Reaction to Cross Ange episode 1

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

While my reaction to the episode was more muted than expected, it still feels utter disgusting.

For the scene in question, why did we moments before linger on the panties and the butt of Ange before the actual physical? Why was the physical needed since it would seem highly unlikely for her to stick something in there before hand? If we wanted to see her reaction to it all, why was the camera not on Ange's face and instead had a shot of the ass before hand.

If this is trying to go for a gritty prison feel, it fails during the credits showing the other girls in a rather well-decorated suite with one of them groping a naked person. There was no mention of surgical implants which is one theory and I'm doubtful a physical would cause the amount of bleeding shown in the end unless the woman did it with her nails exposed which would present a whole new level of inhumanity to the proceedings as that would make it torture and not an inspection. but if it was torture, why are the other girls not in similar conditions. The scene itself is just exploitative and tasteless only saved by it's merciful shortness.

The rest of the show does have some positives: the music is nice, animation is solid and the colors are clean but the show feels like a copy in many regards. The mecha feel like a copy of Seed's Gundams, the charcters are too familiar at times with the brother looking like Prince Clovis from Code Geass, Opening is well animated and sung but is way too close to Seed, and the whole norma/human thing feels like a worse version of the coordinator/human conflict.

Ange is also just unlikeable; I had a friend compare her to Seed's Cagalli but Cagalli was actually understanding and willing to understand the plight of the smaller people and she ruled over a nation that had coordinator and human in coexistence. Ange seems way too harsh and xenophobic and the fact that the console was modified before the coronation probably means that she is an artificial norma and so any development will probably be dampened in its wake.

All and all, I still stand by my statement of avoid this show; there is too much fanservice for a show of this type and any development of Ange will probably be undermined.

 

[[Kira Must Die]]

I was actually more offended by the xenophobic overtones than the rape scene, probably because I didn't see it coming.

It bothered me greatly because at this point we know nothing about why Normas are so hated. We're only told that they can't use magic. I'd get it if they see them as inferior, but to warrant a reaction like that, you'd think the Normas were slaughtering villages. We're given no evidence (yet), so what we're left with is everyone else looking terrible, especially Ange. While I saw the rape scene coming (due to your previous thread), I was not expecting Ange, who is admired by everyone and is shown to be loving and kind, to take a woman's child custody and straight up tell her, with a smile on her face, that she can just have another, better one. My jaw dropped to the floor when she said that. That's not just her being ignorant, that was her being heartless. She'd later that night go on about how Normas are monsters that should be eradicated. It bothers me because this is our main hero. This is the character we're suppose to root for, that we're suppose to be siding with when horrible things happen to her, yet she's saying such horrible things in the first episode. In a way I'm glad that she was stripped of her rank. Give this girl more power and you'd probably have yourself a new Third Reich.

Looking at it, there is some potential for a decent dystopian story about prejudice and the weak being oppressed, but I highly doubt the anime is that smart to see it, or if it is trying to say something it's not skilled enough to pull it off well.

As for that particular scene, not only was it poorly handled with all the erotic angles and shots, but it definitely played out like a rape scene. People can say it's a medical procedure all they want, the intent there was to humiliate her, and you can tell on their faced they got a sick satisfaction from it. When you get a prostate exam, the doctor doesn't tear your clothes off with a knife, and then slam you on a table while verbally abusing you, and then afterward leave you on the floor naked, broken, and ashamed. It was meant to look like rape, and there's no sugar-coating it. Not to mention it's completely unnecessary. She already had her rank stripped from her, betrayed by her brother, hated by her people, and her mother killed. Did you really needed to add rape on top of that? There are dark moments for the sake of character development, and then there's just being unnecessarily cruel to your characters, even to someone as unlikable as Ange.

So yeah, I was pretty disgusted by this first episode. I'll probably continue watching it just because I enjoy finding bad anime, whether it's hilarious or offensive, but you can bet that if it continues to go the way it is now that I'm gonna have a field day with it.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

]I was actually more offended by the xenophobic overtones than the rape scene, probably because I didn't see it coming.

It bothered me greatly because at this point we know nothing about why Normas are so hated. We're only told that they can't use magic. I'd get it if they see them as inferior, but to warrant a reaction like that, you'd think the Normas were slaughtering villages. We're given no evidence (yet), so what we're left with is everyone else looking terrible, especially Ange. While I saw the rape scene coming (due to your previous thread), I was not expecting Ange, who is admired by everyone and is shown to be loving and kind, to take a woman's child custody and straight up tell her, with a smile on her face, that she can just have another, better one. My jaw dropped to the floor when she said that. That's not just her being ignorant, that was her being heartless. She'd later that night go on about how Normas are monsters that should be eradicated. It bothers me because this is our main hero. This is the character we're suppose to root for, that we're suppose to be siding with when horrible things happen to her, yet she's saying such horrible things in the first episode. In a way I'm glad that she was stripped of her rank. Give this girl more power and you'd probably have yourself a new Third Reich.

Looking at it, there is some potential for a decent dystopian story about prejudice and the weak being oppressed, but I highly doubt the anime is that smart to see it, or if it is trying to say something it's not skilled enough to pull it off well.

As for that particular scene, not only was it poorly handled with all the erotic angles and shots, but it definitely played out like a rape scene. People can say it's a medical procedure all they want, the intent there was to humiliate her, and you can tell on their faced they got a sick satisfaction from it. When you get a prostate exam, the doctor doesn't tear your clothes off with a knife, and then slam you on a table while verbally abusing you, and then afterward leave you on the floor naked, broken, and ashamed. It was meant to look like rape, and there's no sugar-coating it. Not to mention it's completely unnecessary. She already had her rank stripped from her, betrayed by her brother, hated by her people, and her mother killed. Did you really needed to add rape on top of that? There are dark moments for the sake of character development, and then there's just being unnecessarily cruel to your characters, even to someone as unlikable as Ange.

So yeah, I was pretty disgusted by this first episode. I'll probably continue watching it just because I enjoy finding bad anime, whether it's hilarious or offensive, but you can bet that if it continues to go the way it is now that I'm gonna have a field day with it.

Yeah, that was what I was thinking and people have already made comparisons between Seed and this so this won't end well

Also the ANN forum for the impression has gone off the rails bonkers. This is a shit volcano if i've seen one

(every week, something happens to make me pissed, I need medication at this rate)

 

[FPLOON]

*sighs*

I originally had something typed up that had to do with ironic laughter, but I honestly don't think Episode 1 has any kind of intention on making xenophobia funny ironically or not, so now I just feel terrible... Yeah, I'll still watch this series because I'm really interested on how they're going to tie in dragons, mechs, and xenophobia into the overall plot that somehow involves fanservice on the side even after its first episode's implied rape... But, the fact that that one line Ange said to that mother really got to me in a way I never thought was possible left me with a worse taste in my mouth than the implied rape followed by jarring ending credit sequence...

Fuck you, Cross Ange Episode 1! Your overall payoff better be worth it down the line...

 

[Psychoalpha]

Pretty sure the 'physical' was just a euphemism or thinly veiled excuse for her getting raped. They've stated that she's to be a soldier, and clearly an unwilling one, and history has shown that people have done some truly fucked up things in order to break people down to rebuild them in the image you require. Physical and emotional abuse, up to and including rape, have been used as tools towards that end for ages.

My impression is that we were supposed to find it disgusting and unsettling, especially in such close proximity to the disgust many people probably felt for her just prior to that, at her treatment of the mother and child. On some level, once it's normal for people to see her revealed as the thing she's reviled, and to think "Hah, now she'll get what she deserves.", so to then turn that around once again by having something happen to her that nobody expected or would think anyone deserved... Well. I don't know anything about the source material, if there is any, but for the moment I'm willing to give the show the benefit of the doubt that it was all done on purpose to jerk at the emotional responses of the audience rather than strictly for titillation.

As to the shot showing the women lounging around and in various states of undress and sexual interaction, I've only a few thoughts:

1) It's not always the case that what you see in the opening or closing of an anime is actually what you're going to get in the anime. Hell, sometimes it's deliberately misleading.

2) Part of the breaking them down/building them up will involve sexuality in some way, whether deliberately encouraged to foster integration, or as a defensive mechanism to forge connections in response to the brutality and ostracism their situation represents.

3) It'll be fanservice designed to make those who respond to it feel conflicted for doing so, because the whole situation is so completely fucked up.

4) It'll just be fanservice.

I don't think over-analysis of one episode is going to answer any of that, really, so I'll keep watching to see how it plays out. I like the character and technology designs, and Dragons vs Mechs is a huge A+ for me, so it's worth giving a try.

Moving on, I'm kind of confused as to why people are having trouble with this bit:

It bothered me greatly because at this point we know nothing about why Normas are so hated. We're only told that they can't use magic. I'd get it if they see them as inferior, but to warrant a reaction like that, you'd think the Normas were slaughtering villages. We're given no evidence (yet), so what we're left with is everyone else looking terrible, especially Ange. While I saw the rape scene coming (due to your previous thread), I was not expecting Ange, who is admired by everyone and is shown to be loving and kind, to take a woman's child custody and straight up tell her, with a smile on her face, that she can just have another, better one. My jaw dropped to the floor when she said that. That's not just her being ignorant, that was her being heartless.

I can't really agree with any of this. What we are shown is that Ange is a good person by most of our standards, at least what little bit we saw. She puts friends before victory, she's kind to people, we are painted a picture of someone who is by our standards a good person. But good people can hold terrible ideas in their hearts if they don't know otherwise. Ange's reaction (not to mention everyone else) to the child, and the idea of Normas, was from the perspective that they aren't human. That they are monsters who simply look like humans. From her perspective, a Norma is like a zombie: It may be shaped like a human, but it's ultimately just a monster to be disposed of.

Obviously she's wrong, but for her to be so wrong it has to be something well and deliberately engrained into their society. Note that even the child's mother never tried to defend the idea that Normas might not be monsters, only that they were either mistaken, or that she would do everything she could to keep the child in check. She was the character in the zombie movie who's hated zombies, only to find out someone she loves has been infected, complete with trying to bargain with others to save them.

As for why they think this? We obviously don't know how, but the why appears pretty obvious. We're not only told they can't use magic, we're shown that they can destroy it. This is a society whose core ideal seems to be that the Light of Mana has elevated humanity above the petty crimes and wars of the past, that the Light of Mana is what lets everyone live peacefully and safely together, that the ultimate expression of their royalty is how their Light of Mana will protect everyone. It might as well be God's grace made manifest as a divine blessing of peace and prosperity on their way of life.

And into this, they introduce the concept of people who cannot use or be affected by the Light of Mana. The test for a Norma looks to be erecting a shield of Mana around them, and whether or not they can just walk through it like it isn't there. There were multiple people who threw up that barrier around a child, and she just toddled right through it. Were I one of the people responsible for hammering this society into shape way back when, I would look very, very poorly on people who for whatever reason can completely ignore Mana.

I'm not trying to say that this excuses anything. Treating people as if they're monsters because of a quirk of their birth is pretty obviously horrible. But it's certainly an understandable setting element, and I felt that Ange's presentation as a 'good person' really served to underscore how deeply her society has been brainwashed into believing that these Normas are only human-shaped monsters who will, if left to their own devices, destroy their entirety society.

Sorry for rambling, that went on longer than I'd expected it to.

 

[Akjosch]

I'm not trying to say that this excuses anything. Treating people as if they're monsters because of a quirk of their birth is pretty obviously horrible. But it's certainly an understandable setting element, and I felt that Ange's presentation as a 'good person' really served to underscore how deeply her society has been brainwashed into believing that these Normas are only human-shaped monsters who will, if left to their own devices, destroy their entirety society.

The name they use for them kinda gives it away, doesn't it? The Normas are the ... normals (granted, it's less obvious for the Japanese audience). They're the "in-valids" of Gattaca. Only in this setting, they seem to actually have some kind on inherent ability which makes them dangerous ...

... which smells of an engineered, fake utopia; "Scrapped Princess" style.

The whole first episode was an honest, brutal and unsettling dismantling of such utopia. Media show featuring young, female, attractive stars spouting "let's love each other!" nonsense followed by a whole squad of police/special forces taking away a child from her mother. Ange's speech about how much she loves this peaceful world followed by a coup d'état by her brother, violent death of her mother and her being on the receiving end of the law enforcement for something she has no control over.

She gets stripped of everything and it starts way before the prison scene: Her family, friends, self-image, rights, even her name. She's left with nothing but herself, lying there on the floor sobbing and bleeding.

 

[[Kira Must Die]]

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Alright then, if you're getting something more out of this, then that's fine. For me, however, I don't think the anime is that smart or mature enough to properly handle such heavy material in the way you suggest. Those themes and ideas could very well be there, but to me at least, they're not executed well, and the anime had done nothing as of yet to deserve tackling these subjects. The show is still presented primarily as an ecchi anime, and one that's way over it's own head, at that. In my opinion the anime is not worth looking deeper into, because it treats it's themes so distastefully and immaturely. It comes across as being mean-spirited and ugly, and not in a good way.

I had similar problems with Elfen Lied. The themes and ideas are there, and I'm sure they wanted to get them across as raw and brutal as possible, but I don't think it was properly executed nor do I think it's very well written. The anime comes across more as juvenile and exploitative than dark and mature.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

I'm not trying to say that this excuses anything. Treating people as if they're monsters because of a quirk of their birth is pretty obviously horrible. But it's certainly an understandable setting element, and I felt that Ange's presentation as a 'good person' really served to underscore how deeply her society has been brainwashed into believing that these Normas are only human-shaped monsters who will, if left to their own devices, destroy their entirety society.

The name they use for them kinda gives it away, doesn't it? The Normas are the ... normals (granted, it's less obvious for the Japanese audience). They're the "in-valids" of Gattaca. Only in this setting, they seem to actually have some kind on inherent ability which makes them dangerous ...

... which smells of an engineered, fake utopia; "Scrapped Princess" style.

The whole first episode was an honest, brutal and unsettling dismantling of such utopia. Media show featuring young, female, attractive stars spouting "let's love each other!" nonsense followed by a whole squad of police/special forces taking away a child from her mother. Ange's speech about how much she loves this peaceful world followed by a coup d'état by her brother, violent death of her mother and her being on the receiving end of the law enforcement for something she has no control over.

She gets stripped of everything and it starts way before the prison scene: Her family, friends, self-image, rights, even her name. She's left with nothing but herself, lying there on the floor sobbing and bleeding.

Perhaps but Psycho pass did the fake utopia better because it showed the consequences of the system on the populous, the mass effect of said system and the people in between from advocates to denouncers. It was well written with the villain and heroes being both fleshed out characters while exemplifying the system.

Even ignoring the fake utopia angle, the conflict is not nearly as nuanced as even the coordinator/human war which had people of varying opinions on both sides with the propaganda of both sides on display. Here, it's so very divided and extreme that it doesn't feel real or even humanly possible.

 

[Akjosch]

Perhaps but Psycho pass did the fake utopia better because it showed the consequences of the system on the populous, the mass effect of said system and the people in between from advocates to denouncers. It was well written with the villain and heroes being both fleshed out characters while exemplifying the system.

Even ignoring the fake utopia angle, the conflict is not nearly as nuanced as even the coordinator/human war which had people of varying opinions on both sides with the propaganda of both sides on display. Here, it's so very divided and extreme that it doesn't feel real or even humanly possible.

No disagreement here - this anime is overly blunt with its message and at the same time trips over itself all the time just to appease to the more seinen-type audience. It's the small things for the most part (diaphanous night gown on Ange, neckline plunging down to the belly on her mother in the balcony scene as an example), but the ending credits were just jarring, and not in the good "I can't believe what just happened ..." sense.

 

[Psychoalpha]

For me, however, I don't think the anime is that smart or mature enough to properly handle such heavy material in the way you suggest.

This is entirely possible. Even likely, really. I just don't feel that the one episode is, for me, a reasonable place to make that decision one way or another.

Luckily for me, at least, I don't really require my television entertainment to handle sensitive topics well, only that they not handle them too badly. The rape part towards the end is right on the line, so I'll see how they handle it in the next couple of episodes.

Really, though, my bar is set pretty low for mass market entertainment so as long as something provides more entertainment than not I'll probably give it a go. And Mechs vs Dragons is some pretty hefty weight on the Keep Watching side of the scale. >.>

 

[[Kira Must Die]]

For me, however, I don't think the anime is that smart or mature enough to properly handle such heavy material in the way you suggest.

This is entirely possible. Even likely, really. I just don't feel that the one episode is, for me, a reasonable place to make that decision one way or another.

Luckily for me, at least, I don't really require my television entertainment to handle sensitive topics well, only that they not handle them too badly. The rape part towards the end is right on the line, so I'll see how they handle it in the next couple of episodes.

Really, though, my bar is set pretty low for mass market entertainment so as long as something provides more entertainment than not I'll probably give it a go. And Mechs vs Dragons is some pretty hefty weight on the Keep Watching side of the scale. >.>

I know that. In the end this is just a first impression, and things can change in the 25 episodes planned, but this first episode left such a bad taste in my mouth that I've abandon all hope that it'll get better. I'll still be watching it, mostly because I like hunting down bad anime, whether their hilariously bad or offensive/infuriating, but in the off chance that it does improve, at least in some areas, I won't hesitate to admit it.

But if you're enjoying it so far, that's cool. While I'm not enjoying it I'm not gonna tell people they can't. All I can do is give them my views.