Reclaiming SJW

[dragonswarrior]

snip

Ha!! Knew I'd get one of those posts.

As a warrior do you actually fight or are you just another anon clicking Post on the internet?

It depends on how you define "Fight." Do I go out and beat up overpriviledged white cis-males? Hell no. That would be stupid and unproductive. However I do make a stand when I see inequity happening in public, which frequently leads to verbal "battles." Which is fairly combative I suppose, gods knows it certainly is stressful. Additionally, as a teacher I go out of my way to educate young children on issues of race/sex/gender/differently abled/etc as actual issues that are happening today as opposed to abstract concepts that were dealt with in the past and are no longer relevant. Which is certainly tricky enough to do with stupid parents breathing down my neck, so again. "Combative" I suppose.

snips

I see several others have already covered the "privileged" thing quite succinctly.

As for what I am doing see above. You make the common mistake of assuming all social inequity happens "somewhere else" and that in fact there is nothing that can be done or needs to be done at home. When this is horribly not the case at all. I see social inequity happening just down the street all the time (sometimes literally in the form of police harassment) and thus do what I can in my home town to make a better future for all of us. And on summer breaks this means posting on the internet in my free time and hoping I can get at least a couple of people to listen. *laughs*

snip

This is kind of the point of my post though. Why would you let a small group of vocal idiots stop you from identifying as a feminist? Why not just be like "I'm a feminist, judge me by what I say not the name". *shrugs* I guess it can go many ways there, but this is the path I choose.

snips

Ya know... Actually that's a good point. *shrugs* *laughs* For me at least, standing up for social issues is a battle. Not the life and limb kind of course, but it's incredibly emotionally and mentally taxing. There are days when I don't feel like an activist, I feel like someone who has just been through a wringer with a thug three weight classes above me. Also, the fact that I was aware of the term Social Justice Warrior LONG before it became a big thing on the internet.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Rape is'nt a feminist issue it's an everyone issue. I don't deny there are more sex crimes against women but the number against men is by no means insignificant. And I dont think institutional cover ups really qualify as a specifically feminist issue.

Oh, certainly male rape is a serious issue. Especially in prisons...society generally seems to view male prison rape as either hilarious, or an important part of the justice system. Both of those are horrific viewpoints.

However, this does not lessen the severity of female rape. People should be concerned with both.

As to rape, or cover ups not being specifically feminist concerns...I'd disagree with that, if because of nothing else that feminists are often very concerned with them. Though, it could be argued that feminists are more concerned with the way society views those things, rather than the crimes themselves. Cover ups happen because people in power believe that the benefits of doing so outweigh the negatives, that is, that punishing people guilty of rape isn't that big a concern...that viewpoint is something feminists generally have an issue with. Likewise, the way society at large views rape, one of the main reasons there is such a problem is due to the way society thinks of what does, and what doesn't, count as rape.

 

[Cecilo]

I'm sorry but how does one keep their privilege in check might I ask??

Mostly by recognising that other people aren't you, that you aren't an expert on their lives, and that things that are perfectly fine for you might not be for others.

This is a lot harder, and more painful, than it sounds.

There are real feminist issues in middle eastern, Asian and African countries but nothing significant in the U.S. or Europe in my surely unpopular opinion.

So...rape isn't a real feminist issue in the West? In many parts of the US, rape kits aren't tested, they are thrown into storage and forgotten about. Topeka, Kansas decriminalised domestic violence to save money. US Republican leaders have said they want to render the right to an abortion meaningless. Sexual assault is covered up by schools and religious groups and the military.

Now, these are just the issues I can think of off the top of my head, there's a lot more, of course. Feminism still has a long way to go, and every step of the way, people will say that it's come far enough, or perhaps too far.

So wait a minute, I am told to check my privilege by one of two people, white SJWs or Other Ethnicity SJWs, White SJWs by the definition of what they are telling me, cannot know what other ethnicity are going through because they are white and therefore have the same unknowable privilege I do, and the other ethnicity can't know because they aren't white. So how can anyone tell anyone else to check their privilege?

 

[dragonswarrior]

Might I suggest you not tell people to "check their privilege"? As others here have said, the idea behind it is about self reflection. Used by someone against someone else, it comes off as an ad hominem attack. It is presumptuous and is often both racist and sexist. This is why the term has a bad wrap, because people have transformed it into a hammer with which to silence and shout down dissenters, which when used that way tends to vary somewhere between a logical fallacy and bigotry.

The problem is, frequently a debate with someone who doesn't check their privilege can't get anywhere unless the actually DO check their privilege. Rather than demonizing the phrase, I'd REALLY like to start seeing it get more acceptance as a concept. It's a good, easy to remember phrase and it represents something that I think is incredibly important and even necessary for society.

I don't see how it's often racist of sexist. Isn't the whole point of the phrase to check those things? Eh, like I said in the OP though, a lot of folks use it without applying it to themselves so you're probably right. *depressed sighs*

Bottom line is, I'd REALLY like for that and Social Justice Warrior to stop being viewed so negatively by everyone. Hence the point of this thread. If even one person begins the path towards changing their views because of this thread then it was worth it.

Rape is'nt a feminist issue it's an everyone issue. I don't deny there are more sex crimes against women but the number against men is by no means insignificant. And I dont think institutional cover ups really qualify as a specifically feminist issue.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/focus-on-violent-crime/stb-focus-on--violent-crime-and-sexual-offences-2011-12.html

As for your other points, well I can't really argue with those. Fuck those guys.

Rape is a feminist issue for two reasons. One: It disproportionately effects women. And Two: The rape of men can actually be traced back to the Patriarchal Oppressive System (or whatever the hell you wan't to call it.)

Thing is, feminism isn't supposed to be about "Women are superior!" Or... At least not the kind of feminist I am. It's about fixing social issues that came about because several millennium of dominant male power really fucked things up. For women AND men. A convincing argument can be made that the reason male rape is so overlooked is because men aren't supposed to BE raped in the first place. They are the dominant sex. Even when the case is male on male rape a blind eye is turned to it because of this reason. Of course this is stupid, and one of the many things that the feminist movement (in theory) is trying to fix.

Also, as I said. Rape, sexual harassment, and rape culture effect women SO MUCH MORE than it effects men that it isn't even funny.

 

[JoJo]

So...rape isn't a real feminist issue in the West? In many parts of the US, rape kits aren't tested, they are thrown into storage and forgotten about. Topeka, Kansas decriminalised domestic violence to save money. US Republican leaders have said they want to render the right to an abortion meaningless. Sexual assault is covered up by schools and religious groups and the military.

Now, these are just the issues I can think of off the top of my head, there's a lot more, of course. Feminism still has a long way to go, and every step of the way, people will say that it's come far enough, or perhaps too far.

Well, aside from abortion for obvious reasons, can any of the others you mention truly be considered feminist issues? Men and boys are victims of domestic violence and sexual assault too, funnily enough as you mentioned sexual assault being covered up, in the UK at the moment there's a scandal about cover ups of sexual abuse in children's homes by powerful government figures from the 80's where most of the victims were underage males. Personally I don't think it's the right approach to try to gender societal problems that can affect anyone.

Obviously this doesn't apply to female-only issues like abortion and slut-shaming, which certainly are feminist issues.

OT: I can emphasise OP but I wouldn't jump to labelling yourself with a controversial term, it'll just drive away support that you might have been able to win over if you tried a more conciliatory approach. As long as you truly fight for equal rights and don't use it as a shield to attack certain groups, you're fine by me.

 

[Gorrath]

Rape is'nt a feminist issue it's an everyone issue. I don't deny there are more sex crimes against women but the number against men is by no means insignificant. And I dont think institutional cover ups really qualify as a specifically feminist issue.

Oh, certainly male rape is a serious issue. Especially in prisons...society generally seems to view male prison rape as either hilarious, or an important part of the justice system. Both of those are horrific viewpoints.

However, this does not lessen the severity of female rape. People should be concerned with both.

As to rape, or cover ups not being specifically feminist concerns...I'd disagree with that, if because of nothing else that feminists are often very concerned with them. Though, it could be argued that feminists are more concerned with the way society views those things, rather than the crimes themselves. Cover ups happen because people in power believe that the benefits of doing so outweigh the negatives, that is, that punishing people guilty of rape isn't that big a concern...that viewpoint is something feminists generally have an issue with. Likewise, the way society at large views rape, one of the main reasons there is such a problem is due to the way society thinks of what does, and what doesn't, count as rape.

I agree with you that rape is a feminist concern and a concern for everyone else as well. Part of the issue, as you point out, is that rape has become quite a nebulous term and many people disagree on where the line is. I think we tend to lack progress on this issue because people can't even seem to agree on what actually constitutes rape or sexual assault. It becomes both a feminist and an MRA issue because even western progressive societies have some really badly defined notions about rape. So long is there is a major schism between how rape is treated due merely to the gender of the assailant or the victim, rape will be a feminist/MRA issue of concern.

 

[Cecilo]

Rape is'nt a feminist issue it's an everyone issue. I don't deny there are more sex crimes against women but the number against men is by no means insignificant. And I dont think institutional cover ups really qualify as a specifically feminist issue.

Oh, certainly male rape is a serious issue. Especially in prisons...society generally seems to view male prison rape as either hilarious, or an important part of the justice system. Both of those are horrific viewpoints.

However, this does not lessen the severity of female rape. People should be concerned with both.

As to rape, or cover ups not being specifically feminist concerns...I'd disagree with that, if because of nothing else that feminists are often very concerned with them. Though, it could be argued that feminists are more concerned with the way society views those things, rather than the crimes themselves. Cover ups happen because people in power believe that the benefits of doing so outweigh the negatives, that is, that punishing people guilty of rape isn't that big a concern...that viewpoint is something feminists generally have an issue with. Likewise, the way society at large views rape, one of the main reasons there is such a problem is due to the way society thinks of what does, and what doesn't, count as rape.

I agree with you that rape is a feminist concern and a concern for everyone else as well. Part of the issue, as you point out, is that rape has become quite a nebulous term and many people disagree on where the line is. I think we tend to lack progress on this issue because people can't even seem to agree on what actually constitutes rape or sexual assault. It becomes both a feminist and an MRA issue because even western progressive societies have some really badly defined notions about rape. So long is there is a major schism between how rape is treated due merely to the gender of the assailant or the victim, rape will be a feminist/MRA issue of concern.

We actually had a standard made in the US recently, but the MRA's take on it is that it doesn't do enough to protect Men against Female on Male rape. "The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.", they argue that this does not cover Women forcing Men to penetrate them, only when Women force things into men. And I would like to see that changed honestly.

 

[Thaluikhain]

So wait a minute, I am told to check my privilege by one of two people, white SJWs or Other Ethnicity SJWs, White SJWs by the definition of what they are telling me, cannot know what other ethnicity are going through because they are white and therefore have the same unknowable privilege I do, and the other ethnicity can't know because they aren't white. So how can anyone tell anyone else to check their privilege?

Er, are they telling you to check your white privilege, or some other privilege?

In any case, yes, they'd also not know what it was to be a PoC, but then they might recognise that they don't know what it was to be a PoC.

Well, aside from abortion for obvious reasons, can any of the others you mention truly be considered feminist issues? Men and boys are victims of domestic violence and sexual assault too, funnily enough as you mentioned sexual assault being covered up, in the UK at the moment there's a scandal about cover ups of sexual abuse in children's homes by powerful government figures from the 80's where most of the victims were underage males. Personally I don't think it's the right approach to try to gender societal problems that can affect anyone.

Not exclusively feminist concerns, no, but the abuse of women and girls would be, in that there generally is a gender dynamic at work. If nothing else, women are more likely to be injured or murdered by domestic abuse.

 

[dragonswarrior]

So wait a minute, I am told to check my privilege by one of two people, white SJWs or Other Ethnicity SJWs, White SJWs by the definition of what they are telling me, cannot know what other ethnicity are going through because they are white and therefore have the same unknowable privilege I do, and the other ethnicity can't know because they aren't white. So how can anyone tell anyone else to check their privilege?

Well online it's a little tricky sure. But there are a LOT of other kinds of privilege out there in addition to racial privilege. It's also dependent on what country you live in too of course, though a convincing argument can be made that there is a general view in the world that lighter skinned folk are more privileged.

It's also mostly about listening. Let's assume you're a black american and someone is calling you out for white privilege. Why are they calling you out for this? Why are they making that assumption? Do they have a point or are they just stupid and angry? Asking that question and taking a moment of self reflection can lead to awesomeness, even if the road there is very difficult.

Sometimes they're just stupid though. I admit it.

 

[Worgen]

Anyone who calls themselves an anything "warrior" needs to reevaluate some things in their life, and trust me, you don't want to be a "warrior." Real warriors fight and die for what they believe in, for the social justice movement there's no one to fight and nothing to die over. You have no tangible enemy, and no "war."

You're not a warrior for posting on the internet in an echo chamber among your peers, who will clap you on the back and parrot you. You're not a "warrior" for pointing out that women get paid less than men, or that minorities do bad on standardized tests because those tests have culturally charged questions.

The term "social justice warrior" makes it sound like you think that you're some kind of avenging angel for the underprivileged, and it makes people who hear you assume that maybe people like you are the ones who need to "check their privilege."

You don't need to "reclaim" the social justice warrior title, what you need to do is stop putting labels on things. Titles are about recognition, and you shouldn't need recognition for your efforts in order to try and better the world. Forget about calling yourself a "social justice warrior" and just do what you think will help your movement. Actions are louder than titles.

Actualy to me the term 'social justice warrior' sounds more like it was coined to mock people who were trying to do something socially good or whatever. Something to make it sound like they were completely full of themselves. Then again it could be like calling ones self a 'warrior of god' or something stupid like that too.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

You be whatever you want OP, just understand that the majority of people are tired of the constant whining and/or just don't care about the issues you do, feel differently about them or don't see a problem where you do.

For my part, I just can't stand the way you as part of a vocal minority have hijacked this site. I would be happier if the Escapist would just create a forum for you, or you all moved into R&P, really where those topics (hot-button/controversial) belong anyway. Then you can all moan about the world to your hearts content and I can enjoy Gaming and Off-Topic without the constant thread after thread.

 

[dragonswarrior]

OT: I can emphasise OP but I wouldn't jump to labelling yourself with a controversial term, it'll just drive away support that you might have been able to win over if you tried a more conciliatory approach. As long as you truly fight for equal rights and don't use it as a shield to attack certain groups, you're fine by me.

Oh don't worry. The whole point of this thread (and my... banner? Tag? Whatdya call it?) was to hopefully alleviate some of the hate towards SJW and the phrase "Check Your Privilege." Which means I dive right into it.

I do a much better job of approaching things on my "on" hours. *grins*

 

[Escapefromwhatever]

Personally, I prefer social justice rogues. Maybe social justice mages? How do you feel about social justice paladins?

 

[dragonswarrior]

Personally, I prefer social justice rogues. Maybe social justice mages? How do you feel about social justice paladins?

Paladins are unreasonable enough as it is. Can you imagine the horror of Miko trying to check someones racial privilege??? You'd have to use a mop and industrial strength cleaner after that debate.

Mages would be cool though. I'd like to be a mage...

 

[Gorrath]

Might I suggest you not tell people to "check their privilege"? As others here have said, the idea behind it is about self reflection. Used by someone against someone else, it comes off as an ad hominem attack. It is presumptuous and is often both racist and sexist. This is why the term has a bad wrap, because people have transformed it into a hammer with which to silence and shout down dissenters, which when used that way tends to vary somewhere between a logical fallacy and bigotry.

The problem is, frequently a debate with someone who doesn't check their privilege can't get anywhere unless the actually DO check their privilege. Rather than demonizing the phrase, I'd REALLY like to start seeing it get more acceptance as a concept. It's a good, easy to remember phrase and it represents something that I think is incredibly important and even necessary for society.

I don't see how it's often racist of sexist. Isn't the whole point of the phrase to check those things? Eh, like I said in the OP though, a lot of folks use it without applying it to themselves so you're probably right. *depressed sighs*

Bottom line is, I'd REALLY like for that and Social Justice Warrior to stop being viewed so negatively by everyone. Hence the point of this thread. If even one person begins the path towards changing their views because of this thread then it was worth it.

It often ends up being sexist/racist because it is often used without knowing a single thing other than the sex and/or race of the person being told to "check their privilege". Now I understand that the presumption of privilege is meant to be axiomatic to those traits, but that's where we run into a problem. If someone were to assume that, because I am a white male, that I've never faced significant racial discrimination, and thus hit me with the "check your privilege" stick, they have engaged in a bit of racism. They are making a presumption about me personally based on nothing more than their assumptions about my life based on my race.

I can personally reflect on my own life and know what privileges I have and do enjoy. This is why I say it should be used as a point of self reflection and not as a bludgeon in an argument. Now that does not mean that we can't talk about privilege and how it affects society or us as individuals; once we know something about the person's life maybe we can examine what part privilege may play in forming their ideas, but the axiomatic assumption about a person's experiences based on their race is, well, racist.

I do want people to examine how their experiences shape their expectations and their opinions, but I want everyone to do this, not just people we proclaim to be privileged. Whether or not the term SJW is viewed negatively or not I think is less important than how the ideas of equality, empathy and humanity are viewed. I would like it if people wouldn't associate feminism with the fringe crazy bigots who take up that mantle. I would like it if people would do the same for MRA. I wish people would stop thinking that Soviet Russia was what atheism leads to. But to me it's never really about the titles and always about the ideas. Call me a feminist, or not. Call me an MRA, or not. The important part is that I stand for the equality of people and their freedom to be who they are and want to be.

Rape is'nt a feminist issue it's an everyone issue. I don't deny there are more sex crimes against women but the number against men is by no means insignificant. And I dont think institutional cover ups really qualify as a specifically feminist issue.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/focus-on-violent-crime/stb-focus-on--violent-crime-and-sexual-offences-2011-12.html

As for your other points, well I can't really argue with those. Fuck those guys.

Rape is a feminist issue for two reasons. One: It disproportionately effects women. And Two: The rape of men can actually be traced back to the Patriarchal Oppressive System (or whatever the hell you wan't to call it.)

Thing is, feminism isn't supposed to be about "Women are superior!" Or... At least not the kind of feminist I am. It's about fixing social issues that came about because several millennium of dominant male power really fucked things up. For women AND men. A convincing argument can be made that the reason male rape is so overlooked is because men aren't supposed to BE raped in the first place. They are the dominant sex. Even when the case is male on male rape a blind eye is turned to it because of this reason. Of course this is stupid, and one of the many things that the feminist movement (in theory) is trying to fix.

Also, as I said. Rape, sexual harassment, and rape culture effect women SO MUCH MORE than it effects men that it isn't even funny.

I don't think rape is a feminist issue because it disproportionately affects women, it's a feminist issue because the way rape is viewed and the resources a rape victim has is skewed. Saying the rape "affects women more than men" may be true in a statistical deconstruction of the number of times it happens, but to the individual who has been raped, saying "It affects women more than men" ends up coming off as a slight. I get that you mean the former and not the latter, and that this is merely a matter of semantics, but its that view that drives a big part of why male rape victims are often marginalized even more than female victims.

Also, to say that feminism should be just as concerned (In theory) with male rape as female rape is a huge part of the problem as well. It's nice to say, but does it lead to real results? We have a serious problem in feminism where the theory of what feminism is about often does not fit with the practice. This is why I think it is far less important for me to identify as feminist than it is for me to explain why equality is important. I don't need to be a feminist to support equality, nor an MRA nor a SJW. I find that we waste far too much energy bickering over what it means to be one of these things than what's really important; equality is our goal!

 

[Namehere]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/prostitution-not-an-equal-crime-for-men-and-women-1.2706756

Apparently Leo wasn't as memorable in The Basketball Diaries as he was in Titanic. There's a large problem in societies globally ? near as I can tell ? in dealing with rape. This problem extends as equally to women as it does to men. Men are stigmatized into not acknowledging rape for a variety of reasons. Just as those in the sex trade are ignored in the ongoing hearings over new prostitution laws being established in Canada. The sex trade isn't a woman's issue, it isn't a man's issue, it's a human issue. Rape isn't a gender issue, it's a human issue, as sure as murder. Violence against women can be perceived that way. Or you can perceive it as undue violence.

Further more consider if you will that the perception of male prostitutes is that the majority of them service male clients. My parliament is giving this no attention at all. They're also conflating human trafficking with prostitution, as though somehow most of the people doing it were trafficked into Canada, which is patently absurd. Of course what if they were, what if some handsome young South American lad was run up here to become a forced prostitute? Apparently 'he' doesn't matter like he would if 'he' were 'she.' Consider the level of systemic prejudice that more then merely implies? Consider the police harassment of male prostitutes that must go on, if not because a cop looks down on hookers, maybe because he or she hasn't time for gay people, especially not gay hookers. How marginalized is that person?

A lot of issues that feminists have tried to lay claim to aren't just feminist issues, their human issues.

I see this ongoing campaign that is enough to make me weep: Because I'm a Girl. It's ironically pointless. These cave dwelling psychos in far away countries that like shooting little girls and are convinced women are good for burkas and cooking, would agree. ?Yes! Yes I killed the girls there! Yes, because they were girls!? This isn't a woman issue anymore. This is a human issue. They're discriminating against human women, sure. But to me, species comes well before gender. They're discriminating against the right of a sentient being to attempt to educate itself ? regardless of the purpose of that education or the gender of that human. I don't care enough about gender to care that it's 'just women'. That's bad. To launch a campaign and call it: ?Because I'm human,? is what is required. I seldom see rapists run off into the wilderness and try mounting a cow or deer, this is because they aren't human. That bond is the critical element to my mind. Our shared humanity. And these psychos wouldn't be killing girls enrolled in schools unless they were sure those girls were learning just like the boys. It isn't as though they even kill the classroom pets.

Its time to stop seeking gender rights, start seeking serious and meaningful dialogue in inalienable human rights. The right to education should be right on that list. You don't have to go to school in my opinion, but that should always be an option open to people. The right to you're body, privacy and a whole slew of other things needs to be right up there to. Feminism is a lens, and it isn't always the optimal focus for dealing with human issues.

 

[visiblenoise]

Saying "check your privilege" in any context has as much meaning as saying something like "check yourself before you wreck yourself." Surely, if you had a real point to make in an argument, you could skip such inanities and go straight to explaining specifically why somebody has made assumptions that might be unfair or incorrect? (or whatever the hell "check your privilege" is supposed to mean)

 

[Gorrath]

Rape is'nt a feminist issue it's an everyone issue. I don't deny there are more sex crimes against women but the number against men is by no means insignificant. And I dont think institutional cover ups really qualify as a specifically feminist issue.

Oh, certainly male rape is a serious issue. Especially in prisons...society generally seems to view male prison rape as either hilarious, or an important part of the justice system. Both of those are horrific viewpoints.

However, this does not lessen the severity of female rape. People should be concerned with both.

As to rape, or cover ups not being specifically feminist concerns...I'd disagree with that, if because of nothing else that feminists are often very concerned with them. Though, it could be argued that feminists are more concerned with the way society views those things, rather than the crimes themselves. Cover ups happen because people in power believe that the benefits of doing so outweigh the negatives, that is, that punishing people guilty of rape isn't that big a concern...that viewpoint is something feminists generally have an issue with. Likewise, the way society at large views rape, one of the main reasons there is such a problem is due to the way society thinks of what does, and what doesn't, count as rape.

I agree with you that rape is a feminist concern and a concern for everyone else as well. Part of the issue, as you point out, is that rape has become quite a nebulous term and many people disagree on where the line is. I think we tend to lack progress on this issue because people can't even seem to agree on what actually constitutes rape or sexual assault. It becomes both a feminist and an MRA issue because even western progressive societies have some really badly defined notions about rape. So long is there is a major schism between how rape is treated due merely to the gender of the assailant or the victim, rape will be a feminist/MRA issue of concern.

We actually had a standard made in the US recently, but the MRA's take on it is that it doesn't do enough to protect Men against Female on Male rape. "The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.", they argue that this does not cover Women forcing Men to penetrate them, only when Women force things into men. And I would like to see that changed honestly.

As would I. I agree with MRAs on this point. The scope of what is considered rape should be broadened to protect men better. The idea that the person doing the penetrating is the assailant is an unfair standard and one I think should be of major concern to anyone who believes in equality.