Revisiting The Last of Us

[Netrigan]

Still, not a bad game and was captivated by the character of Ellie, who really should have been the protagonist. They tried their best with Joel, but after a really strong opening he just fails to be terribly interesting. Worth playing.

I'm the opposite.

I like Ellie well enough, but she ultimately felt too pandering. Pandering as in 'we know you don't like kid characters, so here's one who's just "one of the guys"'. She doesn't feel written as a kid, as opposed to Sam who just felt a bit more kid-like. She was also just kind of a mary sue.

Joel on the otherhand actually had an arc as well as an extremely natural performance.

Ish still beats both of them, despite just being a bunch of notes.

I'm repeatedly on-record with my hatred of the term Mary Sue. In a world where James Bond, Captain Kirk, and Doctor Who exist, there's really not much call in criticizing a female character for being pretty damn competent. You need a character who is irritatingly, plot-breakingly over-competent at everything... and, damn, I just described The Doctor, who is still awesome

But I thought they did a pretty good job of capturing that in-between stage. Still a bit of a kid, starting to be an adult, and cursing as much as they can get away with. She would have fit right in with the kids in Stand By Me. Tough and insecure.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It's a good game that is suddenly receiving a lot more flak than it probably should, but that tends to be what happens when a game gets drowned in ebullient praise by its supporters. Expectations get hyped, and a backlash occurs.

Why do I think it's a good game? I think it's a good story (for gaming) that is well told (for gaming), and I think it has some strong characters (for gaming) that are unusually well realized (for gaming). I also think some of the environmental art was lovely (I adore post-apocalyptic settings) and the music was excellent. As it is a story/character focused game, the fact it succeeded in those areas means it should be viewed as an overall success.

Where do I think it falls down? Like Bioshock Infinite, it's co-conspirator in the father/daughter dystopian sweepstakes, it's really a bit ass in the game-play arena. The shooting mechanics are fiddly and muddy, the "AI" over-relies on triggers and cheats, the areas are remarkably claustrophobic and linear (always a disappointment for me in a game like this), the survival mechanics are woefully under-realized, and the game suffers from the same ludo-narrative dissonance that plagues many of its fellows. Moreso than almost any other game I've played to completion, I found The Last of Us actively ANNOYING to play. My "Fuck this piece of shit game I'm done with this" episodes per hour were FRIGHTFULLY high for a game that I didn't immediately abandon. It is a testament to the strength of its other elements that I actually stuck with it to the end.

You're free to think that way but you're not going to convince me that I didn't love this game.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but you aren't going to convince me to change my mind.

Inflexibility of opinion isn't a badge of honor you nerds =P

But yeah, OP wasn't terribly constructive.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I'm repeatedly on-record with my hatred of the term Mary Sue. In a world where James Bond, Captain Kirk, and Doctor Who exist, there's really not much call in criticizing a female character for being pretty damn competent. You need a character who is irritatingly, plot-breakingly over-competent at everything... and, damn, I just described The Doctor, who is still awesome

But I thought they did a pretty good job of capturing that in-between stage. Still a bit of a kid, starting to be an adult, and cursing as much as they can get away with. She would have fit right in with the kids in Stand By Me. Tough and insecure.

I use Mary-Sue as a genderless term, as I find "Marty Stu" to be needless. Everyone knows what you mean by Mary Sue. If I call The Doctor a Mary Sue, everyone knows what I mean.

I also don't think it really applies to Ellie. She's unusually competent for her age, but she inhabits an unusual world. And she can't really be blasted for having the same protagonist armor as Joel.

 

[Evonisia]

Well I suppose this beats starting a new iteration of the "Well I've played The Last of Us now" thread for October.

As for the game, well I don't see it as this big shining beacon of literal amazement that many do but it's easily the only good game of the big three of 2013 (BioShock Infinite can suck it and GTA V shouldn't have been so painfully average). It was fine but had some major issues like the friendly AI's invisibility cloaks and the really predictable story and gameplay. I did enjoy myself a bunch with it, though, so I'll give it that.

I also don't see how it's just Uncharted shooting (which itself was Gears 1's shittier cousin and insert whatever other TPS that Gears ripped off but did better). It was just boiler plate shooting and wasn't shit like Uncharted had. It also had the lie about ammo being scarce when it's not, you just can't hold much of it.

Edit: I also didn't like the intro much. This isn't a problem The Last of Us has on it's own. How could it when it's not even trying to be original? But I always call bullshit when survivors don't try to stop the Zombies. I don't fucking care that you've never seen one before, nobody will refuse to resist a Zombie trying to tackle or kill them. Most of the survivors just lie down and don't even fidget much beyond moving their hands, nor do they ever try engaging the Zombies in fights.

 

[MirenBainesUSMC]

Hmmm...

I guess I didn't pay attention to any of the quirkiness of the supply, Joel's backpack, nor whether or not the sneak feature was either good or not --- I simply played naturally and let the narrative draw its course. Why would anyone bother to pay attention to such trivial matters when you had such destruction around you and the story you could draw from abandoned shelters, left notes from people whom probably died, heart breaking survivor messages and the end of their survival. ( like the sewer system). Messed up houses and otherwise sprawling neighborhoods gone dark. Fairly depressing. And then ND had the wherewithal to know when to stop the action in order for the player to take it all in --- like that one scene with Ellie and the *ahem*. Good break.

I suppose the problem for me with the last of us wasn't the game play at all but the cliche bad guys and certain elements in the game of which mirror the events of the Walking Dead. To put it simply, there's too many Zombie creations to draw from so its not really all that original aside from the spores part. Cliches with characters. Every " bad guy" was always either dressed in a 80's looking denim outfit, hoodie, or wearing a skull cap and some sort of generic winter clothing. It was almost as if the bad guys just have to be hillbillies from the sticks because they all act the same. Its bad to deal with clickers and Zombies but you had more problems with humans... oh where did we hear that one from!.

Really good beginning! It captured the chaos and madness in the early days of their version of Apocalypse and it was a good dramatic execution for a game based story, very rare to find in the industry....however...once again the ending not so well executed though I do like the thought and debate it creates.

Its not a 5 star game as some gushingly showered it with but it isn't a one star game either. Its a strong contender in anyone's library and ND did a fairly good job to present to you a fulfilling ride compared to most games. No re-playability though. I mean once you done it its broken down to the game play. Break it down to raw game play without the suspense of not knowing the story is the only thing that motivates you but afterwards? Ehh --- back on the shelf. I wouldn't bother with re-mastered games I've already played. Of course its just going to be upgraded graphics, I don't expect these game companies to do anything more than they have to these days judging the quality that is out there.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I'm repeatedly on-record with my hatred of the term Mary Sue. In a world where James Bond, Captain Kirk, and Doctor Who exist, there's really not much call in criticizing a female character for being pretty damn competent. You need a character who is irritatingly, plot-breakingly over-competent at everything... and, damn, I just described The Doctor, who is still awesome

But I thought they did a pretty good job of capturing that in-between stage. Still a bit of a kid, starting to be an adult, and cursing as much as they can get away with. She would have fit right in with the kids in Stand By Me. Tough and insecure.

Well, it's not so much the physical compentency as it is the personality. She's feels a bit too courageous and a bit too... right, if that makes any sense. I would've liked to see her screw up and misjudge situations more often.

Even at times when she sort of screws up it still feels like it's getting played to show what a kind-hearted person she is, like when they come across the ambush set-up with the guy playing wounded and she asks 'Are we gonna help him?', or at the dam when she takes the horse and runs away.

There's only one time I feel they really show that she's just a kid who doesn't know everything, and that's with her relation to Sam who has an obvious crush on her that she isn't aware of. One of the best moments in the whole game for me was that little dialoge where Sam asks Ellie her age, and his response to it is 'Oh yeah, uhm... me too'. Because he's at that age that when a girl you like is 2 years older you have no shot at all.

 

[Netrigan]

I hit the Negative Gong pretty hard, but it's a gang that will likely stick with me because when it's good, it's really, really, really good.

But there's a whole lot of forgettable in between those moments.

 

[Netrigan]

I'm repeatedly on-record with my hatred of the term Mary Sue. In a world where James Bond, Captain Kirk, and Doctor Who exist, there's really not much call in criticizing a female character for being pretty damn competent. You need a character who is irritatingly, plot-breakingly over-competent at everything... and, damn, I just described The Doctor, who is still awesome

But I thought they did a pretty good job of capturing that in-between stage. Still a bit of a kid, starting to be an adult, and cursing as much as they can get away with. She would have fit right in with the kids in Stand By Me. Tough and insecure.

Well, it's not so much the physical compentency as it is the personality. She's feels a bit too courageous and a bit too... right, if that makes any sense. I would've liked to see her screw up and misjudge situations more often.

Even at times when she sort of screws up it still feels like it's getting played to show what a kind-hearted person she is, like when they come across the ambush set-up with the guy playing wounded and she asks 'Are we gonna help him?', or at the dam when she takes the horse and runs away.

There's only one time I feel they really show that she's just a kid who doesn't know everything, and that's with her relation to Sam who has an obvious crush on her that she isn't aware of. One of the best moments in the whole game for me was that little dialoge where Sam asks Ellie her age, and his response to it is 'Oh yeah, uhm... me too'. Because he's at that age that when a girl you like is 2 years older you have no shot at all.

If she were the protagonist, I think they would have hit the Screw Up button a bit more as it adds drama. The problem is she's a side-kick and that gets really annoying really quickly. The last thing you want is that character who is always going "what's this?" and setting off some kind of trap.

It's irritating enough when my character is the one who runs afoul of every cut-scene trap known to man, but if I had to stop what I was doing to go rescue her every ten minutes I'd be wanting to get rid of her as much as Joel does.

Actually, that's something which kind of bugs me about the game. A bit of a dissonance with how Joel treats Ellie as opposed to how the game clearly wants us to feel about Ellie. Again, another reason why I think the roles should have been flipped (at least putting us in Ellie's shoes quite often). She kind of likes him even though he's a bit of a dick, and I think that's how I would have thought of Joel if I was playing as Ellie. As Joel, I want to smack my character upside the head for being such a dick. I know he has the big important arc and all, but it's not my arc if you know what I'm saying.

 

[Netrigan]

I often hear complaints about the stealth in this game, but then my question is 'What games do have proper stealth?' Because nearly every game with stealth I've played sufferes from A.I. that just forgets you after a while. Realistc stealth (or anything) makes for an unplayable game.

I would define "proper stealth" as being able to successfully by-pass the fight more often than not.

Granted, I'm much more of a Kill Them All, starting with the easily picked off ones... but this game doesn't quite have the ammo to make that satisfying. I just hated that moment, fairly early in the game, where I sneaked past a Clicker and a bunch of Runners only to figure out that I could't advance in the level until I had killed them all. At which point it became, Shoot Clicker In Head & Bash Everyone's Brain's In... a tactic which I would repeatedly use instead of using the stealth system.

Here it seemed like the game really wanted me to do use the stealth elements, but a shotgun to the face was often faster and easier. I ended up playing it like I do Far Cry 3 or Assassin's Creed... and it didn't have the satisfying combat mechanics for that to truly satisfy. I wanted to go more stealthy and avoid killing as much as possible, but the game wasn't coded that way.

 

[EmperorZinyak]

I thought that the gunplay was fine. It was supposed to make you get into the "every bullet counts" mentality where you cant just play it like Uncharted. I usually kill everyone I see in games, but I found myself several times avoiding combat, which is pretty amazing. Even in stealth games I like picking off everyone I come across, but here I found myself sneaking by almost everyone. My only problem with the game is that it does feel a bit "trial and error" with the incredibly generous checkpoints. Maybe if they were a little more sparse it would encourage more people to play smarter.

 

[Casual Shinji]

If she were the protagonist, I think they would have hit the Screw Up button a bit more as it adds drama. The problem is she's a side-kick and that gets really annoying really quickly. The last thing you want is that character who is always going "what's this?" and setting off some kind of trap.

It's irritating enough when my character is the one who runs afoul of every cut-scene trap known to man, but if I had to stop what I was doing to go rescue her every ten minutes I'd be wanting to get rid of her as much as Joel does.

I know, but I think that's an issue with most developers these days that put an A.I. partner in their game; They want to have their cake and eat it. They want a partner for story purposes, but don't ever want them to intrude on the gamer's playtime.

Actually, that's something which kind of bugs me about the game. A bit of a dissonance with how Joel treats Ellie as opposed to how the game clearly wants us to feel about Ellie. Again, another reason why I think the roles should have been flipped (at least putting us in Ellie's shoes quite often). She kind of likes him even though he's a bit of a dick, and I think that's how I would have thought of Joel if I was playing as Ellie. As Joel, I want to smack my character upside the head for being such a dick. I know he has the big important arc and all, but it's not my arc if you know what I'm saying.

I actually really, really liked the relationship progression between Joel and Ellie. One reason was that I just didn't really like Ellie initially, due to the media glamorizing her so much before the game even came out. I was kind of sick of hearing about her. She's also a little smartmouth which I loath. This put me in the same mindset as Joel who wanted nothing to do with this kid either.

The other reason is that the game handles the growth between them extremely well. The first person to actually bond with Ellie is Tess, during which Joel has hardly any dialoge interaction with Ellie at all. Then after Tess is gone he's stuck with her and stirred up too much shit to return to the quarantine zone. Their encounter with Bill though causes them to drift together a bit due to Bill being an isolated crazy man. Then when they meet Henry and Sam they slowly become this little family unit. And when we get to the moment in the sewers where they get split up and Joel as stuck with Sam for a while, you can tell his time with Ellie has changed him as he is very supportive of him throughout.

You're right in that the game obviously wants you to like her right off the bat and presents Joel as this curmudgeon, but for me this worked out perfectly

 

[Casual Shinji]

I would define "proper stealth" as being able to successfully by-pass the fight more often than not.

Granted, I'm much more of a Kill Them All, starting with the easily picked off ones... but this game doesn't quite have the ammo to make that satisfying. I just hated that moment, fairly early in the game, where I sneaked past a Clicker and a bunch of Runners only to figure out that I could't advance in the level until I had killed them all. At which point it became, Shoot Clicker In Head & Bash Everyone's Brain's In... a tactic which I would repeatedly use instead of using the stealth system.

You mean the part right after you get the revolver, where you have to go down alone? Or the bit infront of the school with Bill? Because those are the only two places I can remember that have infected where you can use stealth but you gotta kill them all to progress.

Here it seemed like the game really wanted me to do use the stealth elements, but a shotgun to the face was often faster and easier. I ended up playing it like I do Far Cry 3 or Assassin's Creed... and it didn't have the satisfying combat mechanics for that to truly satisfy. I wanted to go more stealthy and avoid killing as much as possible, but the game wasn't coded that way.

I will say the game has an issue with difficulty progression. As you continue it just gets easier. By the time you get the flamethrower infected pose no threat at all, which is why I never pick it up anymore. The Ellie segment changes things up a bit, but once you get to Autumn the game becomes almost all about the story.

 

[Netrigan]

I would define "proper stealth" as being able to successfully by-pass the fight more often than not.

Granted, I'm much more of a Kill Them All, starting with the easily picked off ones... but this game doesn't quite have the ammo to make that satisfying. I just hated that moment, fairly early in the game, where I sneaked past a Clicker and a bunch of Runners only to figure out that I could't advance in the level until I had killed them all. At which point it became, Shoot Clicker In Head & Bash Everyone's Brain's In... a tactic which I would repeatedly use instead of using the stealth system.

You mean the part right after you get the revolver, where you have to go down alone? Or the bit infront of the school with Bill? Because those are the only two places I can remember that have infected where you can use stealth but you gotta kill them all to progress.

Here it seemed like the game really wanted me to do use the stealth elements, but a shotgun to the face was often faster and easier. I ended up playing it like I do Far Cry 3 or Assassin's Creed... and it didn't have the satisfying combat mechanics for that to truly satisfy. I wanted to go more stealthy and avoid killing as much as possible, but the game wasn't coded that way.

I will say the game has an issue with difficulty progression. As you continue it just gets easier. By the time you get the flamethrower infected pose no threat at all, which is why I never pick it up anymore. The Ellie segment changes things up a bit, but once you get to Autumn the game becomes almost all about the story.

Where I just said "to hell with sneaking by Clickers" is when you're still with Tess and going through the buildings in the city. You have to go forward and clear an area. This was shortly after they introduced the Clickers, so I was still trying to do the whole Stealth thing and didn't initially understand what I was doing... I just figured they'd sneak through once I found a way through. Anyway, you had to move an item into position to climp up to the ledge above. I wasted a few stealth attempts before I finally got through them and realized there was virtually no way to move the noisy cart in position. KILL! KILL! KILL!

Can't remember if the Molotov cocktail room was before or after it. It's where you learn to craft them and there's an area with a fair number of clickers. At the end of that, you have to move something in position to climb up to a ledge above.

After these two encounters I just went Kill Krazy Rampage on them. Usually there was some cart action or an Ellie ledge move at the end, so that was the last time I tried stealthing through Clickers.

Humans I'd usually try to stealth to thin their numbers, but it was often easier to just run between cover and brain them with something... but I was playing on Normal

 

[Casual Shinji]

Where I just said "to hell with sneaking by Clickers" is when you're still with Tess and going through the buildings in the city. You have to go forward and clear an area. This was shortly after they introduced the Clickers, so I was still trying to do the whole Stealth thing and didn't initially understand what I was doing... I just figured they'd sneak through once I found a way through. Anyway, you had to move an item into position to climp up to the ledge above. I wasted a few stealth attempts before I finally got through them and realized there was virtually no way to move the noisy cart in position. KILL! KILL! KILL!

Can't remember if the Molotov cocktail room was before or after it. It's where you learn to craft them and there's an area with a fair number of clickers. At the end of that, you have to move something in position to climb up to a ledge above.

After these two encounters I just went Kill Krazy Rampage on them. Usually there was some cart action or an Ellie ledge move at the end, so that was the last time I tried stealthing through Clickers.

I think I know which areas you mean. That's the subway station right after you get molotov access with the ladder at the end. It is a tense sneak area, but it can be done so long as you manage to take out the three Runners. See even if a Clicker spots you you can shake them off if you get enough distance between them and you and go back into sneak mode. But Runners basically work as spotters so it's really hard to get back into stealth with them around.

During one playthrough in that same area, after I had taking out the Runners, a Clicker spotted me which ofcourse sent the entire nest snarling after me. I just ran for it to the otherside of the station (near to where you enter the area). Then I noticed they lost sight of me, and now all having congregated near the enterance I just snuck back to camly retrieve the ladder.

Humans I'd usually try to stealth to thin their numbers, but it was often easier to just run between cover and brain them with something... but I was playing on Normal

Both Normal and Hard give you ample supplies if you play it cool. Survivor really dries up the well, apart from bricks, bottles, and salvage. I got to the end of the game and ended up stuck on that mode, because I simply didn't have anymore ammo and health packs, but with only a sliver of health and a hallway of armed goons in fortified positions. Enemies also have drastically increased eyesight. And Listen mode is locked off as well, though I feel this shouldn't have been in the game anyway. The stealth is some much more tense when you don't exactly know where the enemies are.

 

[Evonisia]

I will say the game has an issue with difficulty progression. As you continue it just gets easier. By the time you get the flamethrower infected pose no threat at all, which is why I never pick it up anymore. The Ellie segment changes things up a bit, but once you get to Autumn the game becomes almost all about the story.

Which I think is quite a shame seeing as I actually didn't use the flamethrower until the final mission (mostly because I was bored) and there were some great moments that threatened to be hard sometimes maybe after Autumn.