Reality Check: Female Archers

Recommended Videos

NotSoLoneWanderer

New member
Jul 5, 2011
765
0
0
Lilani said:
CulixCupric said:
Lilani said:
I'm sure there are workarounds for ladies with big breasts, and I'm sure it has a lot to do with how they use the bow and what sort of bow they're using. I think the only real way to tell is to simply build a model and try, or find a woman with breasts about those size and have her try the bow.
right, if they're larger than a size b, use a crossbow from the hip. the cliche of every female hero having large breast is insulting, not just to the girls, but male games too, saying that all we care about the character is if they're hot, and we aren't interested unless they're attractive.
See, this is a problem I've been seeing a lot of lately. I am a female, and I am not offended by female characters with large breasts, initially anyway. Large breasts on their own are nothing--they just happen sometimes. I have a few friends who are simply naturally well-endowed. And I don't mind this at all in fantasy characters, as long as the breasts aren't their only asset. If they have a complex personality to go with them, and dress reasonably for their situations, then it's not a big deal at all.

And you know what? Even skimpy outfits on their own aren't sexist. They can be obnoxious and annoying at times, especially when they're just completely unreasonable for the situation at hand, but they are not inherently sexist. A woman fighting in a bikini is not really any different from a guy fighting in a loincloth. It's not the clothes that make it sexist. I think Moviebob pointed this out: The reason we get so angry about scantily clad females is because when you've got a sexy male character on the cover of a game, his pose usually says something about his personality. He might look angry, determined, strong, vengeful, whatever. But if a sexy female character is posing, her pose isn't saying anything about her as a character. She's posed as though she's checking herself out in a mirror just outside the shot. Rather than her pose reflecting something of her inner self, she is posed to look as sexy as possible. And I don't think it's something they are consciously doing when they compose these shots--it's rampant in comic books, too. It's just how we've come to advertise male and female characters.

Again, I'm just a female, so I can't speak for how offensive big breasts are for men. But please do not tell me that it's offensive to females. You don't know that. Don't assume we're offended until we say so. We don't need anybody saying we're angry about something when we're not, or when it's simply not worth getting angry about. There are far too many other tropes and stereotypes in popular culture which need to be dealt with (like how Hollywood STILL has a huge aversion to interracial couples and couples in which the woman is taller than the man, or how in sitcoms the man in a couple can be overweight or ugly but the woman always has to be slender and attractive [King of Queens, Everybody Loves Raymond, Flintstones, etc]).
Though I haven't watched these shows in a while Doug lost some weight and Carrey gained some. Not nitpicking but either they couldn't switch characters or...it was probably that. Well my wife and kids featured a toned husband and a chubby wife. Everybody Loves Raymond isn't about the looks as much as he's not a very good husband. But hey I'm not nitpicking at your comment, just Hollywood may be allowing some changes (even if to necessitate main character weight gain) to take place in the formula.
 

Not-here-anymore

In brightest day...
Nov 18, 2009
3,028
0
0
theheroofaction said:
Now, while I am a dude, I am also an archer for sport.
it really wouldn't be a problem.
good archers bring the bowstring pretty near to their face, generally a little to the side for safety reasons.
The v-shaped nature of a bowstring would make it so it wouldn't touch a woman's breasts unless they were the size of bowling balls.
Woo! Archers represent!

But yeah, that. If you're drawing a bow in such a fashion that boobs could feasibly get in the way, you're doing it wrong.
Now I'm gonna have to go play dragon age just to check on how Leliana draws...
 

LittleJP

New member
Mar 1, 2011
125
0
0
Just like to remind you guys that there are several different draw points. For a woman, one possible method is to point the bow sideways and draw to the chin or to the ear.This avoids the chest area, but is a little cramped.
 

Colour Scientist

Troll the Respawn, Jeremy!
Jul 15, 2009
4,722
0
0
Hasn't this exact thread been made before? Like pretty much word for word.

EDIT: oh wait, my Internet fucked up. My bad.
 

TheIronRuler

New member
Mar 18, 2011
4,283
0
0
Tornix said:
As we know, female arches with too big boobs cannot operate a bow "without even smacking her across the chops every time she pull the string back*". What I am wondering, for the purpose of portraying more realistic looking females in a fantasy setting, where does the line go, how big breasts can a female archer have without it becoming a problem?

Note that I'm not looking for a solution for the big breast issue, I am perfectly aware there are ways. I am just want to know the maximum size a woman can have to use a bow.

*Paraphrased quote.
.
Bear in mind that the only female warriors that used the bow were the Amazons, and they cut one of their tit of. You wouldn't see women in medieval England, hell - If it even slightly resembles a patriarchal society, you will not see women running around with bows. Why? Because bows were mainly used to bring food to the table - hunting small game. Where would you find a woman that hunts in the forests? Done.
Modern day Archery - I suppose that up to a large C or D is too much. It depends on the width and if it interferes when you pull your hand back (draw the bow), so AA, A, B and maybe C are viable. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
 

mad825

New member
Mar 28, 2010
3,379
0
0
My coach has large breasts *ahem*, she doesn't even need an chest guard . All she does is reposition the bow so that it doesn't get in the way. Nevertheless, melons, those that are seen in porn films are too big...for anything. Can they even breathe?

I've seen fat men more at risk to be honest.
 

Jonluw

New member
May 23, 2010
7,245
0
0
TheIronRuler said:
Bear in mind that the only female warriors that used the bow were the Amazons, and they cut one of their tit of. Modern day Archery - I suppose that up to a large C or D is too much. It depends on the width and if it interferes when you pull your hand back (draw the bow), so AA, A, B and maybe C are viable. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
No.
Nonsense.

OP: When drawing a bow, you don't actually have to place the string across your chest.
Here's an image of a woman with her bow at full draw.
Note that the string lies in front of her breasts. Loosing the string should be no problem.

Some particularly long bows could perhaps pose a problem in that a full draw could cause the string to cross the chest (I, for example, have a fairly long draw. To the back of my jaw to be exact), but this is easily countered by using a slightly shorter bow. With a modern compound bow, or with old fashioned shortbows, like the mongolian ones, this is as far from being a problem as possible.

If you look at the picture, that woman is actually using a fairly long bow. It looks like she's repositioning her upper body a bit to avoid the string there. It's still apparently not a problem for her, but a smaller bow would probably serve her well.

Just google something along the lines of "drawn bow", and you will see that an archer drawing a bow does not typically pull the string across their chest.

In the end, the archer's breast size is mostly just a stylistic choice. Any problem that might arise related to bows can easily be circumnavigated.
Personally, I'd think a smaller breast-size would more aptly complement the stealthy aesthetic that female archers in fantasy typically represent, along these lines.


You can pretty much go up to about DD before it gets ridiculous in my mind (Upon further reflection/google image searches, DD might be a bit impractical, really, depending on the overall size of the woman).
But I might be biased. I like smaller breast-sizes.

I'd me more worried about the breasts hindering her from fighting due to back pain before they got big enough to stop her from archery.
 

TheIronRuler

New member
Mar 18, 2011
4,283
0
0
LackofCertainty said:
Batou667 said:
Real-life female archers wear a leather patch across their chests for this very reason.

Their breasts would have to be, like, a pair of watermelons to make archery impossible.


Screw bows. I want all female characters to be endowed like the sorceress from Dragon's Crown and just use Crossbows! Crossbows get no love!
.
There's a reason why Bethesda cut Crossbows.
Because they suck.
.
Tornix said:
From the looks if it the archery problem isn't as big as I previously thought. And as I said I perfectly know that there exist chest-guards and crossbows and whatnot, but I was curious about the breast limit if none of those problem fixers where available.
Anyhow, I appreciate the answers, this has given me a different perspective on the matter. Thanks.


One last thing regarding the Amazon myth: if a woman would cut off one of her boobs she would die without proper medical treatment which is something the amazons didn't have access to.
.
They "cut it off" at age 8-10. They didn't really "cut" it. It was burnt off so it wouldn't evolve with the rest of the body, but... This really might be a myth.
I'm serious - A-mazons, means no breast, which in term could be attributed to the masculinity of the Amazonian Female warriors, not that they have no breasts.
 

TheIronRuler

New member
Mar 18, 2011
4,283
0
0
Jonluw said:
.
So I'm partially right about pulling the string back, but completely wrong about the Amazons.
There weren't many females operating bows outside of modern day sports, where Archery is a common form of sport .Women compete in it too but I find it strange to see a woman drawing a bow in the common medieval england setting every single Fantasy story borrows from.
I haven't listened to the video but the reason why I brought up Amazons is to remind the player that if he has wanderers, sellswords or tramps in his story they aren't usually women. But that's just me. 'Amazons' would mean that they had no breasts, meaning that they were masculine because they were fighters.
.
EDIT: Nice pictures, by the way.
 

JesterRaiin

New member
Apr 14, 2009
2,286
0
0
TheIronRuler said:
Tornix said:
As we know, female arches with too big boobs cannot operate a bow "without even smacking her across the chops every time she pull the string back*". What I am wondering, for the purpose of portraying more realistic looking females in a fantasy setting, where does the line go, how big breasts can a female archer have without it becoming a problem?

Note that I'm not looking for a solution for the big breast issue, I am perfectly aware there are ways. I am just want to know the maximum size a woman can have to use a bow.

*Paraphrased quote.
.
Bear in mind that the only female warriors that used the bow were the Amazons, and they cut one of their tit of. Modern day Archery - I suppose that up to a large C or D is too much. It depends on the width and if it interferes when you pull your hand back (draw the bow), so AA, A, B and maybe C are viable. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
Yeah, kind sir. This "tit mutilation" business is not based on hard facts.

OT : Paint me stupid :
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.335761-Reality-Check-Female-Archers
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.335762-Reality-Check-Female-Archers
Also i'm sure this thread was discussed not that long ago.
 

TheIronRuler

New member
Mar 18, 2011
4,283
0
0
JesterRaiin said:
TheIronRuler said:
Tornix said:
As we know, female arches with too big boobs cannot operate a bow "without even smacking her across the chops every time she pull the string back*". What I am wondering, for the purpose of portraying more realistic looking females in a fantasy setting, where does the line go, how big breasts can a female archer have without it becoming a problem?

Note that I'm not looking for a solution for the big breast issue, I am perfectly aware there are ways. I am just want to know the maximum size a woman can have to use a bow.

*Paraphrased quote.
.
Bear in mind that the only female warriors that used the bow were the Amazons, and they cut one of their tit of. Modern day Archery - I suppose that up to a large C or D is too much. It depends on the width and if it interferes when you pull your hand back (draw the bow), so AA, A, B and maybe C are viable. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
Yeah, kind sir. This "tit mutilation" business is not based on hard facts.

OT : Paint me stupid :
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.335761-Reality-Check-Female-Archers
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.335762-Reality-Check-Female-Archers
Also i'm sure this thread was discussed not that long ago.
.
I need to edit my post.
Look up one post.
 

JesterRaiin

New member
Apr 14, 2009
2,286
0
0
TheIronRuler said:
I need to edit my post.
Look up one post.
Heeeeeeeey, some of us, less fortunate souls take some time to write a commentary.
Being old and stuff, you know. ;)

OT : I've found original topic. It wasn't here, so either OP suffered from <link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity>this effect or he visits very, very dark corners of Internet. ;)

Also :
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2133/whats-up-with-the-amazons
 

Jonluw

New member
May 23, 2010
7,245
0
0
TheIronRuler said:
So I'm partially right about pulling the string back, but completely wrong about the Amazons.
There weren't many females operating bows outside of modern day sports, where Archery is a common form of sport .Women compete in it too but I find it strange to see a woman drawing a bow in the common medieval england setting every single Fantasy story borrows from.
I haven't listened to the video but the reason why I brought up Amazons is to remind the player that if he has wanderers, sellswords or tramps in his story they aren't usually women. But that's just me. 'Amazons' would mean that they had no breasts, meaning that they were masculine because they were fighters.
Indeed. The most likely reason one sees it as strange for a woman to use a bow in a medieval setting is that it's an instrument of war. Women have by and large through history been excluded from the actual fighting part of war. Now, in a modern fantasy setting it is common to depict a fighting woman or two because the whole shieldmaiden concept is intriguing and adds variety and spice. Sadly, the whole amazonian myth - which is about as true as centaurs - stands strong with the creators of popular culture, leaving women who use bows in these kinds of fantasy works a rather rare sight.
Only recently has archery been taken up as an all-inclusive sport and leisure activity, which serves as a proof of concept for the notion that women can use bows.

Basically: You're right in that it's weird to see a woman draw a bow in the whole Albion setting, but in reality it is no stranger than a woman drawing a sword in the same setting.
The difference is that popular culture has been hammering the image of women in fantasy settings using swords into our heads over a decent amount of time, so that swords don't seem weird to us.

I don't know whether, on the rare occasions that women did pick up arms in actual history, they would use swords or bows though.
My guess is that they would have used swords.
Using a bow with any semblance of effect requires a lot of training, not to mention upper body strength. When you haven't actually been trained to be a warrior, but are rather picking up a weapon because you find yourself forced to fight, you're just not going to get any reasonable effect from a bow.
You can, however, do some decent damage with a sword even if you don't have any training. Sure, you'll be obliterated in a fair fight against a proper swordsman, but you're going to want to avoid those situations anyways.

So I'm guessing there's a kernel of truth to the "women can't use bows" myth: On the rare occasion that a woman in medieval society took up arms, she would most likely not use a bow.

However, in the hypothetical scenario of a warrior society in which women are trained in combat just like men, there's no reason the women shouldn't use bows.

Strength is really just the greatest obstacle here. A proper war bow has an incredibly tough draw strength. A modern sports bow rarely gets more powerful than 60 pounds. Most people use bows in the 40 pound area. To be effective in war, you're going to need something closer to 100 pounds. There are supposedly records of bows with as much as 120 pounds of required drawing force.
EDIT: Nice pictures, by the way.
Thanks. Well, they aren't mine...
 

TheIronRuler

New member
Mar 18, 2011
4,283
0
0
JesterRaiin said:
TheIronRuler said:
I need to edit my post.
Look up one post.
Heeeeeeeey, some of us, less fortunate souls take some time to write a commentary.
Being old and stuff, you know. ;)

OT : I've found original topic. It wasn't here, so either OP suffered from <link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity>this effect or he visits very, very dark corners of Internet. ;)

Also :
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2133/whats-up-with-the-amazons
.
You made me do it.
.
What's the problem here? I already wrote a response for the person that told me the same thing you did.
 

JesterRaiin

New member
Apr 14, 2009
2,286
0
0
TheIronRuler said:
You made me do it.
http://comedy.com/files/2010/04/fidel-castro.jpg

TheIronRuler said:
What's the problem here? I already wrote a response for the person that told me the same thing you did.
No problem here, no dead, sexy androids lying in the raiin anywhere around, move along citizen, move along... :)
 

mad825

New member
Mar 28, 2010
3,379
0
0
Jonluw said:
I don't know whether, on the rare occasions that women did pick up arms in actual history, they would use swords or bows though.
My guess is that they would have used swords.
Using a bow with any semblance of effect requires a lot of training, not to mention upper body strength. When you haven't actually been trained to be a warrior, but are rather picking up a weapon because you find yourself forced to fight, you're just not going to get any reasonable effect from a bow.
You can, however, do some decent damage with a sword even if you don't have any training. Sure, you'll be obliterated in a fair fight against a proper swordsman, but you're going to want to avoid those situations anyways.

So I'm guessing there's a kernel of truth to the "women can't use bows" myth: On the rare occasion that a woman in medieval society took up arms, she would most likely not use a bow.

Strength is really just the greatest obstacle here. A proper war bow has an incredibly tough draw strength. A modern sports bow rarely gets more powerful than 60 pounds. Most people use bows in the 40 pound area. To be effective in war, you're going to need something closer to 100 pounds. There are supposedly records of bows with as much as 120 pounds of required drawing force.
Hardly anyone used swords simply because how expensive they where to make and I believe not everyone were allowed to carry-one simply because it was a warriors weapon. The common foot-solider would have modified farming tools or pikes and archers/crossbow men would have daggers or short swords....Usually nothing other than a bow and arrow which they had brought themselves into war.

Woman wouldn't have a huge part in war however they would've wielded themselves with farming tools if it came to that. slaughtering women was consider to be a very dishonourable thing to do. The 1515 Archery law stated that every boy and man from the ages of 7-60 should have a bow and arrow, nothing is mentioned about females last time I checked.

As for the English war bow, they might have used a bow with a 100-180lB draw weight as this is what was recorded from the recovery of the Mary Rose. You can go higher really. Compounds and Recurves (especially longbows) can go above 60lb however not many people would need more than that as people training for the Olympics would only go for 60. most bow enthusiasts keep going.

That female example has her elbow so high that I don't think she can shoot for shit.
 

Jonluw

New member
May 23, 2010
7,245
0
0
mad825 said:
Hardly anyone used swords simply because how expensive they where to make and I believe not everyone were allowed to carry-one simply because it was a warriors weapon. The common foot-solider would have modified farming tools or pikes and archers/crossbow men would have daggers or short swords....Usually nothing other than a bow and arrow which they had brought themselves into war.

Woman wouldn't have a huge part in war however they would've wielded themselves with farming tools if it came to that. slaughtering women was consider to be a very dishonourable thing to do. The 1515 Archery law stated that every boy and man from the ages of 7-60 should have a bow and arrow, nothing is mentioned about females last time I checked.

As for the English war bow, they might have used a bow with a 100-180lB draw weight as this is what was recorded from the recovery of the Mary Rose. You can go higher really.

That female example has her elbow so high that I don't think she can shoot for shit.
Of course a common woman wouldn't be allowed to wield a sword any more than the common man would.
I was talking about the whole shieldmaiden concept when I was referring to swords, and in what experience I have with them in fantasy they tend to be nobility, but you're right: a commoner would be using some sort of improvised handweapon or perhaps a club of some sort if they would have to fight.

My point still stands though. Just substitute 'sword' for handweapon. An untrained person who finds herself forced into combat is not going to pick up a bow. When fighting with no prior training with any kind of weapon you're going to get a lot more results for your efforts with the old bludgeoning tool than with a weapon like a bow.
There's a reason boys in ye olde England were required to practice with their bows by law after all. The weapon is bloody useless if you have no prior experience with it. Sure, you might score a couple of hits with a volley in a army vs. army battle context, but I hardly think that's the scenario we're talking about here. Add to that the fact that handweapons don't come with expendable ammunition, and it's clear that no medieval woman in her right mind would pick up a bow if the time came to fight.

The skill of the woman in the picture is irrelevant though. The point still stand that many women with respectable busoms still practice archery. Of course, some use chestguards if they find that necessary.