Rape vs Violence: A Double Standard

[4RM3D]

An individual that is prepared to rape is not normal.

Says our society which was completely different in the past, when rape was normal and acceptable. But do not misunderstand me here. I am not defending rape. No, I am just pointing out the situation.

Educating young boys not to rape is a wasted effort, because they are either never going to rape anyone in the first place, or there is something wrong with them that simple education will not fix.

Not to rape, not to kill, not to steal, not to drive 200 miles on the wrong lane... someone has to teach them. We are not naturally born with the knowledge that somethings are wrong while other things are not.

CAPTCHA: 'question everything'
Huh, how appropriate.

 

[Gorrath]

Above all, I believe that we should strive to discuss these issues with calm.

When there are legions of people who insist on coming in and making the Grand Canyon-esque jump from "Rape should be a theme discussed in games" to "The protagonist should be raping everyone! Woooooo!" I'm not sure how calm one can be with someone who insists on missing the point that badly. Normally I'd keep hammering this point home as people enter the thread, but Gorrath has kind of undercut me by engaging their fallacious arguments on their terms. Damn you Gorrath. *shakes fist*

I actually go one step further even. If someone wants to make a game about a protagonist raping everyone so that they can make money from people who get off on the idea of rape, more power to them. I believe that no one should even attempt to be the arbiter of someone else's fantasies or what is acceptable for people to fantasize about? People have weird, even disgusting fetishes. Who am I or anyone to tell them what they should or should not be turned on by or tell them that their playing of completely fictitious games is somehow abhorrent. I stand for people enjoying themselves however they wish, so long as no one gets hurt. As far as I know, the pixels can't feel a thing.

 

[Chris Tian]

I don't know if a culture that is so backwards and dark-age-y is a good example. Especially considering that most likely none of us live there. I assume that because people in those cultures tend to not have access to internet and games.

There are examples of cultures throughout history and all over the world that would challenge every moral value you can name. It would all boil down to "morals are subjective" and render any further discussion pointless.

Well, there is Japan. There are a few 'interesting' articles about it, but I dare not Google 'Japan and rape', because I still desperately trying to get the last videos I saw out of my mind. My curiosity went to far that time.

I cant say much to that since I have no clue how rape is percived and handeled in Japan, and just like you do not dare to google that.

I will say however that in traditional Japan society honor and shame is perceived very very differently than in most western cultures, so if you mentioned Japan regarding your earlier comment about ashamed familys, that might be more an issue with how this culture percives shame and humiliation than rape itself.

Also why do people say rape is about power, when it's clearly about sex, by any means.

Thats not completely true, its very much about power. Its about sex and power combined, but I'm very sure most scientists that have researched rape agree that power plays the bigger role.

Just think why rape would happen so often if its just about sex. Someone could far easier pay a cheap prostitude instead.

Explaining the whys and hows is above my paygrade I think, but it should be fairly easy to find several articels, papers, scientific studys etc. that explain that issue far beter than I ever could.

 

[Darken12]

Above all, I believe that we should strive to discuss these issues with calm.

When there are legions of people who insist on coming in and making the Grand Canyon-esque jump from "Rape should be a theme discussed in games" to "The protagonist should be raping everyone! Woooooo!" I'm not sure how calm one can be with someone who insists on missing the point that badly. Normally I'd keep hammering this point home as people enter the thread, but Gorrath has kind of undercut me by engaging their fallacious arguments on their terms. Damn you Gorrath. *shakes fist*

This is not a rational argument.

The existence of a group of individuals, no matter how large the number, engaging in hyperbolic statements does not invalidate my plea for calm.

Calm is needed the most on the angriest of storms, not on the sunniest of days.

 

[Gorrath]

If you are viewing rape as a social construct then you are off the mark badly. Humans aren't the only animals that does rape, duck's, dolphin's, and several other animal's. Also why do people say rape is about power, when it's clearly about sex, by any means.

It is the current understanding that rape isn't done simply or even primarily for sexual gratification. If that were the case, people could just masturbate instead. Rape is done as a form of control over someone else. Likely it will lead to sexual gratification as well for the rapist (though that is also not guaranteed) but sexual gratification is not the primary driving force.

I don't mean to make light of the subject but I think this is a good example: Eating Ice Cream is not done primarily for sustenance. Sure it does provide calories but that's not what eating ice cream is for. In every way it resembles any other eating you do but the reason you are doing it differs from most of the other food you eat. If eating ice cream was just about getting calories, you'd eat a carrot instead.

 

[LetalisK]

This is not a rational argument.

It wasn't really an argument in the first place. I was just airing frustration.

 

[Smeatza]

Could you back this up by some statistics? I would be very interested if there is actually a correlation between education and rape, or is that more of a personal assumption?

It was in the paper linked in the post I was responding to.

 

[Frotality]

its a social issue, there is little games are gonna do to effect it one way or the other. until the stars align and humanity stops treating sex as either he-who-must-not-be-named or the singularly most important life pursuit and realize its a just one of a million-billion parts of life, people are gonna fuss over it.

casual violence is accepted because historically humans have romanticized violence to both publicly and personally justify acts of mass genocide. we are comfortable with our violent nature because we have nurtured and learned from it for so long, enough that most people can easily get their fill of violence from simulations while still being openly against the real thing. humans love to assume things that cause suffering are worthy of respect, and because there is less (immediate and direct) suffering involved with sex and its mostly just fun, we learned to be ashamed of it, keep it locked behind doors and never speaking of it in public.

or maybe its just much easier to simulate the fun parts of violence without the traumatic and terrible parts than it is to simulate sex without children and stds, so we've just grown much more accepting of simulated violence as a culture.

rape will be acceptable in gaming when effective sexbots are invented. you heard it here first.

 

[Gorrath]

So, tell me, how can intentionally inflicting traumatic physical, emotional, and mental harm upon another person out of sadism, be made "fun" or "engaging" without being, well, sadistic? Can't be done.

I read through everything you posted, but wanted to hone in on this bit specifically. What if you could prove that the only reason to have rape in a game is so sadists could get their rocks off, why is that a reason for censorship?

Strawman.[footnote]I'm starting to point out strawmans when I see them now, because I'm starting to notice how prevalent they are, even in otherwise sound and logical posts from intellectually honest people[/footnote] I never said I'd censor it. I don't attempt to censor Manhunt or God of War III either. Censorship, as defined by wikipedia, is:

"Censorship is the suppression of speech or other public communication which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient as determined by a government, media outlet, or other controlling body."

Alright, admittedly if I had my own website, I might remove a video of a rape videogame (which there are some out there) or shut down a thread in support of it. If thats your definition of controlling body, then yes, I suppose I'd be censoring. I however, don't want to extend that censorship to be a mandate, and don't want a law regarding it. I don't like it, but I won't try to ban it either.

Why would you care if someone played a rape game to get off? It does not affect you in any way, shape or form.

We do not exist in a bubble. If it stays on private property, then yes, it doesn't affect me. However its something I'd protest if it were being included in a Thanksgiving day parade. All the aspects of a parade float marching through the public streets as sanctioned by the government of that town or city, tax-supported, may not be covered under freedom of speech - I'm not familiar with constitutional law and its relation to giant Snoopy balloons.

I realize you didn't address censorship at all in your post, but I can only presume that everyone arguing why rape should be treated differently than anything else supports the idea of censoring it.

Again, strawman. You can't have a constructive debate when such a fallacy is the cornerstone of your talking point.

If anybody here is going to be disgusted by the presence and trivialization of rape in a videogame, its most likely going to be me. I'm a rape survivor, as well as somebody who has participated in groups constructed for rape victims, and I've once physically intervened in rape, as well as whistleblowing it when I recognized that it was happening to some siblings that were attending my middle school. I'm more familiar with it than any person should be. However, that does not mean I want to make a law regarding a ban of such content. Freedom of expression (that isn't a direct condonement on the behalf of the government, ie the government praising Christianity over Judaism) is, in my opinon, vital for the progression of society.

Hold up a sec, I specifically stated that I didn't know if you were or were not making a point about censorship. In order for it to be a strawman, I would have to act as if you were making an argument that you didn't make. I specifically avoided claiming that you said anything about censorship. The reason I presumed that the individuals arguing against portrayals of rape in video games supported censoring them was because of the OPs concern about a double standard. If you do not think rape should be censored from video games, then you and I are in agreement.

I would not want rape as part of a Thanksgiving Day Parade either, but this seems like a fallacy of your own. We're talking about rape in video games, not rape as fantasy out on a float in front of a town. It is something I'd protest if it were out in a parade as well.

I wasn't trying to strawman you, and if we both agree that games should not be censored, then we aren't engaged in a debate at all but are in total agreement.

 

[4RM3D]

As you pointed out already, you can discuss rape in games as part of the story.
Rape can happen around you, hell, you could even play as a rape-victim, even a rapist (if it happened before); but could you do it as gameplay element?
I'm not sure...

There's some undeniable problems with it though.

1. What sort of studio could make such a game?
AAA studios could afford it, but are too busy creating "Medal of Duty: Modern Battlefield 7".

Indie/Small studios? They'd have to deal with the flak from the media. See Tomb Raider. Even if there's nothing to get upset about, mainstream media will either get something wrong or simply find something to start the shitstorm.
Those studios cannot afford to have their reputation damaged, retailers not wanting to put it in the shelves or simply have their games banned.
And also....

2. Who would buy it?
As pointed out a dozen times already, the only way to even remotely justify rape in a game, movie or book for that matter, is to be the villain.
This however, raises the question who would like to play as a such a character. In all those games like GTA for example, in which you are no hero, you are no real villain neither. You're the asshole who's just in for himself.
Having your game feature a protagonist the players really despise, will negatively impact sales.

Sidenote: the latest Tomb Raider is the best selling game in the series despite the 'rape scene', or because of it?

Anyhow, choice in games can be a very important thing. If you are just forced along 1 path it will have less of an impact compared to when you can actively choose to follow a certain path. Then knowing you could commit rape, but choose not to do it, becomes something else entirely.

 

[bounty90]

Ok, I won't defend games like GTA or Carmageddon in which violence is committed just for its own sake. But, for the most game with violent content, there is usually some sort of justification for murder. It's war. They killed your dog. They are bad people, they are your enemies. In some sense you're justified in killing them. But rape... you don't rape your enemies. Rape is an act that is committed because... fuck, I don't even know. Ok, let me put it this way. You can picture a hero killing his enemies for a greater cause. But, you can not, for the love of god, picture a hero that would rape someone, even his mortal enemy. That's all I got, I suck at explaining my thoughts.

"If you die with a clean sword.. I'LL RAPE YOUR FUCKING CORPSE!" - The Hound

^ Game of Thrones.
Plenty reasons to rape.

Okay, offensive side is over with.

But those people you run over in GTA didn't steal your dog. That generic gang did. So why are you killing them?
Besides.. you're a thug in the GTA series.. Not a hero. There's plenty of games where you don't play a hero in.

I think it's because it's the whole pseudo morally right smug assholes who think even the slightest sammich joke means you're a women beater prick whose IQ is around 50. So you get flamed and belittle for calling them out their bullshit on labeling every person who makes the slightest jokes as sexist. Because you know, people are just too easily offended.


For me? I have no problems with themes like rape/racist/etc in my video games. Why? Because they're in books, movies, and tv shows. It's not meant for everyone, and not everyone has to like it. But damn it I am an adult and I want adult themes.

I mean hell Danni from Game Of Thrones was only 13 year olds when the Khal bed her against her will.
Yeah, it's wrong. But it's also a book and that was the norm for that time period.

BUT OH GOD. HOW DARE I DEFEND SUCH A ACT! I MUST BE CONTRIBUTING TO THE "RAPE CULTURE"! ( Because that's totally a thing apparently)

/ flame shield on.

They're rated M games. If you don't like having a adult story. Don't play that game. I am sick and tired of being treated like child when it comes to my video games and I am sick and damn tired of people that can never just not watch it/play it. Just because you're a easily offended person that doesn't mean the rest of us should have to keep our mouths shut.

The problem is literally this.

*Makes a joke about how girls belong in the kitchen*

Then everyone gets riled up and gets their panties in a bunch labeling you as sexist and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Morally righteous, smug attitudes, blah, blah, blah. How dare you say such a thing! You're a horrible monster who is causing women all over the world for getting raped and beaten!

is the general re-action you get from the people on this site.

Example: Look at what happen with Tomb Raider.

Really? That's PERFECTLY NATURAL SITUATION TO BE IN. You're in the woods with basically barbarians. What do you expect? Unicorns and Rainbows? But no. Those smug left wing right morally right have to be so up tight about everything just because people get offended?

I really wish people learned.. that....

Everyone gets offended by something. You don't like it? Don't look at it. Turn around and walk away.

Come on this is what Jesus preached and this what they taught me in second grade.

( I mean unless... someone is getting murdered.. Call the cops.)

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it should be censored and it shouldn't mean you get to go around belittling people just because they're not a politic correct nut job that MUST PROTECT TEH CHILDREN!

Not everyone is easily offended and we shouldn't have to be censored because you want to play the good guy card.

I can't wait till the day the video games get treated with the same level of books and movies so we can actually have some more adult themes in video games instead of.

LOL, AMERICA FUCK YEAH!

You said everything I hoped to see in this thread, good job.

 

[bounty90]

We live in a age of someone being offended and having to censor shit so someone won't have their feeling's hurt. Not to mention you shouldn't mention rape because it add's to rape culture (what ever the fuck that it), or as darlarosa put's it, cheapens sexual assault, because rape is the most horrible thing ever and no one should mention it. The mentioning or joking of rape does nothing, except rustling the jimmies, which is always fun for me to watch.

One. Don't you ever dare fucking put words in my mouth.
I never mentioned censorship. The proliferation of rape culture isn't through just depicting rape. Never said that. You understood nothing of what I said. So let me break it down. Rape culture is the combination of factors in our media and social structure that reinforce the idea that the attacker has lost something and the sexual assault and/or rape victim is some how at fault. It is a combination of factors as depicted in the media and in conversation that demonstrate sexual violence, usually against women, is warranted for some reason, and once again that brings it back to it being the victims fault. It includes groups that convince victims not to go to the police, and the system that allows most rapists go free(I forget the statistic), Or that make it ok to drug someone or ply them with booze so that they can be violated.
That is rape culture. When sexual assault and rape are normalized as simple things people need to accept ans their own doing to themselves and as something they(twisted as it is) have a right to do with others.

I believe people should mention it. In fact I believe people should do more and out right discuss it. My point was that most games don't. They use it as a cheap cliche. "This woman was raped, and she worked through her trauma" "thats how we know she's strong". It stops being a real thing and becomes a cliche without impact. Most games aren't well written so I don't expect the subject to be handled well. My point was that until games can approach the subject as more than just a horrible thing to do to a female character, and give it the impact and depth it deserves then utilizing rape becomes cheap
If a game uses rape and/or sexual assault in a cheap way then I'll call them out on their bullshit. Most of the time it's just mentioned offhandedly and never brought up because of lazy writing. Nothing is worse than lazy writing about a serious subject that is worth a lot more than that.

And you wanna know why people get fired up over a "joke" or a discussion. Its because for some people rape is a real threat every time they go out alone. Sometimes every time they come home. I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy but it's real fucked up that I can name ten close friends of mine off the top of my head who have been sexually assaulted, raped, or followed by creepy men. That's not counting members of my family. Yeah maybe I'm real fucking crazy.

That guy wasent even responding to you and you flip out at him, so maby you are crazy.

 

[Schadrach]

I never mentioned censorship. The proliferation of rape culture isn't through just depicting rape. Never said that. You understood nothing of what I said. So let me break it down. Rape culture is the combination of factors in our media and social structure that reinforce the idea that the attacker has lost something and the sexual assault and/or rape victim is some how at fault. It is a combination of factors as depicted in the media and in conversation that demonstrate sexual violence, usually against women, is warranted for some reason, and once again that brings it back to it being the victims fault. It includes groups that convince victims not to go to the police, and the system that allows most rapists go free(I forget the statistic), Or that make it ok to drug someone or ply them with booze so that they can be violated.
That is rape culture. When sexual assault and rape are normalized as simple things people need to accept ans their own doing to themselves and as something they(twisted as it is) have a right to do with others.

Rape culture as a concept will always be a hard sell to gamers. You know why? The logic behind it is very reminiscent of Jack Thompson's logic regarding violence in games, except that it's allegedly different with rape than other forms of violence because reasons.

Its because for some people rape is a real threat every time they go out alone.

Ironically, violent crimes in general (a set that includes rape and sexual assault but also simple assault murder, and all that other fun stuff) have a large majority of victims being male, yet most men don't live in constant fear of being murdered, maimed, or robbed.

Maybe I'm crazy but it's real fucked up that I can name ten close friends of mine off the top of my head who have been sexually assaulted, raped, or followed by creepy men.

So, how many of them fall into each category, because ultimately "was followed by someone creepy" just plain isn't the same thing. Especially given the leeway in what counts as "followed" and who counts as "creepy."

 

[4RM3D]

*snip*

Exactly the point I was trying to make. Well, minus the censorship. I haven't talked about that (yet). But you are right about that also.

 

[Gorrath]

Hold up a sec, I specifically stated that I didn't know if you were or were not making a point about censorship. In order for it to be a strawman, I would have to act as if you were making an argument that you didn't make.

And yet you said...

"I realize you didn't address censorship at all in your post, but I can only presume..."

The reason I presumed that the individuals arguing against portrayals of rape in video games supported censoring them was because of the OPs concern about a double standard.

Then don't speak about it under the assumption I want it censored. Ask instead if I'd like it censored, like the OP said. If you did, I would've responded:

"No, I don't want content regarding rape censored. I want it to be mindful and meaningful, not gratuitous with redemptive qualities."

Like I said, assumptions and strawmans ruin constructive debate. Most people you encounter instead of pointing out that you were incorrect in their assumptions, would begin to defend the idea of censoring it, even if its not something they're in favour of.

I would not want rape as part of a Thanksgiving Day Parade either, but this seems like a fallacy of your own. We're talking about rape in video games, not rape as fantasy out on a float in front of a town.

And yet...

"Why would you care if someone played a rape game to get off?"

If there's no redeeming value from it in regards to its plot or making some sort of intellectual point, and it is present just for the sake of having it present as a gameplay mechanic, then its value is for the sake of fantasizing, and therefore, its a fantasy.

I'm not opposed to rape being present in a game, I'm opposed to the idea of it being a gameplay mechanic or something done on part of the player.

I wasn't trying to strawman you, and if we both agree that games should not be censored, then we aren't engaged in a debate at all but are in total agreement.

At least on censorship. I'm just trying to point out the flaws in your post, even if I probably do overall agree with your stance.

If someone starts a thread asking about whether guns should be banned or not, and someone responds with three paragraphs about how terrible guns are, one might get the impression they agree that guns should be banned. That's why I said I was going to assume that was your stance even though you had not addressed it. In return you've clarified your position on the matter of censorship. So I think we're good on that point.

I'm not sure why you're focusing on the fantasy part. The point I was trying to make was that there is a clear difference between video game censorship and having rape in a Thanksgiving Day Parade. It is by definition nothing more than fap material or shock value if it has no redeeming narrative quality. You say you are 'opposed' to it in that context, but what do you mean by 'opposed to it'? Do you mean you think no one should include rape as sexual fantasy in video games? If so, why would you care if someone did? Would you simply not buy the game? Would you protest it? Would you try and organize a boycott of the makers/publishers/retailers?

Saying that you don't want to censor it but that you want it to conform to a standard (not a game play mechanic/done on the part of the player) seems irrational, as forcing a portrayal of anything to conform to a standard censors any portrayal outside of that standard. Part of what I'm trying to assess is what you want to have happen with rape, as a subject, when it does not conform to your preferred portrayal. If you simply won't buy games that fail to treat it with the sensitivity you desire, I am 100% behind you. If you want harsher action taken against such games, then you and I would have a disagreement.

 

[monkeynohito]

If you want to pretend to rape people, grow a pair and admit that it's a selfish fantasy of yours and not some crusade against an unjust system. If you're that interested in that shit, go pirate some Japanese rape game and play it instead of demanding I stop thinking you're fucked up. How entitled can you possibly feel?

 

[4RM3D]

I think it's less about the content and more about the player. It's true in a sense virtual mindless violence and virtual rape technically hurt no one. (except for traumatized rape victims soo no I guess that isn't even true anyways) It's more about the catharsis release from the players. If your stressed out having a bad day there are people you want to hurt. People you feel deserved to be hurt. You can't do it though society doesn't allow it for a host of good reasons. So you burn off that aggression harmlessly by killing virtual proxies.

The problem is no one deserves to be raped. It's an entirely one sided attack. The only catharsis is for people who are predators. People who want to hurt a victim...

No one deserves to be burn alive either, but that happens in games also. Games are a means to do things without facing the consequences in real life. What's it like to drive 200 miles an hour on a motorcycle and do crazy stunts? I would like to experience it. But in no way do I want to try it out in real life.

When you say: "I would like to experience doing crazy stunts with a car", no one is going to think you are weird. But when you have sexual fantasies, then you are a weirdo.

Double standards.