Removed

[Sonofadiddly]

Love the Dune reference in the title of this article.

Yes! Somebody who doesn't hate me for that at least.

That, too. Pretty much any time anyone asks me to show them evidence of sexism in gaming, or in the world at large, I present them with the following:

Spoiler: Here's where the sexism is.

Right around this area.

On the issue of "a few isolated instances" there's also this interesting if incomplete timeline of 2012. [http://gbitk.net/ii/]

Ohmygodohmygodohmygod SAVED. THANK YOU.

Nothing makes me happier than when someone expedites the process of having the same debate over and over and over.

 

[Sonofadiddly]

Quick question.

If you've seen the same kind of article written on sexist stuff in video games a million times, isn't that pretty strong evidence for rampant sexism?

I love how people are constantly complaining that people are constantly complaining about sexism in video games, like every time there's a sexist thing they have to complain about it, it's all the time, geez, so annoying.

And then each time they make the argument that this single instance isn't evidence for rampant sexism. If something problematic pops up in the industry that frequently, I'm pretty sure we can call the problem "rampant."

Yeah, because if a lot of people complain about something, that must necessarily means that it's correct, yes?

Oh wait, no, it does not. Just because many people believe it, doesn't mean that it's correct.

I can turn that right back around on you.

Just because many people DON'T believe it, doesn't mean that it isn't true.

But don't try to act as though each instance of sexism exists in a vacuum. This WoW douchebag is just another of thousands upon thousands of douchebags saying that geek girls aren't real, women don't belong in the gaming industry, that girls should make sandwiches hurr hurr hurr, etc.

I suggest the documentary Killing Us Softly. Quite an eye opener about how women are presented in media. It's hard to notice these things when they don't affect you, but when they do, they're quite a bit easier to catch AND remember.

 

[Candidus]

Shrine, eh? Asshole.

I found the footnote article on "camwhores" an interesting read. It recalled for me ST_Aphrodite's SCII twitch stream. I watched her play terran for several days (I go from player to player to player over weeks). Her stream chat, like the stream chats of most women, was unbearable in all of the ways covered in that article and more.

But a woman doesn't even have to be on camera for a stream's chat to descend into a mess. Having any of the few girls I know in ventrilo with me while streaming creates big hassle for my moderators... and I'm only watched by 30 people on average.

Blegh.

I won't deny that I treat women differently than I do men online. They're women. I'm interested in women. When they're around, I'm more aware of their presence in vent than I am the presence of my other friends. I answer their Steam chat windows first. I share keys and spare games with them first, and so on and so on. I can't help it (No really, I can't). This holds true even if she or they aren't attractive to me.

Further, if a woman has a really nice voice, I can't stay in ventrilo for long, or I can't watch her stream for too long. I get distracted, and I don't even mean by lewd thoughts. It just gets to a point where I'd rather listen to her speak than pay attention to or play the game.

I don't feel to blame for any of this. Nobody is to blame, it's biology. I don't even think it's a problem. It's inconvenient, but so is sneezing and I don't call that a 'problem'.

But it's my responsibility to handle it without discomforting or demeaning anyone, and it does become a problem if I'm getting mad and blaming women for their bodies when they appear on camera, their voices when they're sitting in vent or just for being known at all when they're "out" as women in the same virtual spaces.

Personally, when a sweet voice has become too much in vent or anything similar, I give up with a resigned grin, make my excuses and close the window or program. For men who are subject to strong compulsions that can't be disciplined down, I'd like to think this is the best response.

For people like Shrine, who seem to feel threatened by compulsions they can't resist and want to blame someone other than themselves for their powerlessness, it seems the standard response is to accuse the offending woman of witchcraft and have her burnt at the-- oops. Wrong era. But the same sort of man.

edit: I'm really tired. As in, really really tired. When I proof-read this post, I couldn't even remember the lines as I read them. Maybe it's coherent, maybe it's a bunch of unrelated paragraphs. All I know for sure is... I'm going to bed. I'll delete this tomorrow if it was all crap.

 

[Sonofadiddly]

I can turn that right back around on you.

Just because many people DON'T believe it, doesn't mean that it isn't true.

But don't try to act as though each instance of sexism exists in a vacuum. This WoW douchebag is just another of thousands upon thousands of douchebags saying that geek girls aren't real, women don't belong in the gaming industry, that girls should make sandwiches hurr hurr hurr, etc.

I suggest the documentary Killing Us Softly. Quite an eye opener about how women are presented in media. It's hard to notice these things when they don't affect you, but when they do, they're quite a bit easier to catch AND remember.

I haven't claimed sexism doesn't exist, I do claim that it's not "rampant" and that most of these so-called controversies are for the most part fucking ridiculous and stupid and if full with people being oversensitive and/or jumping to conclusion.

Most critisism people laud aagaints these sexist" things are often very, very debatle, or outright wrong. And when people use an sensesionalist airhead like Anita Sarkeesian to be their front, yeah, their arguments are a lot weaker then what themselves believe.

That's a whole lot of opinion from someone who is not really affected by sexism.

Privilege. You may need to consider checking it.

 

[Sonofadiddly]

That's a whole lot of opinion from someone who is not really affected by sexism.

Privilege. You may need to consider checking it.

I do have opinions about USA:s war in Iraq, even more so, but that war has not affected me in the slightest.

Your point being?

You can have opinions about the war. You can have opinions about sexism. But you don't tell a soldier that his PTSD is just whining and you don't tell a woman that her feelings about sexist media are wrong. Do you have any idea what each piece of sexist media combined into a massive culture of sexism does to women? Are you completely clueless to how the constant dehumanizing of women gives men leave to harass, assault, and rape women? So yeah, I get pretty freaking upset when a guy like this calls all female gamers attention whores, and I'll thank you not to tell me that I'm being oversensitive. Who the hell are you to tell anyone how they should feel?

And I will continue to not tell racial minorities how to feel about racism, being a whitey. Because it's the least I can do.

 

[Sonofadiddly]

A difference between having a PTSD and feeling that the whole media and culture is sexist, yes? One is a medical condition the other is an opinion.

Most people (that i have seen, mind you, I'm not omnipotent) that have tried to argue that games indeed are teh sexist have failed to do so in a convincing manner and failed to make me share their opinions.

And I don't tell people how they should feel, but when someone makes a claim that i disagree with, I certainly try to argue against it, and why I'm don't agree with it, that's the beautiful nature of opinions, everyone has them, and everyone of them are different. Also, you act like this is a universal truth and I'm just being an asshole troll whose goal in life is to mkae people suffer, truth is, that's not really the case. Someone had said something that i don't agree with, so I explain why I disagree, quite simple.

Furthermore, calling other people clueless because they don't agree with you, well, that's just not very good for anyone. Besides, I do think that you're really overdramatisising the issue in order to finally make me either shut up or agree with you because you want to stop arguing, and I agree, it's getting late, so maybe we can just agree that we disagree?

I don't agree to that.

You completely miss the point. Telling someone with PTSD their disorder isn't a big deal is akin to telling women that sexism in media isn't a big deal. It comes from the same arrogance and the same ignorance that creates people who believe that they can somehow magically understand something that they've never experienced. If you've never had PTSD, you don't know what it's like. If you've never been a woman, you don't know what it's like.

And it's clear to me that you have no interest in even trying to understand what with your dismissive attitude evident in your calling a widespread problem "teh sexism." You're not convinced because you don't want to be. You have no open mind about the issue. So no wonder no one's changed it. If you'd done any research on the issue it would have shown by now, but you haven't, which makes you without a clue as to what you're talking about.

And yes, you absolutely do tell people how they should feel. You just did. Like four times.

"Over-dramatizing." "Oversensitive." "Jumping to conclusions." "Most of these so-called controversies are for the most part fucking ridiculous and stupid."

So basically, I shouldn't be so sensitive. In other words, I shouldn't feel so much. I shouldn't jump to conclusions, meaning I shouldn't feel that something is sexist. I'm being too dramatic, in other words expressing my feelings. And I should feel that these controversies are ridiculous and stupid.

Oh gee, I never realized. Of course, since YOU say that my perception of sexism in media is ridiculous and stupid, it must be! Not that you've presented any evidence to support that, just called Sarkeesian names and told me that I'm an idiot for how I feel. Not that I'm not used to it. Because people say sexist crap like that all the time to me. You want evidence of sexism in the gaming community? Mirror time.

Once again. You need to check your privilege.

 

[Sonofadiddly]

Sorry if I annoyed anyone by being angry about being told not to be so sensitive about the systematic oppression of my gender.

Of course, I'm not sorry.

Also, now SOMEONE doesn't get to see this!

Spoiler

 

[SonicWaffle]

A number of socially awkward men thought they could escape women in the virtual world and are finding their isolationism less effective. There will be complaining and idiocracy.

It's a viewpoint I genuinely do not understand. I am a socially awkward man. Part of this is a lack of any skill when meeting/approaching/talking to women. The fact that in the virtual world I tend to escape into contains woman who clearly enjoy the same things as I do can only be a bonus.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Quick question.

If you've seen the same kind of article written on sexist stuff in video games a million times, isn't that pretty strong evidence for rampant sexism?

Not really. This is the internet - I've seen countless articles written on how the Jews are conspiratorial space monsters, feminists are evil witches who want to reduce men to a slave-state, and how Skyfall is the best James Bond movie yet.

A lot of words being expended on a claim in no way suggests any inherent value of that claim. While I'm completely in agreement with you that the video game industry has a problem with the way it depicts women and treats female customers, the simple fact that lots of people are saying it doesn't really constitute proof.

 

[Sonofadiddly]

Quick question.

If you've seen the same kind of article written on sexist stuff in video games a million times, isn't that pretty strong evidence for rampant sexism?

Not really. This is the internet - I've seen countless articles written on how the Jews are conspiratorial space monsters, feminists are evil witches who want to reduce men to a slave-state, and how Skyfall is the best James Bond movie yet.

A lot of words being expended on a claim in no way suggests any inherent value of that claim. While I'm completely in agreement with you that the video game industry has a problem with the way it depicts women and treats female customers, the simple fact that lots of people are saying it doesn't really constitute proof.

That is a good point. The argument is flawed.

It would be better to state that if many prominent or at least intelligent feminists think there's a problem with it, as well as women in general, there's probably an issue.

 

[SonicWaffle]

Quick question.

If you've seen the same kind of article written on sexist stuff in video games a million times, isn't that pretty strong evidence for rampant sexism?

Not really. This is the internet - I've seen countless articles written on how the Jews are conspiratorial space monsters, feminists are evil witches who want to reduce men to a slave-state, and how Skyfall is the best James Bond movie yet.

A lot of words being expended on a claim in no way suggests any inherent value of that claim. While I'm completely in agreement with you that the video game industry has a problem with the way it depicts women and treats female customers, the simple fact that lots of people are saying it doesn't really constitute proof.

That is a good point. The argument is flawed.

It would be better to state that if many prominent or at least intelligent feminists think there's a problem with it, as well as women in general, there's probably an issue.

Intelligent feminists? Pshaw! Next you'll be telling me that horses can do calculus! The very idea is patently absurd.

My own rampant sexism aside, your re-phrasing serves the purpose much better, but will unfortunately still fall flat to the people you're trying to convince. If the obvious reality of anti-female sentiment amongst some parts of the gaming community has failed to convince someone that there is a problem, I very much doubt saying "well, lots of feminists think there is!" is going to blow any minds. You might even be called a feminazi!

Which might be nice, because at least you get a spiffy uniform.

 

[Sonofadiddly]

Quick question.

If you've seen the same kind of article written on sexist stuff in video games a million times, isn't that pretty strong evidence for rampant sexism?

Not really. This is the internet - I've seen countless articles written on how the Jews are conspiratorial space monsters, feminists are evil witches who want to reduce men to a slave-state, and how Skyfall is the best James Bond movie yet.

A lot of words being expended on a claim in no way suggests any inherent value of that claim. While I'm completely in agreement with you that the video game industry has a problem with the way it depicts women and treats female customers, the simple fact that lots of people are saying it doesn't really constitute proof.

That is a good point. The argument is flawed.

It would be better to state that if many prominent or at least intelligent feminists think there's a problem with it, as well as women in general, there's probably an issue.

Intelligent feminists? Pshaw! Next you'll be telling me that horses can do calculus! The very idea is patently absurd.

My own rampant sexism aside, your re-phrasing serves the purpose much better, but will unfortunately still fall flat to the people you're trying to convince. If the obvious reality of anti-female sentiment amongst some parts of the gaming community has failed to convince someone that there is a problem, I very much doubt saying "well, lots of feminists think there is!" is going to blow any minds. You might even be called a feminazi!

Which might be nice, because at least you get a spiffy uniform.

Meh, I couldn't care less about what that particular section of the community thinks of my arguments. If "hey maybe listen to what minority groups have to say about their own oppression" doesn't make you go "well ok" then there's no hope for you anyway.

I do look good in Nazi brown, though.

 

[DeadpanLunatic]

If "hey maybe listen to what minority groups have to say about their own oppression" doesn't make you go "well ok" then there's no hope for you anyway.

But jeez, haven't you heard that bad stuff happens to men too? That's basically the exact same thing right?

On the subject of this community not having a sexism problem, it occurs to me that I have yet to link to Fat, Ugly or Slutty [http://fatuglyorslutty.com/] here.

Also this [http://www.gameranx.com/features/id/13300/article/comments-aren-t-disabled-here-s-what-people-are-saying-about-tropes-vs-women/].

 

[Sonofadiddly]

If "hey maybe listen to what minority groups have to say about their own oppression" doesn't make you go "well ok" then there's no hope for you anyway.

But jeez, haven't you heard that bad stuff happens to men too? That's basically the exact same thing right?

On the subject of this community not having a sexism problem, it occurs to me that I have yet to link to Fat, Ugly or Slutty [http://fatuglyorslutty.com/] here.

Also this [http://www.gameranx.com/features/id/13300/article/comments-aren-t-disabled-here-s-what-people-are-saying-about-tropes-vs-women/].

Well of course. We all know about the long terrible history of the horrible treatment of men. Men being sold to women as husbands, being forced to stay at home and raise the kids while the woman works, and the constant efforts by women to outlaw male enhancement and erectile dysfunction drugs.

Seriously, though, I'll file those links away under "Things to Read If I Want to Convince Myself to Commit Suicide."

 

[DeadpanLunatic]

I have removed my words from this site.