Representation: it doesn't need to have a "point"

[Brennan]

Well, if we're just comparing lists, off the top of my head I've got Resident Evil (like, all of them)...

I've only played RE4, but in that I distinctly remember 1) Leon tentatively trying to chat up his female handler a couple times (can't remember her name), and 2) massive overt foe-yay between Leon and Ada Wong, with occasional references to a previous relationship between the two.

 

[wulf3n]

like I said...I'm hesitant to give a free pass just because its Yahtzee...if it meant what I think it meant in context it didn't really fit nor was it funny

I don't think the "it's Yahtzee" thing is about giving him a free pass, but rather that his whole bit is about insulting people and crudeness. If a persons not into that sort of thing that's fine, it just that all to often people are fine with insult comedy... until it insults them or someone they know, then it's awful.

On a side note I found the ZP [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/5-Tomb-Raider-Anniversary] video the statement was from.

 

[mecegirl]

You know, I'm unaware of any famous alien, elf, or vampire authors, yet people seem to have no problem coming up with hundreds of sci-fi, fantasy, and horror novels every year. Well, George R. R. Martin MIGHT be a dragon. I've never met him. But still... I suppose you could come back with "Well, aliens, elves and vampires don't really exist, but black, asian, and hispanic people do!" And I suppose you have me there.

If only there was some convenient way you could access tons of information from the comfort of your chair...

To be fair, it's exceptionally rare for any of those aliens, elves, vampires, or whatever other characters to think or behave differently than humans. The perspective of such characters is, largely, the same as the author, because it takes a special kind of person to be able to properly convey a mindset, perspective and/or worldview that's alien to their own.

I'm not saying it's impossible (it's most definitely not), but, by Sturgeon's Law, 90% of such characters will fail to be anything but 'normal people', for whatever value the author has of 'normal', with some cosmetic changes.

The same holds true for properly representing the experiences and perspective of someone of a different race. As an upper-middle class white male, for example, I'll never be able to understand the kind of hardship or discrimination a poor black woman has to deal with. I have an intellectual understanding of it, but I lack the emotional understanding that is required to form a complete perspective. As such, I'd probably write a poor black woman very poorly, as I'm just not tuned to understanding why some things that seem so trivial to me would be difficult for her.

But do you have the ability to listen and the patience to learn? Most writers write about someone who isn't like them in some way, and thus they have to do research in order to get it right. They also have to practice their writing skills in order to properly convey what they have learned. The rest is up to human empathy and imagination.

Do you think George R.R. Martin knows what it's like to be a king? Or a mother? How about knight or a cold blooded murderer? His books are full of characters that are not like him in some way and yet he's managed to create some unforgettable characters.

It seems to me that with elves and aliens one never has to worry about being criticized. But a writer can't escape criticism when they write about humans different than themselves. And that human can either be another race, or even have a different profession, but some members of that group are bound notice when details are wrong.

However, modern writers have plenty of resources at their fingertips. They can read an entire backlog of books written by and about whatever demographic that they want to include into their stories. They can even reach individuals from that demographic via the internet in order to get first hand accounts about their experiences. So the hard part is empathy and imagination.

 

[Agayek]

But do you have the ability to listen and the patience to learn? Most writers write about someone who isn't like them in some way, and thus they have to do research in order to get it right. They also have to practice their writing skills in order to properly convey what they have learned. The rest is up to human empathy and imagination.

Do you think George R.R. Martin knows what it's like to be a king? Or a mother? How about knight or a cold blooded murderer? His books are full of characters that are not like him in some way and yet he's managed to create some unforgettable characters.

It seems to me that with elves and aliens one never has to worry about being criticized. But a writer can't escape criticism when they write about humans different than themselves. And that human can either be another race, or even have a different profession, but some members of that group are bound notice when details are wrong.

However, modern writers have plenty of resources at their fingertips. They can read an entire backlog of books written by and about whatever demographic that they want to include into their stories. They can even reach individuals from that demographic via the internet in order to get first hand accounts about their experiences. So the hard part is empathy and imagination.

Hence why I said "I'm not saying it's impossible (it's most definitely not)".

The problem is that when people try, Sturgeon's Law comes into effect. If you're unfamiliar with it, Sturgeon's Law is derived from an American sci-fi author and critic and basically goes "90% of everything is crap". This generally then doesn't end well for the work or the author.

 

[mecegirl]

But do you have the ability to listen and the patience to learn? Most writers write about someone who isn't like them in some way, and thus they have to do research in order to get it right. They also have to practice their writing skills in order to properly convey what they have learned. The rest is up to human empathy and imagination.

Do you think George R.R. Martin knows what it's like to be a king? Or a mother? How about knight or a cold blooded murderer? His books are full of characters that are not like him in some way and yet he's managed to create some unforgettable characters.

It seems to me that with elves and aliens one never has to worry about being criticized. But a writer can't escape criticism when they write about humans different than themselves. And that human can either be another race, or even have a different profession, but some members of that group are bound notice when details are wrong.

However, modern writers have plenty of resources at their fingertips. They can read an entire backlog of books written by and about whatever demographic that they want to include into their stories. They can even reach individuals from that demographic via the internet in order to get first hand accounts about their experiences. So the hard part is empathy and imagination.

Hence why I said "I'm not saying it's impossible (it's most definitely not)".

The problem is that when people try, Sturgeon's Law comes into effect. If you're unfamiliar with it, Sturgeon's Law is derived from an American sci-fi author and critic and basically goes "90% of everything is crap". This generally then doesn't end well for the work or the author.

Failure happens to all of us. Especially for those who are in a creative profession. We never get to see the numerous failures that well renown authors go through because lucky for them they have editors. But fear of failure an the criticism that comes with it won't make any creative type better in their field. They may as well quit and make room for someone with more drive an imagination.

Then again I went to an art college. Dealing with critiques was a weekly thing. So I just can't imagine how any creative type wouldn't be somewhat used to the cycle of failure and success. Because the moment that you show your work to another person that cycle begins.

 

[DC_78]

Is it really?

Well, my first thoughts go to Call of Duty, Grand Theft Auto 5 (IV, for that matter), Gears of War (The first three at the very least), Mario, Prototype, Katos, Nathan Drake, the Duke, Borderlands, Double Dragon, Assassin's Creed, Tomb Raider....Off the top of my head. And I skipped anything that ties into other media (comic book games, for example) because that makes it too easy. It's not hard to find examples, and I doubt the "vast majority" claim is even remotely true unless you basically include every rudimentary tic-tac-toe game made by a student.

So is it really? Well, the claim was it's pretty common. There's a pretty good case to be made for that.

I am sorry but... really!? After all it is rather silly and proves how much of game characterization is only made up of stuff we only think we know.

I dunno. Women seem to write quite a few male characters outside of mediums where it's focused mainly on women. And even in stories where the male character is female there's a healthy number of male secondary characters.

Yeah the Twilight books did such a great job with its male characters. Romance novels too. They're the best. Oh lets not forget Fifty Shades of Gray.[sarcasm] People write what they know, think ,and feel not what is politically correct, and designing something to be inoffensive is dumb. It is a sure path to homogeneity and mediocrity.

For instance one of my personal favorite books is Shadow's Daughter by Shirley Meier. It tells the story of a young woman in a fantasy world growing up, and has incredibly horrible things happen to her over the story. From the death of her parents, to abuse by her aunt while she lives with her, to eventually being sold into slavery, raped by her owner and giving birth to a child that is then sold out from under her by the owner. Yet at the end of this book she is stronger, scared by her experiences to be sure, but her writing made the protagonist into an incredible person and made for a moving story. Yet I doubt some folks could even get past the first three chapters now without someone saying they're offended.

 

[Thorn14]

A character shouldn't be defined by their sexuality if you ask me.

See: Arcade and Veronica from Fallout New Vegas. Both of them gay but its not how their character is defined.

Its simply a part of who they are in a much larger perspective of their whole character.

 

[Agayek]

Failure happens to all of us. Especially for those who are in a creative profession. We never get to see the numerous failures that well renown authors go through because lucky for them they have editors. But fear of failure an the criticism that comes with it won't make any creative type better in their field. They may as well quit and make room for someone with more drive an imagination.

Then again I went to an art college. Dealing with critiques was a weekly thing. So I just can't imagine how any creative type wouldn't be somewhat used to the cycle of failure and success. Because the moment that you show your work to another person that cycle begins.

I'm not an artist, so /shrug. I can't speak for any of that portion. I was just countering the assertion that the existence of aliens, elves, vampires, et al is undeniable proof that writers are easily able to write something they're not familiar with.

 

[Vault101]

A character shouldn't be defined by their sexuality if you ask me.

See: Arcade and Veronica from Fallout New Vegas. Both of them gay but its not how their character is defined.

Its simply a part of who they are in a much larger perspective of their whole character.

perhaps its not a question of a character being "defined" by their sexuality...but the relevance at that given time

if you did a "fallout 3" with Veronica (ergo show her growing up in the brotherhood) then her sexuality would come up at a certain point since as we understand it was a point of contention between her and her parents


or Sam from Gone Home....she likes to write, she likes vdieogames, she is by most accounts a normal girl, but weve got her at an age where her sexuality (and discovery thereof) IS a big deal due to her age and her environment and the coiety she's in

now if we skipped ahead many years to her...saaaaay...being a free spirited wannbe author in new York her sexuality might take a side position (I mean that might involve finding love too or checking out the gay scene)

 

[Thorn14]

A character shouldn't be defined by their sexuality if you ask me.

See: Arcade and Veronica from Fallout New Vegas. Both of them gay but its not how their character is defined.

Its simply a part of who they are in a much larger perspective of their whole character.

perhaps its not a question of a character being "defined" by their sexuality...but the relevance at that given time

if you did a "fallout 3" with Veronica (ergo show her growing up in the brotherhood) then her sexuality would come up at a certain point since as we understand it was a point of contention between her and her parents


or Sam from Gone Home....she likes to write, she likes vdieogames, she is by most accounts a normal girl, but weve got her at an age where her sexuality (and discovery thereof) IS a big deal due to her age and her environment and the coiety she's in

now if we skipped ahead many years to her...saaaaay...being a free spirited wannbe author in new York her sexuality might take a side position (I mean that might involve finding love too or checking out the gay scene)

If people want to make a game about discovering sexuality I don't really care. I didn't like Gone Home because it was an over priced walking simulator that earned far too much praise if you ask me, not because of its message IMO.

I just don't think making a character gay suddenly makes a game "better". But I'm an ancient dinosaur at the ripe age of 24 who places gameplay first so what do I know.

 

[Vault101]

For instance one of my personal favorite books is Shadow's Daughter by Shirley Meier. It tells the story of a young woman in a fantasy world growing up, and has incredibly horrible things happen to her over the story. From the death of her parents, to abuse by her aunt while she lives with her, to eventually being sold into slavery, raped by her owner and giving birth to a child that is then sold out from under her by the owner. Yet at the end of this book she is stronger, scared by her experiences to be sure, but her writing made the protagonist into an incredible person and made for a moving story. Yet I doubt some folks could even get past the first three chapters now without someone saying they're offended.

there's a difference between being offended and throwing up your hands and saying "this is too heavy for me" Game Of Thrones takes place in a harsh world (particually harsh for women) but as I understand it has good female characters who take the harshness in stride...now I haven't read or watched it FOR those reasons but I'm not "offended" per se (though the TV show got criticsm for making things more "rapey" than they were in the book, and I think that's a fair call)

if those dark topics are handled as well as you say they are then that sounds like it could be a good story,I'm not sure its something I could stomach because its a reality I don't want to be reminded of...but again I'm not going to be offended unless I feel those kinds of themes/events are severely mishandled

all that said I see nothing wrong with being critical of thease things, even when we do take in context

[b/]the important thing is that they are treated as people[/b] if GOT and that only had women as faceless things to be raped/enslaved as a way to "show" how dark the world is...yeah I might be a bit offended

 

[Vault101]

I just don't think making a character gay suddenly makes a game "better". But I'm an ancient dinosaur at the ripe age of 24 who places gameplay first so what do I know.

I never said it did

I was just pointing out what it means when a character is defined by their sexuality

 

[Thorn14]

I just don't think making a character gay suddenly makes a game "better". But I'm an ancient dinosaur at the ripe age of 24 who places gameplay first so what do I know.

I never said it did

I was just pointing out what it means when a character is defined by their sexuality

Fair enough, got a point there. Of course a character will be defined by their sexuality if the core of the story is exploring said sexuality.

Though the amount of games that do this you could count on one foot.

 

[DC_78]

If people want to make a game about discovering sexuality I don't really care. I didn't like Gone Home because it was an over priced walking simulator that earned far too much praise if you ask me, not because of its message IMO.

I just don't think making a character gay suddenly makes a game "better". But I'm an ancient dinosaur at the ripe age of 24 who places gameplay first so what do I know.

I agree Gone Home for all it's praise was rather meh. Honestly I would rather play a game, or read a book, than "interact" with a piece of social commentary. It reminds me of those terrible educational video games like Leapfrog that my children hated so much. The concept is sound behind them, but the execution is just horrid.

A compelling character can draw me into a story, and so far the artistic games have yet to grab me more than even an early Final Fantasy on the NES. Good luck to them, but just not my thing.

 

[mecegirl]

Failure happens to all of us. Especially for those who are in a creative profession. We never get to see the numerous failures that well renown authors go through because lucky for them they have editors. But fear of failure an the criticism that comes with it won't make any creative type better in their field. They may as well quit and make room for someone with more drive an imagination.

Then again I went to an art college. Dealing with critiques was a weekly thing. So I just can't imagine how any creative type wouldn't be somewhat used to the cycle of failure and success. Because the moment that you show your work to another person that cycle begins.

I'm not an artist, so /shrug. I can't speak for any of that portion. I was just countering the assertion that the existence of aliens, elves, vampires, et al is undeniable proof that writers are easily able to write something they're not familiar with.

Did anyone ever say that it was supposed to be easy? If anything its just odd because a writer is more likely to have something in common with another human than some creature.

 

[Phasmal]

If you're talking about Yahtzee's review- it's pretty likely he did mean it as lesbian, because that's all carpet muncher means here (Britain). Besides, he was just being Yahtzee
.

*siiiiiiigggghhhhh* really?

because if he did it that way then...that's kinda homophobic and mysoganistic...and no I don't care the [I/]oh its Yahtzee you know what he's like![/I] that said it

maybe I'm being overly sensitive...

Well, if you watch the review again the way he said it when he was talking about how they changed Lara from being flirty to being a cold action girl. To me it sounds like he's being sarcastic.

Perhaps I'm being under-sensitive, but being rude is kind of his thing and it never bothered me. Kind of how I'm not really fussed about anything in Saints Row.

 

[carnex]

Where most of great female characters in games come from? In my experience, Japan.
Where most of worst female characters in games come from? In my experience, Japan.

No mention of I dunno Chels (portal), Alyx Vance (Half Life). Never mind the fact that in Western Games... they tend to stress Player CHoice. I.e You have the CHoice of playing a female character... you aren't locked into one.

People always seem to forget that where the player is given the choice to be or not be is a much bolder statement for the developers.

While I don't agree with you that Alyx Vance is a good character (well I could argue that she isn't character at all but rather developers construct for boosting players ego through unashamed admiration and idolization) that was not the point. Japanese developers have incomparably richer history of female characters, especially mains, in their games. And I stand by the fact that not fearing public scrutiny and backlash and also not really caring about gender issues has to do a lot with it.

BTW, Kate Archer trumps both of them easily, so do many other western heroines

They don't have cultural baggage and don't care about historical one. They don't have "No True Scotsman" mentality (there will always be a group that is lout about character being inappropriate) I think there is an important lesson to learn there.

Uhm You talking about the Same Japan that exists in this world because really they have a whole lot of cultural hang ups. You do know for example FF3 and FF5 were initially met with outrage in Japan because of the whole Job Changing mechanic. Hopping Jobs is a biiig cultural No-No in Japan.

Heck ha;lf the reason characters in MAnga, Anime and video games do the things they do because they allow the consumer to live vicariously through the characters. CHaracters that do and say the things they dare not do or say themselves.

Oh, cultural baggage of Japan is beyond my comprehension, i tried dabbling in that and had to give up after few years of free time digging. Felt like I didn't make a scratch.

It's just that they don't have it about genders. Far from it that I thing things are ideal for women there (actually I do think they are worse in many aspects while being much better in others), but cultural perception is vastly different and freedom to discuss and represent females in any capacity author wants is incomparable to the western "standard".

People always tell me to be more clear on first attempt. This is perfect case to prove that I still fail on that front.

 

[Erttheking]

Is it really?

Well, my first thoughts go to Call of Duty, Grand Theft Auto 5 (IV, for that matter), Gears of War (The first three at the very least), Mario, Prototype, Katos, Nathan Drake, the Duke, Borderlands, Double Dragon, Assassin's Creed, Tomb Raider....Off the top of my head. And I skipped anything that ties into other media (comic book games, for example) because that makes it too easy. It's not hard to find examples, and I doubt the "vast majority" claim is even remotely true unless you basically include every rudimentary tic-tac-toe game made by a student.

So is it really? Well, the claim was it's pretty common. There's a pretty good case to be made for that.

I am sorry but... really!? After all it is rather silly and proves how much of game characterization is only made up of stuff we only think we know.

I dunno. Women seem to write quite a few male characters outside of mediums where it's focused mainly on women. And even in stories where the male character is female there's a healthy number of male secondary characters.

Yeah the Twilight books did such a great job with its male characters. Romance novels too. They're the best. Oh lets not forget Fifty Shades of Gray.[sarcasm] People write what they know, think ,and feel not what is politically correct, and designing something to be inoffensive is dumb. It is a sure path to homogeneity and mediocrity.

For instance one of my personal favorite books is Shadow's Daughter by Shirley Meier. It tells the story of a young woman in a fantasy world growing up, and has incredibly horrible things happen to her over the story. From the death of her parents, to abuse by her aunt while she lives with her, to eventually being sold into slavery, raped by her owner and giving birth to a child that is then sold out from under her by the owner. Yet at the end of this book she is stronger, scared by her experiences to be sure, but her writing made the protagonist into an incredible person and made for a moving story. Yet I doubt some folks could even get past the first three chapters now without someone saying they're offended.

Yeah, because poorly written, sexist and domestic abuse romanticizing romance novels are the sole definition of what women write. And I'll say it again. If you're a writer that stays permanently in your comfort zone, you are at best a mediocre writer. People aren't crying out for material to be neutered. They don't want bland inoffensive garbage. They want works were women actually have main roles in stories and aren't just arm candy or murder/rape victims for another character to get mad about.

If anyone was to say that, they'd be a twat. It wouldn't be sexist because it would be showing the harsh cruelty of a character's life and how it affected her. Granted I might pass on reading it, but only because I didn't have the stomach for it.

 

[rgrekejin]

Well, if we're just comparing lists, off the top of my head I've got Resident Evil (like, all of them)...

I've only played RE4, but in that I distinctly remember 1) Leon tentatively trying to chat up his female handler a couple times (can't remember her name), and 2) massive overt foe-yay between Leon and Ada Wong, with occasional references to a previous relationship between the two.

You know, I suppose you're right. I still stand by the inclusion of the series in general, though. Especially entries like 0, 5, and Revelations, which all feature male and female characters who work extensively without developing romantic relationships.