Revolution Crushed (a Thought excercise)

[AgDr_ODST]

I was browsing about and I happened upon a little what if scenario that a user came up with and made into a thread in which the question was raised who would win in a full on war between muggles(non magic users) and Witches and Wizards.(of the Harry Potter verse variety) And it(combined with my love of history and that ever present questionn of "what if?") got me eventually to thinking. Suppose for a moment that during the early days of the American Revolution (or perhaps before the war even started) the Brits brought the hammer down massively and killed or captured Americas leaders(Washington, Franklin, Adams, Jefferson) and America never became a nation. How drastically would world affairs have changed? Would America come to be in a later more violent struggle? would Slavery on the continent never end? Would certain inventions that came from American minds never see the light of day? Ponder on these questions and more as you discuss.

 

[FalloutJack]

I have an answer for this.

You see, the real lynch-pin on this is Washington, acting as a general at the time during the revolution. He was faced with terrifying odds as the British had more men. Whereas while Adams, Franklin, and Jefferson were important, they were not an effect on the battle at large in the direct sense. Removing them from the board doesn't stop thousands of rebel colonists from fighting in a war. What IS important is Washington, who was in charge. There might be a different effect in strategy and execution if he were not present. But then, history has a way of making its prominent figures look indespensible.

I feel that if those four were taken, there would still be an America, though not in the form seen BY them. Somebody else would take their places and have to set down law, practice, and leadership. In terms of the Declaration of Independence, each member of congress present was pretty much there with orders to do the following, so there might still be one. America may get born into a more cynical place, where the question of slavery is still hushed for some more years. Maybe Lincoln still does something about it to ruffle the feathers of the CSA when it comes out.

 

[lightningmagurn]

America would have not been started until around the time the others colonies started gaining independance. Or we would be like Ireland. Which is bad.

 

[AgDr_ODST]

only two responses....Escapist people I am dissapoint and very sad face DX

 

[knight56]

Well if you eliminate all the others you still have Benedict Arnold and no one to push Benedict Arnold around on false charges so he has one less reason to betray America and potentially win the war by himself.

 

[chif-ii]

America as an independent country would not exist. Without Washington, we would be screwed. That is a fact. But the revolutionary spirit wouldn't just have died - I think it would still be there. Maybe the remaining revolutionaries would have come up with a Magna Carta kind of deal with King George. But the other colonies that would later rebel, like...India, and stuff, they would exist.

Hell, it's not impossible that the revolution could succeed even without Washington. The British are running a long distance empire, so perhaps the rebellion would come out on top eventually.

 

[SimuLord]

America would eventually have been turned loose into the Dominion of North America some time in the 19th century and we would have turned into a "what if Canada were a superpower?" sort of exercise in European-style government and culture in the New World.

It does raise some interesting questions though, since the Napoleonic Wars would undoubtedly have spilled over into the New World. With no Thomas Jefferson-led USA to whom to sell the Louisiana Purchase, Napoleon may have decided instead to sell it to Mexico after that country's declaration of independence in 1810 in order to fund the Russia campaign---or perhaps France's realization that there would be no buyer for their North American holdings (since Napoleon sure as hell wouldn't sell that land to his archenemy England and Spain wouldn't empty its treasury to buy it) would've nipped the Napoleonic Wars in the bud for want of money to pay the troops.

And given that cascade effect on France's internal politics, what of Prussia, Austria, and Russia? Many of Europe's alliances at the time were defensive pacts against a common threat from the west---would something akin to the World War I Eastern Front have broken out at some point sooner than 1914?

People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect...

 

[HonorableChairman]

Ok depends what you mean.

If this also undoes the years of salutary neglect on the colonies, then there would be no desire for independence (at least not for some time).

If salutary neglect still occurred and Britain just suddenly brought down the hammer, then the rebellion would still go on. By the time people started becoming hot and bothered about the king and such, the colonies were functioning nearly as independent countries already and were only upset because Britain finally started exercising its power over the colonies after years of not doing so. If the rebellion didn't succeed, America would become something of an unstable region.

 

[Tinman_1993]

America in the best case scenario would be like Canada, the worst it would be like some of the African colonies( highly unlikely though).On the plus side America would have come into two wars 3 years late for both and expect all the glory so Germany would have lost much quicker

But when you really delve into the reasons for the revolution you have to side with the British, The colonists got them sucked into the French-Indian wars which were costly. Someone needs to pay for that so a tax increase was brought up (while i disagree with taxation without representation) and they decided that if they have to pay the tab that they were gonna run.

 

[SimuLord]

Someone needs to pay for that so a tax increase was brought up (while i disagree with taxation without representation) and they decided that if they have to pay the tab that they were gonna run.

A tradition that can be seen in America today with everything from abandoned mortgages to the "Repudiate the Debt, Dissolve the Government" Tea Party clowns.

 

[Ossian]

Well, world war 1-2 would of been drastically different. American influence in the WW2 was great, but Russia could of still taken Germany to town without us. Problem is whether England would of survived that long without our backing early in the war. Then again, if we were still a holding of England, we would of entered the war sooner, possibly with a weaker army and economy.

Can't really logic this one out I'm afraid, too many variables.

This is assuming the Napoleonic wars didn't change the course of the wars.

 

[Oskamunda]

I've a superb idea, let's waste hours contemplating the hypothetical nature of history with no measurable result?

There are too many variables here to calculate...even a supposition would be a silly thing to make. Think of how difficult it must be for Paul Atreides to see into the future to guide humanity along a path [a Golden Path? Eh? Eh? Never mind] that leads away from jihad and ultimate destruction. Muad'Dib had prescient powers from the thousands of years-long manipulation of the human genetic lines by the Bene Gesserit to produce the ultimate human being, and these powers were augmented by the geriatric spice...and you want to do what he does backwards and to no observable end? You are not Paul Muad'Dib, nor are you any lesser breed of mentat.

Hint: He loses, 'cause even with his powers, he can't do it. Even his son, who takes the form of Shai-Hulud and rules for four thousand years can't do it.

only two responses....Escapist people I am dissapoint and very sad face DX

Yes, I am disappointed with Escapist today, as well. Every single thread I have read today is absolute crap. Every single opinion or question seems to have been crafted by children with higher-brain disorders. I worry that Yahtzee has made The Escapist too popular for it's own good...the WoW crowd are infiltrating. Gettin' kinda Goldshire-y in here as of late.

 

[AgDr_ODST]

I've a superb idea, let's waste hours contemplating the hypothetical nature of history with no measurable result?

There are too many variables here to calculate...even a supposition would be a silly thing to make. Think of how difficult it must be for Paul Atreides to see into the future to guide humanity along a path [a Golden Path? Eh? Eh? Never mind] that leads away from jihad and ultimate destruction. Muad'Dib had prescient powers from the thousands of years-long manipulation of the human genetic lines by the Bene Gesserit to produce the ultimate human being, and these powers were augmented by the geriatric spice...and you want to do what he does backwards and to no observable end? You are not Paul Muad'Dib, nor are you any lesser breed of mentat.

Hint: He loses, 'cause even with his powers, he can't do it. Even his son, who takes the form of Shai-Hulud and rules for four thousand years can't do it.

snip

Yes, I am disappointed with Escapist today, as well. Every single thread I have read today is absolute crap. Every single opinion or question seems to have been crafted by children with higher-brain disorders. I worry that Yahtzee has made The Escapist too popular for it's own good...the WoW crowd are infiltrating. Gettin' kinda Goldshire-y in here as of late.

Well aren't you a case book example of an elitist jackass. Going and getting all high and mighty starting to ramble about something completely unrelated to the topic at hand. Does pulling that crap make you feel good or something? Regardless of that answer heres an idea for you, go along with it and use your head to think for a moment to imagine an answer to the question I've posed like everyone else here or shove off and don't bother posting a response in a thread(or threads) on the site if you happen to feel they are 'absolute crap' on a given day(or whatever)....and if that means you never post or come here again then allright it won't bother me any.

anyway pal my little grivance with your snobbery aside I still hope have a merry christmas

 

[Zaik]

Another group of dudes would come along later and do it all over again until we ran out of dudes or everyone stopped caring.

 

[WolfThomas]

Wouldn't slavery have ended sooner? If they'd still been part of the commonwealth they have assumedly abolished slavery much earlier when Britain did.

 

[Oskamunda]

I've a superb idea, let's waste hours contemplating the hypothetical nature of history with no measurable result?

There are too many variables here to calculate...even a supposition would be a silly thing to make. Think of how difficult it must be for Paul Atreides to see into the future to guide humanity along a path [a Golden Path? Eh? Eh? Never mind] that leads away from jihad and ultimate destruction. Muad'Dib had prescient powers from the thousands of years-long manipulation of the human genetic lines by the Bene Gesserit to produce the ultimate human being, and these powers were augmented by the geriatric spice...and you want to do what he does backwards and to no observable end? You are not Paul Muad'Dib, nor are you any lesser breed of mentat.

Hint: He loses, 'cause even with his powers, he can't do it. Even his son, who takes the form of Shai-Hulud and rules for four thousand years can't do it.

Yes, I am disappointed with Escapist today, as well. Every single thread I have read today is absolute crap. Every single opinion or question seems to have been crafted by children with higher-brain disorders. I worry that Yahtzee has made The Escapist too popular for it's own good...the WoW crowd are infiltrating. Gettin' kinda Goldshire-y in here as of late.

Well aren't you a case book example of an elitist jackass. Going and getting all high and mighty starting to ramble about something completely unrelated to the topic at hand. Does pulling that crap make you feel good or something? Regardless of that answer heres an idea for you, go along with it and use your head to think for a moment to imagine an answer to the question I've posed like everyone else here or shove off and don't bother posting a response in a thread(or threads) on the site if you happen to feel they are 'absolute crap' on a given day(or whatever)....and if that means you never post or come here again then allright it won't bother me any.

anyway pal my little grivance with your snobbery aside I still hope have a merry christmas.

Here. We. Go.

No elitism, this just happens to be the subject of literally hundreds of writings and musings from before the Victorian era. Sorry for pointing that out, but I imagine if a thirteen-year-old came to his teachers and friends with a re-write of Hamlet, they would likewise tell him, "Umm...dude, this has been done before..." I simply see no purpose in the thread, as you can get a bunch personal inspiration for such a subject with a five minute search on the thing known as "The Internet."

Not unrelated to topic. Questioning validity of topic is intimately associated with said topic.

Using my head. Using my head to illustrate how this is not a conversation that will go anywhere good. Look at my original post, it is full of logical deductions and inference of reason. Just because you haven't discerned that doesn't mean you get to call me an idiot.

It's my right to respond to a thread. I felt the need to respond in exactly the manner I did. I don't see any moderators scorning me for my opinion, or backing you up over me, do you? Free Speech, thank you Hobbes and Locke.

Sorry for your grievance, and sorry you felt it necessary to garner sympathy for yourself by

getting all high and mighty starting to ramble about something completely unrelated to the topic at hand. Does pulling that crap make you feel good or something?

It shows a lot about someone when they insult and then endeavor to show the rest of the forum population that they are the person with the solid moral center [especially when they do it hypocritically, that's always good for a laugh].

If you would have preferred, I could have written a short novella about all of the historical changes from said alternate history, complete with stock market changes, alterations in the cost of burying a human body, differences in accepted religious powers in the world, and the cost of housing in Albuquerque. That would have been more suitable, yes?

I'll get right on that.

Or maybe I won't.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Someone needs to pay for that so a tax increase was brought up (while i disagree with taxation without representation) and they decided that if they have to pay the tab that they were gonna run.

A tradition that can be seen in America today with everything from abandoned mortgages to the "Repudiate the Debt, Dissolve the Government" Tea Party clowns.

To be fair, the the taxes asked for by the Crown were significantly lower than those paid by the citizens in Britain. Furthermore, the Great War for Empire (Or the French and Indian War) was kicked off by neither the French or the British but the Colonists themselves.

Really, if you step back from the patriotic nonsense that runs under the whole ordeal, the reason for the revolution was incredibly silly. We started a war and lost every battle we participated in. Britain was forced to fight a world war as a result of our action that included sending troops to the Colonies. The colonies more or less gave up fighting given that we never managed to win anything important unless the British troops were around. When the war ended, Britain needed to deal with the mountain of debt incurred by fighting a world war for the better part of a decade and the colonists threw a fit because they had the gall to ask us to pay.

To me it seems like a war that could have very easily been avoided had someone managed to see reason for a few moments.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

I've a superb idea, let's waste hours contemplating the hypothetical nature of history with no measurable result?

There are too many variables here to calculate...even a supposition would be a silly thing to make. Think of how difficult it must be for Paul Atreides to see into the future to guide humanity along a path [a Golden Path? Eh? Eh? Never mind] that leads away from jihad and ultimate destruction. Muad'Dib had prescient powers from the thousands of years-long manipulation of the human genetic lines by the Bene Gesserit to produce the ultimate human being, and these powers were augmented by the geriatric spice...and you want to do what he does backwards and to no observable end? You are not Paul Muad'Dib, nor are you any lesser breed of mentat.

Hint: He loses, 'cause even with his powers, he can't do it. Even his son, who takes the form of Shai-Hulud and rules for four thousand years can't do it.

only two responses....Escapist people I am dissapoint and very sad face DX

Yes, I am disappointed with Escapist today, as well. Every single thread I have read today is absolute crap. Every single opinion or question seems to have been crafted by children with higher-brain disorders. I worry that Yahtzee has made The Escapist too popular for it's own good...the WoW crowd are infiltrating. Gettin' kinda Goldshire-y in here as of late.

Thus why the entire endeavor is an "exercise". It is a chance to guess at what might change and offer reasons as to why. This is not a new or unusual thing - it is kind of a big part of judging history. Without at least having a reasonable and hypothetical alternative to compare it to, it becomes impossible to judge the merit of an action. Had the Texans defending the Alamo simply laid down their arms at the start of the Siege or abandoned their post beforehand would the outcome of the revolution have been different? This is an important question to ponder because the answer directly determines how we view the battle. Was it an example of people foolishly throwing their lives away because of pride or did their action actually allow the bulk of the Texan army to improve their position?

Just because we mere mortals are incapable of knowing for certain how history would change if some action turned out differently does not mean there is no good to be found in the exercise. Besides, I would willingly assert that the very drive that makes us question our past is the one that makes us question our present course. If you really find no value in hindsight, then you couldn't possibly find foresight to be of worth. And if that were true, then why bother considering any action when the number of variables in play are too great to ensure an accurate judgment?