Recycling does not save energy

[Dys]

and other lies you've been told to sway your thinking.

The amount of energy used to collect and recycle material is much greater than the amount used to create a product from scratch. We aren't running out of land either. If the US had a 30x30 mile landfill, 900 square miles, it would last for a long ass time. Possibly 1000 years. That's a rough calculation. As for metal, don't recycle it. Sell it.

What I'm asking you is for an example where you were told a lie to get you to do something. Something major that is, something that is popular.

Blanket statements about energy consumption and environmentalism are stupid regardless of which extreme they are taking. Recycling can use more energy than producing from scratch, that isn't a garuntee that it always will under all circumstances.....

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

Oh and little known fact: Energy is constant so you can't really save it.

Yes, yes we're all familiar with thermodynamics here (I hope). No need to get snippy. : P

What most people mean by "saving energy" is really saving natural resources that can be converted to useful forms of energy...

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

Blanket statements about energy consumption and environmentalism are stupid regardless of which extreme they are taking. Recycling can use more energy than producing from scratch, that isn't a garuntee that it always will under all circumstance.....

Indeed.

The thing is that in order to do efficient recycling there's also a lot of issues regarding infrastructure and logistics that has to be taken into consideration. Something many countries have disegarded completely, which of course means that more often than not, recycling consumes more resources and energy than it gives back.

But if someone took all these isues into consideration, a beneficial recycling system could be created.

 

[Kollega]

and other lies you've been told to sway your thinking.

The amount of energy used to collect and recycle material is much greater than the amount used to create a product from scratch. We aren't running out of land either. If the US had a 30x30 mile landfill, 900 square miles, it would last for a long ass time. Possibly 1000 years. That's a rough calculation. As for metal, don't recycle it. Sell it.

What I'm asking you is for an example where you were told a lie to get you to do something. Something major that is, something that is popular.

Recycling may not save energy,but thanks to renewable sources and nuclear power,we have much more energy than raw materials. So energy is much more expendable than limited amount of metals or petroleum we have.

 

[riskroWe]

I was told that an invisible man would set me on fire for eternity if I ever stole or murdered or dealt drugs.
But I wasn't planning to do any of those things anyway, so the idea of arbitrary punishment didn't affect me much.

 

[Dys]

and other lies you've been told to sway your thinking.

The amount of energy used to collect and recycle material is much greater than the amount used to create a product from scratch. We aren't running out of land either. If the US had a 30x30 mile landfill, 900 square miles, it would last for a long ass time. Possibly 1000 years. That's a rough calculation. As for metal, don't recycle it. Sell it.

What I'm asking you is for an example where you were told a lie to get you to do something. Something major that is, something that is popular.

Recycling may not save energy,but thanks to renewable sources and nuclear power,we have much more energy than raw materials. So energy is much more expendable than limited amount of metals or petroleum we have.

We are so far from running out of petrolium it isn't even funny. The whole "oil is finite" thing is a scam so the oil companies can make a quick buck, we've not even started utalizing the Pacific or Antarctic reserves. There is plenty to go around.

Blanket statements about energy consumption and environmentalism are stupid regardless of which extreme they are taking. Recycling can use more energy than producing from scratch, that isn't a garuntee that it always will under all circumstance.....

Indeed.

The thing is that in order to do efficient recycling there's also a lot of issues regarding infrastructure and logistics that has to be taken into consideration. Something many countries have disegarded completely, which of course means that more often than not, recycling consumes more resources and energy than it gives back.

But if someone took all these isues into consideration, a beneficial recycling system could be created.

I'm fairly certain that (especially within industral manufactoring) there are no shortage of very efficient recycling programs, companies can save serious money if they do it right and I'd be very surprised if they didn't take advantage of it.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

Recycling isn't about saving energy, it's about converting resources used up for one purpose into a fresh use for another. Energy reduction is about saving energy. One does not equal the other.

And as to the landfill, why would you want trash just laying around for "possibly 1000 years"?

You do know trash decomposes, right? It wouldn't just be laying around.

Very slooooowly.

Not 1000 years sloooowly. Not even close.

Ever hear of glass? Shit doesn't decompose. Nor do ceramics, nor metals, and most plastics take years upon years to even begin, and even then, they don't decompose, they decay. Organic compounds, and their natural byproducts (mostly) are the things that decompose. But there are innumerable things that do not break down chemically at all in nature. Physical forces break parts of them apart, but to get them to decompose requires heavy, heavy chemical means.

 

[Kollega]

Recycling may not save energy,but thanks to renewable sources and nuclear power,we have much more energy than raw materials. So energy is much more expendable than limited amount of metals or petroleum we have.

We are so far from running out of petrolium it isn't even funny. The whole "oil is finite" thing is a scam so the oil companies can make a quick buck, we've not even started utalizing the Pacific or Antarctic reserves. There is plenty to go around.

We may have big oil reserves,but Mendeleev (the guy who made periodic table) said - rather than burn oil for energy,we may as well burn cash. And he said it in XIX century. Oil is too valuable to just burn it willy-nilly. So are all other resources. Even if we have entire planet,it does not mean we should treat it as expendable.

 

[MiodekPL]

Mining gold is much cheaper than - let's say - recycling golden parts from PC motherboards or fighter jet canopies. But mines will deplete in some time, and then we will have to use recycling to get hold of any resources.

 

[WhiteTiger225]

Thanks. I feel enlightened now. You have shown me the light. Changed my life. For the better. You made a difference. Saved the planet. Awesome show. Great job.

You really are psychotic aren't you? Anyway, you do realise if we do KEEP making landfills then eventually we will end a with every city being like detroit. Smelly and filled with guys on crack.

I'm not psychotic![small]:twitches:[/small]

To add to the discussion, we can't just keep dumping our shit wherever we damn well please, It doesn't exactly do wonders for the environment. Since we can't eject our trash into space, because it will create a giant asteroid that will one day come back and kill us all, the best solution is to recycle.

<3 Futurama

Also you do realize the enviroment itself has created numerous "Landfills". How do you think oil is made? Even plastic decomposes (Very slowly, but it does eventually) and glass decomposes aswell (Glass is actually gelatinous when classfied in science. Go look at a 100 year old house with it's original windows, the glass will have oozed downward over 100 or so years to a noticeable extent)

A lie people say... "Man made" items are not "Natural". YES THEY FUCKIN ARE! We are natural beings! We cannot make anything Non-nature because what we make is made from components of nature, we just have thousands of years to refine those methods. A bird house is a bird made structure, does that mean it's not natural? A beavers damm effects water flow, does that mean it's not natural AND disruptive to nature (Those enviroment hating bastards!) Bees create honey themselves... Does that mean honey is not natural? NOTHING we have on this world is made from materials not found on earth. Plastic is made in many ways, but all the materials to make plastic are organic or earthen based, or refined organic or earthen based products.

 

[WhiteTiger225]

Thanks. I feel enlightened now. You have shown me the light. Changed my life. For the better. You made a difference. Saved the planet. Awesome show. Great job.

You really are psychotic aren't you? Anyway, you do realise if we do KEEP making landfills then eventually we will end a with every city being like detroit. Smelly and filled with guys on crack.

I'm not psychotic![small]:twitches:[/small]

To add to the discussion, we can't just keep dumping our shit wherever we damn well please, It doesn't exactly do wonders for the environment. Since we can't eject our trash into space, because it will create a giant asteroid that will one day come back and kill us all, the best solution is to recycle.

<3 Futurama

Also you do realize the enviroment itself has created numerous "Landfills". How do you think oil is made? Even plastic decomposes (Very slowly, but it does eventually) and glass decomposes aswell (Glass is actually gelatinous when classfied in science. Go look at a 100 year old house with it's original windows, the glass will have oozed downward over 100 or so years to a noticeable extent)

A lie people say... "Man made" items are not "Natural". YES THEY FUCKIN ARE! We are natural beings! We cannot make anything Non-nature because what we make is made from components of nature, we just have thousands of years to refine those methods. A bird house is a bird made structure, does that mean it's not natural? A beavers damm effects water flow, does that mean it's not natural AND disruptive to nature (Those enviroment hating bastards!) Bees create honey themselves... Does that mean honey is not natural? NOTHING we have on this world is made from materials not found on earth. Plastic is made in many ways, but all the materials to make plastic are organic or earthen based, or refined organic or earthen based products.

Actually, you are incorrect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_element

[small]:does a funky dance:[/small]

You miss the metaphorical sense. Also, if you trace back the elements of those radioactive experiments.. The radiation emitters, the metal and parts that make them up, the raw materials that are given to make those parts, are from earth, meaning such things can exist on earth because otherwise the components of earth would not be able to be aligned ever in such a way to make such a molecule. Again, this comes down to the beaver making a dam. The beaver made the dam himself, does that mean it is not natural? That "Man Made" atom is man made, but it is still natural when you look at it, as it was made after a series of tool refinings, melding the earthen and organic products we have scavenged from the earth into creations, and using those creations to further refine such things... In the end, it is simply the product of advance tool refinement that you find in nature everywhere.

 

[Dys]

Recycling may not save energy,but thanks to renewable sources and nuclear power,we have much more energy than raw materials. So energy is much more expendable than limited amount of metals or petroleum we have.

We are so far from running out of petrolium it isn't even funny. The whole "oil is finite" thing is a scam so the oil companies can make a quick buck, we've not even started utalizing the Pacific or Antarctic reserves. There is plenty to go around.

We may have big oil reserves,but Mendeleev (the guy who made periodic table) said - rather than burn oil for energy,we may as well burn cash. And he said it in XIX century. Oil is too valuable to just burn it willy-nilly. So are all other resources. Even if we have entire planet,it does not mean we should treat it as expendable.

My point is that the human race will have killed itself long before the oil runs out (assuming we keep burning it at a rate consistant with what's being predicted) due to other factors. Even if we were to find we suddenly ran out, it wouldn't be the end of the world, the cost of electricity would rise sharply and standard petrol cars would become obsolete very quickly, but society as we know it would not end. We have not shortage of viable (in some cases already working) alternative sources of energy.

 

[MiodekPL]

Sorry man, but you failed at this time.
Honey for example isn't natural. Ok I can agree. But when discarded - honey will be decomposed bu bacteria. Plastic can't be decomposed, because it was made using very unnatural techniques, like high temperature, and high refinement, and therefore - can't be decomposed by natural means.

"Synthetic elements" are far too scarce, and are not used in mass scale, so they can be omitted while we talk about recycling.

 

[Low Key]

Recycling isn't about saving energy, it's about converting resources used up for one purpose into a fresh use for another. Energy reduction is about saving energy. One does not equal the other.

And as to the landfill, why would you want trash just laying around for "possibly 1000 years"?

You do know trash decomposes, right? It wouldn't just be laying around.

Very slooooowly.

Not 1000 years sloooowly. Not even close.

Ever hear of glass? Shit doesn't decompose. Nor do ceramics, nor metals, and most plastics take years upon years to even begin, and even then, they don't decompose, they decay. Organic compounds, and their natural byproducts (mostly) are the things that decompose. But there are innumerable things that do not break down chemically at all in nature. Physical forces break parts of them apart, but to get them to decompose requires heavy, heavy chemical means.

With exception of plastics, everything breaks down given enough time. EVERYTHING! But again, I'm not here to debate the issue. I already do my part with what I throw away. All I came in here to say is trash decomposes, but it seems thems fightin' words round these parts.

 

[DoomyMcDoom]

if we continue recycling and change the power sources we use, then we reduce the need for wastage of reusable materials quite noticeably thing is all the people spouting how recycling wastes energy seem to see energy as our most limited resource somehow... it isn't... if we were to build allot of geothermal plants include solar panels in the design of most if not all houses to increase efficiency and such. and recycle as much as we can we won't run out of the more limited resources on this planet... namedly all of the metals we leave rusing in landfills... and as far as selling metal... they recycle it... that's what recycling is... shifting resources and retooling them instead of leaving them to rot...

so yeah recycling is a good thing, using energy to reuse and preserve limited resources for use later is worth spending energy on... we should just make sure all our energy use like cars running on non petroleum fuels... and running all the compacting machinery and such off of a geothermal or solar power source, we could save ALLOT.

 

[WhiteTiger225]

Thanks. I feel enlightened now. You have shown me the light. Changed my life. For the better. You made a difference. Saved the planet. Awesome show. Great job.

You really are psychotic aren't you? Anyway, you do realise if we do KEEP making landfills then eventually we will end a with every city being like detroit. Smelly and filled with guys on crack.

I'm not psychotic![small]:twitches:[/small]

To add to the discussion, we can't just keep dumping our shit wherever we damn well please, It doesn't exactly do wonders for the environment. Since we can't eject our trash into space, because it will create a giant asteroid that will one day come back and kill us all, the best solution is to recycle.

<3 Futurama

Also you do realize the enviroment itself has created numerous "Landfills". How do you think oil is made? Even plastic decomposes (Very slowly, but it does eventually) and glass decomposes aswell (Glass is actually gelatinous when classfied in science. Go look at a 100 year old house with it's original windows, the glass will have oozed downward over 100 or so years to a noticeable extent)

A lie people say... "Man made" items are not "Natural". YES THEY FUCKIN ARE! We are natural beings! We cannot make anything Non-nature because what we make is made from components of nature, we just have thousands of years to refine those methods. A bird house is a bird made structure, does that mean it's not natural? A beavers damm effects water flow, does that mean it's not natural AND disruptive to nature (Those enviroment hating bastards!) Bees create honey themselves... Does that mean honey is not natural? NOTHING we have on this world is made from materials not found on earth. Plastic is made in many ways, but all the materials to make plastic are organic or earthen based, or refined organic or earthen based products.

Actually, you are incorrect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_element

[small]:does a funky dance:[/small]

You miss the metaphorical sense. Also, if you trace back the elements of those radioactive experiments.. The radiation emitters, the metal and parts that make them up, the raw materials that are given to make those parts, are from earth, meaning such things can exist on earth because otherwise the components of earth would not be able to be aligned ever in such a way to make such a molecule. Again, this comes down to the beaver making a dam. The beaver made the dam himself, does that mean it is not natural? That "Man Made" atom is man made, but it is still natural when you look at it, as it was made after a series of tool refinings, melding the earthen and organic products we have scavenged from the earth into creations, and using those creations to further refine such things... In the end, it is simply the product of advance tool refinement that you find in nature everywhere.

Not a metaphor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor
[sub]thanks wikipedia, I would give you a high five but you aren't a tangible entity.[/sub]

Synthetic elements do not exist in nature, therefore they are not natural. Bevar dams however, do exist in nature, so therefore they are natural.

Sorry man, but you failed at this time.
Honey for example isn't natural. Ok I can agree. But when discarded - honey will be decomposed bu bacteria. Plastic can't be decomposed, because it was made using very unnatural techniques, like high temperature, and high refinement, and therefore - can't be decomposed by natural means.

"Synthetic elements" are far too scarce, and are not used in mass scale, so they can be omitted while we talk about recycling.

Who failed? Also, no one pre-qualified that this argument was sans synthetic elements, and they must be disposed just as normal elements, and thus be included under the umbrella of things that must be disposed of and therefore are to be considered in an argument about the disposal of things, so I'm going to invalidate your statement and say synthetic elements are to be included in the realm of recycing.

Beaver damns exist in nature? Show me how many beaver dams have naturally occured WITHOUT intervention from a living orgasm forming one as a home.

 

[scrambledeggs]

lol thread fail

I (L) compost