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How about "Minecraft or Planescape Torment instead? you know, where choice REALLY matters? Hell, even The Witcher 2, IJI, Sacrifice and Deus Ex would be proper candidates to Mass Effect.
And i dont know about you, but Minecraft HAS a story..........apparently. One that basically tells you at the end "What is the answer to life, the universe, and Minecraft? any answer you want. Because all answers are possible" but is contradicted by the gameplay itself. As in, if ALL answers to are viable, then how come that i can ONLY kill the Enderdragon by fighting it? why cant i "win" against it by giving it tons of food? or making him a big fancy cave for it to live in? or trap it in with a well elaborated trap powered by redstone??
Maybe you should have choosen another game to pair with the Mass Effect example?
And i dont know about you, but Minecraft HAS a story..........apparently. One that basically tells you at the end "What is the answer to life, the universe, and Minecraft? any answer you want. Because all answers are possible" but is contradicted by the gameplay itself. As in, if ALL answers to are viable, then how come that i can ONLY kill the Enderdragon by fighting it? why cant i "win" against it by giving it tons of food? or making him a big fancy cave for it to live in? or trap it in with a well elaborated trap powered by redstone??
Maybe you should have choosen another game to pair with the Mass Effect example?
They're both good games but I do feel the better option is a combination of both.
Minecraft lacks context if you ask me, it's an empty world. You can shape and influence everything which can be amazing but at the same time there aren't any real consequences. Buildings rise, buildings fall, critters spawn, critters die but nothing irreversible happens.
Mass Effect has a lot of context, it's a world full of characters, stories and events. But it lacks in freedom. You're Commander Shepard and that's it. The amount of things you can influence are a very small number, they may be big galaxy-spanning things, but there aren't a lot of them. You're Shepard and you're going to stop the Reapers either the Paragon way, the Renegade way or somewhere in between and that's all there is to it.
Personally I'd give preference to something mixing those two things. Whilst they're definitely not there yet I feel the two major Bethesda franchises represent the potential well. Both the Elder Scrolls and Fallout present worlds that are filled with characters, stories and events but also the feeling of going anywhere and influencing everything. The execution has a long way to go, the writing could be a LOT better and your options in influencing things usually come down to rather meaningless binaries. But the potential and ideas are there.
If I had to choose from those two though I'd pick Mass Effect though. To me it's simply the more memorable experience.
Minecraft lacks context if you ask me, it's an empty world. You can shape and influence everything which can be amazing but at the same time there aren't any real consequences. Buildings rise, buildings fall, critters spawn, critters die but nothing irreversible happens.
Mass Effect has a lot of context, it's a world full of characters, stories and events. But it lacks in freedom. You're Commander Shepard and that's it. The amount of things you can influence are a very small number, they may be big galaxy-spanning things, but there aren't a lot of them. You're Shepard and you're going to stop the Reapers either the Paragon way, the Renegade way or somewhere in between and that's all there is to it.
Personally I'd give preference to something mixing those two things. Whilst they're definitely not there yet I feel the two major Bethesda franchises represent the potential well. Both the Elder Scrolls and Fallout present worlds that are filled with characters, stories and events but also the feeling of going anywhere and influencing everything. The execution has a long way to go, the writing could be a LOT better and your options in influencing things usually come down to rather meaningless binaries. But the potential and ideas are there.
If I had to choose from those two though I'd pick Mass Effect though. To me it's simply the more memorable experience.
I love both but personally I'd say Mass Effect. I prefer exploration and free choice to linear stories, but Minecraft ends once you find diamonds, especially if you aren't fond of building. There is no need to expand your home as there is nothing in there and there is no real reason to explore because on the land there are very few landmarks, only villages. Also Mass Effect has a better universe. If the question was Tekkit vs Mass Effect, I'd say Tekkit.
Now I say this as someone who loved the ME trilogy, but like a previous poster said, if I wanted choice, I wouldn't go to mass effect. I'd go to a visual novel, or planescape torment, Alpha Protocol, or Witcher 2. Interaction and choice strengthens the immersion and having consequences to that choice deepens the bond between you & your character (or teaches you about yourself if it's a blank slate). Mass Effect however fails greatly in this. All the choices are superficial. There is no real consequence. The consequences are incredibly myriad, and mostly come down to whether a character will cameo at some point in the future, give you an email, or which of two characters will fill an unchanging role.
The best moments of Mass Effect - Mordin Solus, Legion's mission, their roles in Mass Effect 3, talking with your favourite crew members, and shooting bottles with Garrus - none of these have any changing consequence in Mass Effect. Realistically, it doesn't matter which choice you picked for Legion's Mission in game - pick the obviously correct choices in Mass Effect 3 and which one you picked had no consequences. Mordin Solus is going to be same in Mass Effect 3 - unless you're a genuinely unpleasant person and chose that renegade choice. The best moments are either static, or are good to talk about with other people. Legion's choice is about discovering your view on the subject. But this has no bearing in the game. The only choice that has genuine consequence is what happens with Wrex on Vermire. That has consequence. The other virmire choice of course being a joke given it's a choice between the two weakest characters.
Ultimately, Mass Effect is not a stellar example of choice and consequence, it's an example of how to make interesting and likeable characters, though not necessarily deep. I'd play Mass Effect if I wanted to talk about emergency induction ports or reach vs flexibility. This holds true with every Bioware game. Especially since they have their morality system in most of their games, which is incredibly stupid because there aren't inherently good or bad actions. So yeah, PST, AP or W2 would be better, where I can see real consequence between my actions, and that gives them weight.
And if you want to go down the 'how choice, no matter how little consequence it has, shapes your character' route, again, Mass Effect falls short. This only has an effect on your character in Mass Effect 3, where they make an effort to actually help characterise Shepard. And then, it only happens occasionally. A better choice for this route would be Spec Ops: The Line, which does this, how choice affects you as a person far far better.
Also, comparing Minecraft and a choice-narrative game is a bit... pointless. I mean, you play them for different reasons. I don't think Skyrim and Witcher 2 are comparable for example, it's not about open choice vs narrative choice, it's exploration (and creation in minecraft's case) vs storyline.
The best moments of Mass Effect - Mordin Solus, Legion's mission, their roles in Mass Effect 3, talking with your favourite crew members, and shooting bottles with Garrus - none of these have any changing consequence in Mass Effect. Realistically, it doesn't matter which choice you picked for Legion's Mission in game - pick the obviously correct choices in Mass Effect 3 and which one you picked had no consequences. Mordin Solus is going to be same in Mass Effect 3 - unless you're a genuinely unpleasant person and chose that renegade choice. The best moments are either static, or are good to talk about with other people. Legion's choice is about discovering your view on the subject. But this has no bearing in the game. The only choice that has genuine consequence is what happens with Wrex on Vermire. That has consequence. The other virmire choice of course being a joke given it's a choice between the two weakest characters.
Ultimately, Mass Effect is not a stellar example of choice and consequence, it's an example of how to make interesting and likeable characters, though not necessarily deep. I'd play Mass Effect if I wanted to talk about emergency induction ports or reach vs flexibility. This holds true with every Bioware game. Especially since they have their morality system in most of their games, which is incredibly stupid because there aren't inherently good or bad actions. So yeah, PST, AP or W2 would be better, where I can see real consequence between my actions, and that gives them weight.
And if you want to go down the 'how choice, no matter how little consequence it has, shapes your character' route, again, Mass Effect falls short. This only has an effect on your character in Mass Effect 3, where they make an effort to actually help characterise Shepard. And then, it only happens occasionally. A better choice for this route would be Spec Ops: The Line, which does this, how choice affects you as a person far far better.
Also, comparing Minecraft and a choice-narrative game is a bit... pointless. I mean, you play them for different reasons. I don't think Skyrim and Witcher 2 are comparable for example, it's not about open choice vs narrative choice, it's exploration (and creation in minecraft's case) vs storyline.
Mass effect is pretty damn poor, choice-wise. A character died in a previous game? A replacement filling the exact same role will be put in instead, the only difference being some dialogue. You destroyed the collector base or not? Either way TES has the partially in-tact reaper in his base. The rachni queen was saved or not in ME1? Doesn't matter apart from some war effort points, as the reaper bred one replaces the real one. Died you let Ashley or Kaidan die? Doesn't matter as they're 100% interchangeable in every scene coming after that choice. And the list goes on, really.
The only REAL choice I can think of is actually a series of choices. Being able to save both the Geth and Quarians requires you to have picked certain choices in ME2 and 3, otherwise you simply can't save both.
The only REAL choice I can think of is actually a series of choices. Being able to save both the Geth and Quarians requires you to have picked certain choices in ME2 and 3, otherwise you simply can't save both.
I like open world for its replayability, but I love having a short sweet narrative. In Witcher 2 there is a choice you do in Act 1 which completely changes the story for 2 and 3. After the 2nd playthrough you have done almost everything worth doing. In the end I'll go with the indecisive "depends".
Mass Effect seems liek a really terrible game and boring as hell.
Minecraft I actually played it and it was actually fun when you try to slowly discover whats going on and you build your first home and start to mine for minerals and diamonds and go to the nether and then end and... Thats where it stops. The rest of the game is about you mindlessly building because of no apparent reason at all, there is NO real reason to keep playing unless you simply are in the mood to build random things because you said so. Boring, in my opinion.
But its 5-6 hours of fun I have in that game, compared to Mass Effect where I had fun for exactly 0 hours and 0 minutes, Minecraft beats it easily. Plus, if you are into that kind of thing, its really endless so long as your creativity is.
Minecraft I actually played it and it was actually fun when you try to slowly discover whats going on and you build your first home and start to mine for minerals and diamonds and go to the nether and then end and... Thats where it stops. The rest of the game is about you mindlessly building because of no apparent reason at all, there is NO real reason to keep playing unless you simply are in the mood to build random things because you said so. Boring, in my opinion.
But its 5-6 hours of fun I have in that game, compared to Mass Effect where I had fun for exactly 0 hours and 0 minutes, Minecraft beats it easily. Plus, if you are into that kind of thing, its really endless so long as your creativity is.
I have to cast my vote with Mass Effect, all the way. Yes, Minecraft will give you more freedom, but any choices you make won't carry the same emotional impact as the ones in Mass Effect.In the context of this post I'm including the entire ME trilogy, not just the first installement. If that is the case though, you might go with Minecraft just for replayability value.
You won't get emotionally invested in your pickaxe, but you will get invested in the characters and squadmates in Mass Effect.
You won't get emotionally invested in your pickaxe, but you will get invested in the characters and squadmates in Mass Effect.
Fun Fact: 1)I say Mass Effect as a whole, not Mass Effect 3 specifically the ending.DeadpanLunatic said:
2)If i didnt have something called "Schizoid personality disorder" i would probably feel this "irritation" you speak off.
3)I didnt play the series. I observed the ME3 fiasco to see what repercutions would it have in gaming as whole because of the so called "Gamer Entitlement that is destroying games as art for changing the ending and blah blah". Nevermind that Fallout 3 and Prince of Persia Reboot ALSO had their endings changed and no one complained (i guess Bethesda and Ubisoft dont count as artist)
. Most of the evidence at hand seems to indicate that the cracks in the story and gameplay started since ME2 (and the quality of the company conveniently diminished after being purchased by EA. As seen in other examples like DA2 and The Old Republic)
That video exist since 22 May 2010, so its not like people started bitching about ME AFTER the ending.
4)If this is a "planned trilogy" then why there are retcons EVERYWHERE? if they had it all planned out as they said, then all the choices would have reached a pay off eventually. Hell, even Armando Troisi, the lead cinematic designer of ME2, said this in his presentation "Get Your Game Out Of My Movie":
"As developers, we did not want to build two different games based on a single choice ? this could quickly get out of hand. One of the lessons we?ve learned over the years is not to branch your narrative too early because it becomes exponentially more expensive the longer you need to support it. The second game in the sequel adopted this practical sensibility. So instead of making giant branches in the ME2 narrative we concentrated on the little things that would make the game personal. A lot of little things. This kept scope under control while still fulfilling the agreement of it being your story.
You would think that it would have paid off in ME3 where your choices during all the series eventually reach a conclusion (hense the words of the developers "It would have 16 different endings".)
Nope.
But dont you find weird that a message that says: "Everything is valid because its YOUR story" gives only ONE solution? keep in mind that the ending was comisioned for the Full Release 1.0 of Minecraft, meaning that they looked at it and said "Yeah, this will work out" and leave it like that without further updates on that area.
Minecraft or Dwarf Fortress are fine examples, but i think that DF deserves more attention because people are too afraid of seeing ASCII all the time, or its just too complex to comprehend. People need a friendly hand when entering that world.
But there is something else i wanna ask you....why such extreme opposites? one has pure gameplay and no story (DF), and the other is pure story and almost no gameplay that reasembles a Point And Click Adventure (TWD).
Why not games that merge it very well and would be stronger arguments for games as art? like Planescape Torment or even a more recents examples like Dragon Age Origins and The Witcher 2?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation?from=Main.GameplayAndStoryIntegration
Because otherwise, people would STILL think that gameplay and story cant be close to one another without being ripped to shreeds. Some people, like this guy over here:
http://metagearsolid.org/2012/01/the-opposite-of-epic/
...believes that such disconect is even worse than it seems.
I used the Anvil to rename my pickaxe. I call it The Ophelia and i never go out mining without herMossberg Shotty said:
.And since i am supposed to be playing a person stuck in the middle of nowhere, i believe that calling innanimate objects with names seems to most logical thing to do to avoid becoming crazy...er.
Here's the thing: Mass Effect is not a good spring board for the topic you're talking about. If you want to ask for preference between emergent, sandbox gameplay and narrative driven "choose-your-own-adventure" style games then just do it, since the choice aspect is not really the only aspect in both games.
Mass Effect's choices are mostly just fluff the doesn't really effect gameplay. Nearly all of them felt cheaply nullified (not just the ending, seriously, "you just hate the ending" has become the default Mass Effect defense)and they only dealt an emotional impact when the context of the choice had to do with the characters, which Bioware is (for the most part) good at writing.
Minecraft is more about freeform choice, but it generally only comes into form after you get diamonds and get to work on building things. The choice has more to do with the creativity then actual gameplay. Admittedly, what makes minecraft so successful in that it does, infact, throw these gameplay decisions at you occasionally using randomly generated mobs and dungeons that you can accidentely stumble upon changing your plans.
Ultimately I would pick Minecraft as the better game and a better implementation of a choice based system, since it uses choice as a main mechanic and not just story fluff.
Mind you, if I actually wanted to play a game about choice I would go for The Walking Dead if I wanted contextualized choices, Dwarf Fortress if I wanted freedom to do what I want and Deus Ex if I wanted a combination of the two.
Mass Effect's choices are mostly just fluff the doesn't really effect gameplay. Nearly all of them felt cheaply nullified (not just the ending, seriously, "you just hate the ending" has become the default Mass Effect defense)and they only dealt an emotional impact when the context of the choice had to do with the characters, which Bioware is (for the most part) good at writing.
Minecraft is more about freeform choice, but it generally only comes into form after you get diamonds and get to work on building things. The choice has more to do with the creativity then actual gameplay. Admittedly, what makes minecraft so successful in that it does, infact, throw these gameplay decisions at you occasionally using randomly generated mobs and dungeons that you can accidentely stumble upon changing your plans.
Ultimately I would pick Minecraft as the better game and a better implementation of a choice based system, since it uses choice as a main mechanic and not just story fluff.
Mind you, if I actually wanted to play a game about choice I would go for The Walking Dead if I wanted contextualized choices, Dwarf Fortress if I wanted freedom to do what I want and Deus Ex if I wanted a combination of the two.
First, off topic ish, that choice was a bad one for a personal impact viewpoint. There's a significant chance that one of them is a SI, so that can make the choice for you. There's another very significant chance that you'll really dislike one of them, and so that makes the choice for you. Or you'll dislike both of them, so meet the choice with indifference, or whichever one Kirahe happened to be at. So it fails, for most people, at personal impact level. You'll have to significantly like both characters for that choice to matter for personal impact, and Bioware very obviously picked the least two likable characters. Even if you disliked one of the others more (I really dislike Tali, more so than either of those two), you can see that they are the weakest links very easily. Which is impressive given, at the stage of Mass Effect 1, pretty much every character was a "something in my life 101" (they develop of course much more later on). I say this, again, with Mass Effect 1 being one of my favourite games.DeadpanLunatic said:
Compare this to the Witcher 2, who put two very good characters as the choice. Witcher 2 had significant impact depending on which one you chose, the story I believe branching out depending on your choice. This, is a choice with consequences. On Mass Effect's side, those two became a swap in/swap out of a single role... that being a very vocal criticism of their role in Mass Effect 2. It doesn't realistically matter which you pick, because they soon go offscreen, and follow an identical progression, come back onscreen in Mass Effect 3 and continue this identical progression, until late Mass Effect 3, where one of them gets drunk and the other doesn't. This right here is not a meaningful choice. It doesn't matter whether or not I liked them. What mattered is that Bioware picked the two characters that it could use, which would have the most minimal impact to the trilogy. It just so happens that being less likeable follows on from that, since less critical characters tend to be less interesting or developed characters. Though for one of them that isn't the case, since they can be argued to be the only ME1 character who isn't "my life 101", but like I said, it wasn't about how likeable the characters were.
It was never about "I didn't like x or y so this choice doesn't matter" - it was "the writers didn't like x or y, and so they made this choice not matter". It had no consequences. Dragon Age 2 has plenty of choices that could result in personal impact for either you or your character, but it has no consequences.
TL;DR choosing Mass Effect as an example of personal impact choice is fine, because that's what it does and it does it fairly well. But as other people are constantly pointing out, it's a really awful example of narrative and consequence based choice.