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DioWallachia

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sanquin said:
The only REAL choice I can think of is actually a series of choices. Being able to save both the Geth and Quarians requires you to have picked certain choices in ME2 and 3, otherwise you simply can't save both.
You do realize that the Quarians were written as one dimencional in this game compared to the Geth? The Matrix VR machine made people symphatetic towards the Geth because we are shown that the Quarians were assholes for no logical reason. And if that wasnt stupid enough, they brough the whole fleet to fight the Geth ASAP and take their homeworld instead of just waiting.

Instead of being a moral dilemma, you end up in a black and white choice: "Do we spare the nice robots or spare the evil Qua-ROBOTS. Yes, spare the robots and kill the assholes"
 

Mossberg Shotty

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Phrozenflame500 said:
Here's the thing: Mass Effect is not a good spring board for the topic you're talking about. If you want to ask for preference between emergent, sandbox gameplay and narrative driven "choose-your-own-adventure" style games then just do it, since the choice aspect is not really the only aspect in both games.

Mass Effect's choices are mostly just fluff the doesn't really effect gameplay. Nearly all of them felt cheaply nullified (not just the ending, seriously, "you just hate the ending" has become the default Mass Effect defense)and they only dealt an emotional impact when the context of the choice had to do with the characters, which Bioware is (for the most part) good at writing.

Minecraft is more about freeform choice, but it generally only comes into form after you get diamonds and get to work on building things. The choice has more to do with the creativity then actual gameplay. Admittedly, what makes minecraft so successful in that it does, infact, throw these gameplay decisions at you occasionally using randomly generated mobs and dungeons that you can accidentely stumble upon changing your plans.

Ultimately I would pick Minecraft as the better game and a better implementation of a choice based system, since it uses choice as a main mechanic and not just story fluff.

Mind you, if I actually wanted to play a game about choice I would go for The Walking Dead if I wanted contextualized choices, Dwarf Fortress if I wanted freedom to do what I want and Deus Ex if I wanted a combination of the two.
Ah, you'll have to forgive me, the ways of the human heart are foreign to me. I should have said *I* can't get emotionally invested in my pickaxe.

But maybe I would if it didn't talk behind my back so much...
 

DioWallachia

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Phrozenflame500 said:
Minecraft is more about freeform choice, but it generally only comes into form after you get diamonds and get to work on building things. The choice has more to do with the creativity then actual gameplay. Admittedly, what makes minecraft so successful in that it does, infact, throw these gameplay decisions at you occasionally using randomly generated mobs and dungeons that you can accidentely stumble upon changing your plans.

Ultimately I would pick Minecraft as the better game and a better implementation of a choice based system, since it uses choice as a main mechanic and not just story fluff.
They dont need the diamonds FIRST to do anything, you can trade tools with the villagers that you find (or convert zombies into villagers to start your own village and trade goodies)

And if surviving is such a problem, then you got Creative Mode for infinite resourses and megalictic structures.
 

Souplex

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Mass Effect: A good series of RPGs with good story and gameplay, but an atrocious ending.
Minecraft: A bad art tool.
 

DioWallachia

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Souplex said:
Mass Effect: A good series of RPGs with good story and gameplay, but an atrocious ending.
Minecraft: A bad art tool.
And why would it be a "bad art tool"?
 

janjotat

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DeadpanLunatic said:
janjotat said:
I like open world for its replayability, but I love having a short sweet narrative. In Witcher 2 there is a choice you do in Act 1 which completely changes the story for 2 and 3. After the 2nd playthrough you have done almost everything worth doing. In the end I'll go with the indecisive "depends".
Indecisive sounds bad. Say rather that you enjoy the best of both worlds.
Most of the time I chose carefully, I meant indecisive. Given the choice between an open world and a tight narrative I am left without I clue about which one I should buy.
 

sanquin

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DioWallachia said:
You do realize that the Quarians were written as one dimencional in this game compared to the Geth? The Matrix VR machine made people symphatetic towards the Geth because we are shown that the Quarians were assholes for no logical reason. And if that wasnt stupid enough, they brough the whole fleet to fight the Geth ASAP and take their homeworld instead of just waiting.

Instead of being a moral dilemma, you end up in a black and white choice: "Do we spare the nice robots or spare the evil Qua-ROBOTS. Yes, spare the robots and kill the assholes"
Except it's not that easy. Us humans would probably do something very similar if it came down to it. Imagine our computers and cars suddenly showing signs of life. A lot of people would get scared of that and want to get rid of the 'alive' ones for fear of their own lives. And if humans had been fighting something for many, many years already but finally got the chance to get earth back they would have tried to wipe said 'enemy' out as well, no matter their peaceful intentions.

Yes the Quarians were in the wrong in that particular fight and way back when they decided to destroy the Geth that started showing signs of life, but it's not as black and white as you make it out to be.

Apart from that though, no matter how easy you thought the final choice was to make, it's still a -real- series of choices that you make that has -real- consequences in the final conflict between the Geth and Quarians.
 

Satan

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I like minecraft, because it's MY story MY quest to build the greatest caste, and in the story theres the time I battled on the side of a ravine for ore and heroically escaped a cave buy swimming through the roof into the ocean where I survved with what I had to get to my base. Many many more.
 

Zetatrain

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DioWallachia said:
sanquin said:
The only REAL choice I can think of is actually a series of choices. Being able to save both the Geth and Quarians requires you to have picked certain choices in ME2 and 3, otherwise you simply can't save both.
You do realize that the Quarians were written as one dimencional in this game compared to the Geth? The Matrix VR machine made people symphatetic towards the Geth because we are shown that the Quarians were assholes for no logical reason. And if that wasnt stupid enough, they brough the whole fleet to fight the Geth ASAP and take their homeworld instead of just waiting.

Instead of being a moral dilemma, you end up in a black and white choice: "Do we spare the nice robots or spare the evil Qua-ROBOTS. Yes, spare the robots and kill the assholes"
You do realize that the Quarians that tried to wipe out the Geth during the "Morning War" have been dead for hundreds of years. Seems unreasonable to hate people for the sins committed by their ancestors.

Also the fact that the Quarians don't have a planet to call home and that they are treated like outcasts by the rest of the galaxy makes them seem at the very least a little bit sympathetic, IMO.
 

Vern5

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As someone who has played both Minecraft and Mass Effect extensively, I find this comparison very interesting. I can't really think of two other games that are so completely opposed to each other.

In Mass Effect you are Commander Shepard and your task is to follow a strict script of events culminating in one of three endings. The game is very linear in design and the choices, though entertaining, are ultimately fluff (but fun fluff). Mass Effect is basically a wonderful looking, wonderfully narrated movie masquerading as a game by way of "shooty bits"

On the other hand you have Minecraft, which is made from boxes. There is no script for Minecraft. You are not required to do anything in any specific way in order to advance the plot. There is no plot besides the one you create for yourself. If anything, Minecraft has a plot that is created in hindsight whereas Mass Effect has a plot that has already been laid out and is just waiting for the player to walk through it.

If you were to choose between these two games, it would not be a choice that is contingent upon the quality of the games themselves. The choice would be based upon your personality. Do you like complete freedom and screwing around in an endless world of possiblity? Then Minecraft is for you, you freedom-loving wanderer. But perhaps you would enjoy a nice story to listen along to (disregarding the aformentioned "shooty bits")? Then Mass Effect would be more to your liking, you lover of narrative mixed with gaming.

Very intriguing choices...
 

DioWallachia

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sanquin said:
DioWallachia said:
You do realize that the Quarians were written as one dimencional in this game compared to the Geth? The Matrix VR machine made people symphatetic towards the Geth because we are shown that the Quarians were assholes for no logical reason. And if that wasnt stupid enough, they brough the whole fleet to fight the Geth ASAP and take their homeworld instead of just waiting.

Instead of being a moral dilemma, you end up in a black and white choice: "Do we spare the nice robots or spare the evil Qua-ROBOTS. Yes, spare the robots and kill the assholes"
Except it's not that easy. Us humans would probably do something very similar if it came down to it. Imagine our computers and cars suddenly showing signs of life. A lot of people would get scared of that and want to get rid of the 'alive' ones for fear of their own lives. And if humans had been fighting something for many, many years already but finally got the chance to get earth back they would have tried to wipe said 'enemy' out as well, no matter their peaceful intentions.

Yes the Quarians were in the wrong in that particular fight and way back when they decided to destroy the Geth that started showing signs of life, but it's not as black and white as you make it out to be.

Apart from that though, no matter how easy you thought the final choice was to make, it's still a -real- series of choices that you make that has -real- consequences in the final conflict between the Geth and Quarians.
Why would ANY human being in the future (i assume that sentient AI would come way later in the future) be STILL stupid enough as the people we have these days?:

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/study-89-percent-of-parents-believe-game-violence-a-problem-6402290

IF humans were stupid enough to take over Earth from the robots, even when its clear that there is a BIGGER threat just RIGHT THERE that will not spare the humans of their galactic genocide, i think that humans are better of extinct.

They didnt try to join forces nor they even try to manipulate the robots into dying first in the hands of the bigger threat and THEN finish of the big threat themselves now that they are weaker by fighting the robots.

Also, yes, there were Quarians in ME2 that wanted peace with the Geth...............can i ask where the fuck are they? dont tell me that they are in the same fleet that is fighting the Geth in a all out massacre? did their IQ dropped along with everyone else?

 

DioWallachia

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Zetatrain said:
DioWallachia said:
sanquin said:
The only REAL choice I can think of is actually a series of choices. Being able to save both the Geth and Quarians requires you to have picked certain choices in ME2 and 3, otherwise you simply can't save both.
You do realize that the Quarians were written as one dimencional in this game compared to the Geth? The Matrix VR machine made people symphatetic towards the Geth because we are shown that the Quarians were assholes for no logical reason. And if that wasnt stupid enough, they brough the whole fleet to fight the Geth ASAP and take their homeworld instead of just waiting.

Instead of being a moral dilemma, you end up in a black and white choice: "Do we spare the nice robots or spare the evil Qua-ROBOTS. Yes, spare the robots and kill the assholes"
You do realize that the Quarians that tried to wipe out the Geth during the "Morning War" have been dead for hundreds of years. Seems unreasonable to hate people for the sins committed by their ancestors.

Also the fact that the Quarians don't have a planet to call home and that they are treated like outcasts by the rest of the galaxy makes them seem at the very least a little bit sympathetic, IMO.
Remember that in ME3 they tried to kill YOU, Shepard, if you took too long on the Geth Dreadnought?? gee, what a nice way to thank me for saving their lives.

Desperation should NOT equal stupidity.
 

Assassin Xaero

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Minecraft, because it at least held my interest for a little bit (pre Beta 1.8 update). Mass Effect was too bland and boring to do that. But now, I'd almost rather sit and look at a wall for an hour than play either.
 

Zetatrain

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DioWallachia said:
Zetatrain said:
DioWallachia said:
sanquin said:
The only REAL choice I can think of is actually a series of choices. Being able to save both the Geth and Quarians requires you to have picked certain choices in ME2 and 3, otherwise you simply can't save both.
You do realize that the Quarians were written as one dimencional in this game compared to the Geth? The Matrix VR machine made people symphatetic towards the Geth because we are shown that the Quarians were assholes for no logical reason. And if that wasnt stupid enough, they brough the whole fleet to fight the Geth ASAP and take their homeworld instead of just waiting.

Instead of being a moral dilemma, you end up in a black and white choice: "Do we spare the nice robots or spare the evil Qua-ROBOTS. Yes, spare the robots and kill the assholes"
You do realize that the Quarians that tried to wipe out the Geth during the "Morning War" have been dead for hundreds of years. Seems unreasonable to hate people for the sins committed by their ancestors.

Also the fact that the Quarians don't have a planet to call home and that they are treated like outcasts by the rest of the galaxy makes them seem at the very least a little bit sympathetic, IMO.
Remember that in ME3 they tried to kill YOU, Shepard, if you took too long on the Geth Dreadnought?? gee, what a nice way to thank me for saving their lives.

Desperation should NOT equal stupidity.
While it did piss me off that that they tried to kill me it not as if they didn't have a shed of reason to. That dreadnought was tearing their fleet apart and they had a chance to take it out and they took it. They had no idea whether or not the shields could come back online at any moment. And seriously, desperation makes people do stupid things all the time.
 

Zetatrain

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DioWallachia said:
sanquin said:
DioWallachia said:
You do realize that the Quarians were written as one dimencional in this game compared to the Geth? The Matrix VR machine made people symphatetic towards the Geth because we are shown that the Quarians were assholes for no logical reason. And if that wasnt stupid enough, they brough the whole fleet to fight the Geth ASAP and take their homeworld instead of just waiting.

Instead of being a moral dilemma, you end up in a black and white choice: "Do we spare the nice robots or spare the evil Qua-ROBOTS. Yes, spare the robots and kill the assholes"
Except it's not that easy. Us humans would probably do something very similar if it came down to it. Imagine our computers and cars suddenly showing signs of life. A lot of people would get scared of that and want to get rid of the 'alive' ones for fear of their own lives. And if humans had been fighting something for many, many years already but finally got the chance to get earth back they would have tried to wipe said 'enemy' out as well, no matter their peaceful intentions.

Yes the Quarians were in the wrong in that particular fight and way back when they decided to destroy the Geth that started showing signs of life, but it's not as black and white as you make it out to be.

Apart from that though, no matter how easy you thought the final choice was to make, it's still a -real- series of choices that you make that has -real- consequences in the final conflict between the Geth and Quarians.
Why would ANY human being in the future (i assume that sentient AI would come way later in the future) be STILL stupid enough as the people we have these days?:

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/study-89-percent-of-parents-believe-game-violence-a-problem-6402290

IF humans were stupid enough to take over Earth from the robots, even when its clear that there is a BIGGER threat just RIGHT THERE that will not spare the humans of their galactic genocide, i think that humans are better of extinct.

They didnt try to join forces nor they even try to manipulate the robots into dying first in the hands of the bigger threat and THEN finish of the big threat themselves now that they are weaker by fighting the robots.

Also, yes, there were Quarians in ME2 that wanted peace with the Geth...............can i ask where the fuck are they? dont tell me that they are in the same fleet that is fighting the Geth in a all out massacre? did their IQ dropped along with everyone else?

What makes you think there wouldn't be any people as stupid as the ones we have today in the distant future?

Now there is no indication that the Quarians took Shepard's warning about the Reapers in ME2 seriously (much like the rest of the galaxy). Also even if they did they had no idea when the Reapers were going to arrive whether it was days, weeks, months, or years. Hell, even Shepard didn't know until the events of "Arrival" and he was incarcerated shortly after. Also, it seems that the Quarians attacked the Geth around the same time that the Reapers invaded. I should also point out that if it hadn't been for the dreadnought the Quarians could have easily won with little damage done to the fleet as a whole. So they would have still been in good condition to fight.

As for the Quarians that wanted peace, I can think of a few things that might have happened. They could have been threatened with exile if they didn't go along with the attack. Another possibility is that they realized that the rest of the fleet was going to go to war with or without them and that many quarians would die without the entire fleet. Whatever the reason, I take it that the Quarians who wanted peace with the geth weren't exactly pleased with going to war considering that the Admiral Zaal'Koris doesn't miss a chance to criticize Admiral Han'Gerrel for the attack.
 

DioWallachia

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Aaaand the light went out in the worst moment possible, nice. I will try to keep it short and i will start by saying that you have my vote on doing The Walking Dead (as you suggested) instead of Mass Effect.

Now, lets resume the masochist tango once again, shall we?

DeadpanLunatic said:
Well it's the one part that now usually gets the "choices don't matter" complaint (as in, not at all) and arguably the only part where it can be applied with good reason.
arguably? ME2 makes the "difficult" choice we had with The Council on ME1 pointless in the grand scale of things, and it goes downhill from there (if the fact that the pointless death and inmediate resurrection of Shepard didnt tip you off on the opening). How can a series that presents itself with "choices have meaning and weight" end up doing absolutely nothing meaningful

3)I didnt play the series. I observed the ME3 fiasco to see what repercutions would it have in gaming as whole because of the so called "Gamer Entitlement that is destroying games as art for changing the ending and blah blah". Nevermind that Fallout 3 and Prince of Persia Reboot ALSO had their endings changed and no one complained (i guess Bethesda and Ubisoft dont count as artist)
You say this as if it's a point in favor of your perspective. Also, unrelated, unrelated.
Unrelated? you mention that "fans" are "irritated" with the ending, and i go ahead to mention that one doesnt NEED to be a fan nor be emotional invested on the work to know that something is very wrong with the series. In the same way that i dont need to be a chef to tell another that their food is pure poison.

How is it not related?

3) evidence
Like the fact that people were bitching about it before as if there's not always somebody who does? Or that the company has been bought? Or that Dragon Age 2 and The Old Republic have been objectively proven to be worse? And still, unrelated.
And dont you find weird that a company that was once the vanguard of good storytelling in games since 2000, has now become a tyrant that needs to lie in every turn of a page? whose failures are so abysmal that people make entire channels to point them out? We are witnesssing a fall from grace in their quality writting that the fans have to assume that IT WAS ALL A DREAM to understand the ending they saw.

Now, i know that they are NOT the only people working hard on making good stories (Obsidian comes to mind) and there exist already games that had the Save Import that affects the plot, so its not like Bioware made something completely innovative:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OldSaveBonus

4)If this is a "planned trilogy" then why there are retcons EVERYWHERE?
Keep in mind that virtually any new intellectual property these days is "planned as a trilogy". Hell, my super secret novel idea is intended to cover three books. That doesn't mean those will ever see the light of day. That's why you see so many games with vague, open endings, just in case it turns out to be a financial success and the publisher decides to let the developers make another one. Doesn't happen that often.

So while it's good not to give this some thought and not write yourself entirely into a corner, it would be ludicrous to plot out all three hypothetical games in detail instead of pouring all your energy into the one you're definitely going to make, that will determine if you get to make those others, too. That's how the business works sometimes. Not ideal, but one should keep the circumstances in mind when analyzing its internal consistency.
Good point, but there is a problem: Why would Bioware lie to begin with?

This isnt some unknown company that NEEDS to lie all the time in order to bait potential fans into their products, nor is a "Used Cars Salesman" that tries their best to sell us something that may explode as soon we ignite the motors. This is Bioware, they ALREADY made their reputation out of well writting plots and games, if they say that they have a "planned trilogy" people would have believe them because we know they are profesional enough to pull it off........but didnt happen. Why scrap the botton of the barrel with such action?

And if you think about it, even if one CANT pull the planned trilogy ahead of time, then what was stoppping the other writers from continuing what was left on ME1? they had everything in place to expand the overarching plot and didnt, ME3 had to do what ME2 didnt care to in the first place.

You would think that it would have paid off in ME3 where your choices during all the series eventually reach a conclusion (hense the words of the developers "It would have 16 different endings".)

Nope.
Are you saying that Mass Effect 3 should have concluded all the choices in the series but didn't in an effort to show that this is not about the ending? Cause it's not helping.
No, why would you think i said that? i am saying that they said that they would ONLY make the 3rd game to have a branching narrative feature because otherwise it would have been a nightmare to code, and yet that didnt happen either. All we have is the "select your favorite colour" endings followed by total galactic annihilation because of the Relays exploding (apparently the writers just forgot that solar systems are destroyed when a Relays are destroyed as shown on the Canon "Arrival DLC")
 

sanquin

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DioWallachia said:
Remember that in ME3 they tried to kill YOU, Shepard, if you took too long on the Geth Dreadnought?? gee, what a nice way to thank me for saving their lives.

Desperation should NOT equal stupidity.
Think about it: How many aliens have been 'casualties' in Shepard's name? Did Shepard try his/her all to save them? No, he/she just saw them as casualties of the war. Likewise, the Quarians saw Shepard as just an alien. An outsider. A casualty of their war with the Geth. They put their own race before a few aliens on the Geth ship. (Shepard's party) And Shepard and heck all humans were exactly the same. They put Earth before all other planets and races. The 'final battle' -had- to be fought at Earth, why? Why couldn't they pick a more quiet area to group up and make their stance? Why not an area that they could better defend, rather than a planet that was already mostly taken over by the Reapers? Face it, the humans were just as egocentric as the Quarians in ME3, if not more so.