Reinforcing Choice in RPGs with strict level caps

[Skratt]

Never really cared too much either way. I just hate it when you play a stealth specialist or non-combat specialist, the game reminds you everything is combat based (even if you aren't) as it hands you the past 22 hours of character progression back to you in a steaming pile of loading screen. So frustrating.

 

[badgersprite]

This is a problem in most RPG's, but the opposite is also a problem, where you have WoW or Diablo syndrome and after a few months everyone knows the best 'builds'. My problem with Dragon Age was that the Archer build sucked. If you took a rogue it would be almost stupid to not go dual wield backstab as that was by far the best build. It's tough to properly balance everything to give you several 'best' builds, which is ultimately what you want to give the user the most choice.

Huh, really? I find the archer build really pays off once you get the top tier skills like Arrow Of Slaying and Scattershot. Once I had those abilities, I felt like I was made, but the game punishes how overpowered archers are by making them suck in their early stages, having low accuracy and quite useless talents. Again, it's another case of forcing people to think, and really be willing to stick out their decisions, testing their willingness to make sacrifices and scrupulous choices in pursuit of a worthwhile character. Once you stick it out, though, you're dealing more damage than anyone else in the party.

 

[Kakashi on crack]

The recent escapist focus on choice made me think of this. You know when you're playing an RPG, you level up, and have to decide how to spend your newly acquired skill points? That's a fun decision.. should I invest more in my sword or my shield? Level up my fireball or unlock that cool lightning attack? These decisions make the game fun, and make the character yours. One reason why RPGs are great.

But sometimes, when you're playing the game, you'll keep levelling up, and you'll find that you'll eventually have enough points to get nearly every skill by the end. Personally, I don't like that. Eventually you max out all your character's skills, and then he's not a cool fireball specialist or something anymore: he's a master at everything. While that might sound cool for a moment, it means that everyone else who plays the game long enough will have the same exact character, and I think that's not as fun.

Do people agree with me or disagree? I'd rather max out my character and have a number of skills not maxed out, so his maxed skills are special, and the character is unique. When you can max a character out completely, it means the choices you made through the game about what to specialize were only temporary choices: sure, then you only had a fireball, but now you've got everything. I'd rather honor those choices.

Play DnD, you can't legally max out in version 3.0/3.5

 

[AlternatePFG]

This is a problem in most RPG's, but the opposite is also a problem, where you have WoW or Diablo syndrome and after a few months everyone knows the best 'builds'. My problem with Dragon Age was that the Archer build sucked. If you took a rogue it would be almost stupid to not go dual wield backstab as that was by far the best build. It's tough to properly balance everything to give you several 'best' builds, which is ultimately what you want to give the user the most choice.

Huh, really? I find the archer build really pays off once you get the top tier skills like Arrow Of Slaying and Scattershot. Once I had those abilities, I felt like I was made, but the game punishes how overpowered archers are by making them suck in their early stages, having low accuracy and quite useless talents. Again, it's another case of forcing people to think, and really be willing to stick out their decisions, testing their willingness to make sacrifices and scrupulous choices in pursuit of a worthwhile character. Once you stick it out, though, you're dealing more damage than anyone else in the party.

Yeah, on my first playthrough on hard I ran an archer and he was incredibly strong before Scattershot or Arrow of Slaying.

 

[Olrod]

I think the biggest problem with this is that there will only be a few certain "best" builds, which means everyone will end up being a cookie-cutout of one of those few builds anyway.

"lol u not maxed it? u gimp n00b lol"

Saying that, I really like RPGs that use skill-tree ability increases, such as Diablo 2 for example.

 

[ranger19]

Agreed. This is part of the reason I hated Oblivion and will most likely hate Skyrim. It was ridiculously easy to become a master of everything in Oblivion without even trying, as long as you tracked down most or all of the side-quests. This was because they cut down the size of the world and reduced the amount of available skills from Morrowind. In Skyrim they're cutting three more skills, and that's not very promising.

Bioware games at least don't have these design flaws. They give you a maximum level with little wiggle room, so that even if you do every side-quest and find every XP-granting thing in the games, you barely reach the maximum level by the finale, forcing you to pick and choose your character builds. Unlike another Bethesda game I know, Fallout 3, which has you reaching the maximum level halfway through the story and making you feel limited by poor design.

It's interesting that you bring Oblivion up, because it's probably the one game I've played tons of with no stopping you from maxing out everything in which I didn't notice that bothering me. (I can't remember - is there actually a level cap in Oblivion?) In that game I actually was so distracted by role playing my super awesome mage that I maxed out destruction, has awesome amounts of magicka, but barely any skill in heavy armor, blunt, etc. Part of that comes from the fact that you need to use those skills to level them up, it's not as transparent as "oh, I have more skill points and I've maxed out everything else, I suppose I'll add more to blunt objects for the heck of it". But good point.

I'm starting to understand the point of level caps.. and yes at least in the Mass Effects I liked your choices. In addition to the fact that at the start of your game you choose a class, so my infiltrator will never, for example, max out barrier or lift since he will never have access to those skills. (Well he could, I know, but only one of them at a time, so he could never max out every skill.)

 

[ReservoirAngel]

A level cap that hits when you are at a high enough level to EITHER have one or two skills maxed and absolutely lethal to the point of stupidity, or have a decent spread of everything, is better than one that hits the cap AFTER you can have every ability.

For that reason, I'm loving Dragon Age: Origins's levelling system. Playing as the Mage I currently am, I know that I won't be able to get all my spells maxed, so I need to specialise in one particular role. Which is good. If one character could do everything, your companions in that game would be absolutely worthless.

That said, Dragon Age does apparently get like 'I'm a walking death machine!' towards the end if you play ur skills right. Apparently, as a Mage, if you take Blood Magic and Arcane Warrior specialisations, you can wreck the collective shit of scores of enemies by yourself, only really relying on party members to hold their attention while you rain down death from afar.

I aint really played around too much with warrior (never intending to either) or rogue (done a bit with that briefly, gonna really try that out later) so I dunno how they fare in comparison in terms of making enemies your ***** later in the game.

 

[TPiddy]

Huh, really? I find the archer build really pays off once you get the top tier skills like Arrow Of Slaying and Scattershot. Once I had those abilities, I felt like I was made, but the game punishes how overpowered archers are by making them suck in their early stages, having low accuracy and quite useless talents. Again, it's another case of forcing people to think, and really be willing to stick out their decisions, testing their willingness to make sacrifices and scrupulous choices in pursuit of a worthwhile character. Once you stick it out, though, you're dealing more damage than anyone else in the party.

I did manage to make it all the way up and get Scattershot and Slaying, but overall it's a weak character. Up close you're pretty much screwed so you're constantly having to move around, and weak mid-level skills like pinning shot were just wasted points. Even when you're maxed out, an arrow of slaying will do wicked damage, but to only one target. The Awakenings expansion really beefed up the archer build though. Still, for rogue, dual-wield dagger with backstab yielded a higher DPS than any other character. Combine that with the ridiculous agility that meant you hardly ever got hit and it's the best character build in the game, let alone rogue.