack of good female characters in games (or just a lack of females in games, period) those male devs have a responsibility to counter that. If they continue to exclude or misrepresent women with shitty writing, there is less appeal for the female audience. With less appeal, younger women are less likely to take an active interest in the industry, and thus less likely to actually end up in a position to produce better female characters. When that happens, the whole cycle repeats itself, with a male dominated medium, unable to entice female gamers.

So whilst it might be tempting to blame women for not getting involved, they shouldn't because they've always been discouraged from doing so. Games aren't made for them, so why be interested in them? It's the devs who need to take the first step - make cool females for women to get invested in. That's the crucial point we are on right now.

Yeah that last sentence was just me being a dick I get what you're saying though.

 

[Tippy]

snip

Wouldn't the best idea for creating more "types" of women in games and media be to have actually women create them? Because at the moment most game designers and people in media are men. If more women jumped on board, then things wouldn't be so bland.

Sadly, that's not as easy as it looks. Female designers are in shorter supply. It isn't a job women tend to go into in the first place, partly because (I suspect), they're encouraged not to from an early age. Designing comes under "technical", and most girls just aren't brought up to think about such things. It's a similar reason for why men tend not to see "housewife" as a plausible career path - even in an age where that is more than possible.

But then it's kind of hard to to blame media and game devs for bad representation of women because there is just a sheer lack of women. In other words, the reason for bad representation of women is BECAUSE of women!!

Oh I can still blame media. I know from personal experience that it is hard to write compelling characters of the opposite sex, but when there is a lack of good female characters in games (or just a lack of females in games, period) those male devs have a responsibility to counter that. If they continue to exclude or misrepresent women with shitty writing, there is less appeal for the female audience. With less appeal, younger women are less likely to take an active interest in the industry, and thus less likely to actually end up in a position to produce better female characters. When that happens, the whole cycle repeats itself, with a male dominated medium, unable to entice female gamers.

So whilst it might be tempting to blame women for not getting involved, they shouldn't because they've always been discouraged from doing so. Games aren't made for them, so why be interested in them? It's the devs who need to take the first step - make cool females for women to get invested in. That's the crucial point we are on right now.

No, that's not the crucial point where we are. We are beyond it.

You seem to be coming from the point of view that all female characters in video games are crap, which is far from the truth. Plenty of strong, well-characterized females characters have already been named and talked about in these forums. Most of them were designed/written by male devs. The first step has already been taken.

It is absolutely stupid and unrealistic to expect 100% of male developers to grasp what makes a decent female character - that is what a lot of you people seem to be asking, no, EXPECTING nowadays. Good writers don't grow on trees.

It is 2012 and the welcome carpet has long since been rolled-out for women (in developed countries atleast) to choose whatever the hell they want to choose and make a career out of it.
Whatever percentage of male developers have created well-written female characters have done their job well, done it to the best of their ability. The ball is in the females' court, they need to make the push. No more of this "lets encourage them to enter game development, lets be nice to them, lets shower then with rose petals, lets sing gentle praises to them", NO. Fucking enough of that. It seems almost EVERY field/occuption in the world seems to be all about "encouraging" women to do it, even politics. Whenever there is a lack of women anywhere, society is immediately blamed for women not being "guided" and "encouraged" into the field. This is 2012 and women have the power to do stuff, they're not 10 year olds to have their hands held and gently eased into life, neither are these the housewife days where it was impossible for women to earn big bucks. Now they CAN.

The founders behind the starting gaming companies, gaming technology and gaming titles have almost all been men, and they were NOT "gently guided and encouraged" into it. They wanted to make a goddamn gaming machine, some goddamn games, so they scraped up the funds, worked hard and DID IT. Granted it was the early 1970' and 80's s when women weren't exactly rewarded for risking such fields, but it's 2012 and things have changed.
More and more women are entering all fields, game development included. The change is happening, albeit very slowly.

Women are not hitting a glass ceiling in game development. To hit the glass ceiling you atleast need to have STARTED, and in most programming classes / software design classes I have attended girls are a scarce minority. They're just not interested. Again, the ball is in the females' court.

 

[maninahat]

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No, that's not the crucial point where we are. We are beyond it.

You seem to be coming from the point of view that all female characters in video games are crap, which is far from the truth. Plenty of strong, well-characterized females characters have already been named and talked about in these forums. Most of them were designed/written by male devs. The first step has already been taken.

I don't know where you got that idea. I never ever said that all female characters are crap. In fact, if you read some of my previous posts on the thread, I even give examples of how female characterisation is improving. I also talk about how female characters aren't quite there yet; writers tend to try too hard to dodge "weak damsel" characters, so they end up going way over-board, creating hyper-aggressive, flawless, bland !Strong Female Characters!; characters that aren't interesting beyond being superficially tough. In other words, we don't make many good female characters, and we're only just beginning.

It is absolutely stupid and unrealistic to expect 100% of male developers to grasp what makes a decent female character - that is what a lot of you people seem to be asking, no, EXPECTING nowadays. Good writers don't grow on trees.

I just want male writers to write better female characters in general - I didn't say anything about all or 100% of male devs - why do you keep taking my argument to ludicrous extremes?

It is 2012 and the welcome carpet has long since been rolled-out for women (in developed countries atleast) to choose whatever the hell they want to choose and make a career out of it...Women are not hitting a glass ceiling in game development. To hit the glass ceiling you atleast need to have STARTED, and in most programming classes / software design classes I have attended girls are a scarce minority. They're just not interested. Again, the ball is in the females' court.

I don't think you understood the point I was making. I wasn't saying that women can't become developers, or that they need special treatment to push them into dev roles. As you say, even though they can pave the way to whatever career they want, they are "just not interested". All I was trying to do was explain why they aren't interested - it's right there in my last post. Read it properly.

 

[General Twinkletoes]

I thought the pay-gap thing was finally discovered to be an apples-to-oranges comparision, that the 15% was caused by women in general valuing family/relationships more than ambitions to earn? Or have they done a genuine apples-to-apples comparision in the UK where a male and female doing exactly the same job at exactly the same capacity/proficiency still have a 15% pay gap? That would be really alarming :O

To clear this up, the pay gap is because women have a harder time getting promoted than men. If a man and a woman were working the same job, they'd get the same amount, but it's easier to get into a higher paying job if you're a man Coupling that with the fact that attractive women also have a better chance at getting promoted which isn't the case with men, it's pretty obvious there's still some sexism going on there. 15% is over the margin of error.
Also, I'm having a very hard time buying the "They earn less because they love their family more"