Right to die?

[PanasonicYouth]

Ok, been rolling this one about in my head, thought I might as well get a little discussion going.
I work in neurological operating theatres as a nurse. A few nights ago while I was working we had an emergency patient come in after throwing themselves in front of a car. The patient was forty years old, had a history of depression and alcoholism, and this was not their first suicide attempt.

By the time they came to theatres their pupils had been fixed and dilated for about an hour, if you're not too sure what this means, I can tell you it's definitely not good news. This person was basically rolling through the doors dead.
The decision was made to do everything we could to save the persons life, even though both surgeons and the anaesthetist thought it was a forgone conclusion.
I thought to myself, is this a waste of time and resources?

Don't get me wrong here, the whole reason I do what I do is because I want to help people, but would this person thank us for doing it? If they miraculously survive are they not going to just try again? It really hit home to me the fragile balance doctors have to keep between respecting the wishes of a patient and doing everything in their power to save lives. It's also worth keeping in mind that anyone has the right to refuse life saving surgery if they're capable of doing so.

What decision would you guys make if you were in the doctors position?

 

[Able Seacat]

I guess it comes down to the patients 'best interests and mental capacity'. If the patient was suffering from depression and alcoholism then you could argue that their mental capacity was impaired and so even if the patient was likely to refuse treatment it may not be in their best interest.

 

[Phasmal]

I think in cases of depression you should do what you can, simply because that person is probably not in their right mind at the time. (I'm saying this as a person who has a lot of experience dealing with depressed people).

So yeah, if I was in that position, save them then give them to a head-doctor.

Don't you have to refer someone to a psychologist if they try to commit suicide or is that not true?

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

I'm tickled by the notions behind "right to die". Are we suddenly so interested in staving off the inevitability we call it a "right"? In your example; are we going to insure the pain and misery persist in this mans life merely because we can? 'Suicide watch' is a prime example of projecting our own fears onto others.

I suppose that's one of the many reasons I'm not a doctor; because I'll look the other way when someone asks me to.

If we insure that everyone has the right to lives their lives anyway they choose; that includes how they choose to end them.

Relevant...

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[JoJo]

I respect people's right to decide what to do with their own life, but if I was in the doctor's place I would still strive to save the patient. Why? Who knows, maybe they'll change their mind and be glad I saved their life, maybe just as they were about to be hit by the car they realised they didn't want to die after-all.

If they still want to die, there's nothing stopping them attempting suicide again when they recover, but if I let them die and they would have wanted to live... there's no way to bring them back.

 

[Genocidicles]

I think everyone should have the right, providing they undergo a psych evaluation first to ensure they're not suffering from depression and the like.

 

[Kae]

Well I don't think it's the Doctor's job to let them die, their job is to save people's lives whether they want it or not, and let's face it most people aren't really sure about what they want and ending their lives would be a huge mistake probably, in any case sure if people have a right to die, then you better kill yourself in a way that you cannot be saved like shot to the head, or hanging yourself when you are alone, or just some way that won't give anybody the chance to save you, because if a life can be saved it should be saved.

Besides if people are doing it in a way that gives them a chance to be saved they may not be as sold to the idea as they think they are, but in any case it doesn't matter what the patient has done or thinks, a Doctor's job is to save them.
[sup][sup]It's a good thing I'm not a Doctor, I'm pretty sure I'd be sued for something, besides I'd be like a crap version of Dr. House.[/sup][/sup]

 

[DugMachine]

All about their state of mind. If a terminally ill patient is practically on his death bed and the doctors can give him maybe a week more of life hooked up to machines then why not let them die if they really want to?

Manic depressives who just want to end it all... well on one hand they should be able to kill themselves if they feel they can't deal with life anymore but some sort of help should be given.

 

[Able Seacat]

Depression is a condition, but not an illness.

Depression is considered an illness and there are treatments available. An individual who suffers with depression may not be in the right state of mind and so health care professionals have to come to a decision as to what the individuals best interests may be.

 

[DSK-]

My mum has always said, in her own words, that if she ever "Became a vegetable" we are to pull the plug on her. I can still remember the night she was crying her eyes out whilst having a stroke trying to say that to me over and over again.

At the moment she's having a rough time of it because of her stroke. She's in pain almost all the time and in fact today she had an accident that even further affected her already limited mobility.

Long story short, if there was ever a situation where being her being alive causes her far too much pain, I'll gladly do my best to relieve her of it.

 

[Rednog]

Depression is a condition, but not an illness.

Had I been the anesthesiologist in this situation, I would have prescribed a fatal dose of morphine.

Two things to address here, I don't know what definitions you're using, but in the medical world condition and illness kind of go hand in hand. And the various forms of depression are mental illnesses in the DSM.

And I hope you realize that for that action, if you were a doctor you'd lose your license, and be charged with manslaughter.

 

[RedFeather1975]

I think where I live one can fill out a form declaring that they do not want to be resuscitated.
Not sure if it works in cases of attempted suicide.

My opinion is that the body and mind are separate and do not necessarily want the same things. The body's motivation is to indefinitely receive nourishment to persist, retain conditioned behaviours necessary for persistence, and propagate it's own design. If the mind doesn't have the endurance or a desire for any of that, it can feel hopelessly trapped, and unlike the body, the mind can desire cessation. We go to sleep at night to turn off our minds, but our bodies can never afford to turn off. The mind can go completely unstable if not allowed cessation.

So from my perspective the question is about what is more important, only seeking to preserve instances of compatibility, or assume that one must always exist and force it to.

 

[Xan Krieger]

I fully believe you have the right to end your life when you see fit and if a doctor tries to intervene like in the OP that's just wrong. They wanted to die so let them die in peace.

 

[Easton Dark]

If he's a depressed alcoholic, he may not be thinking with a clear head when he decides to go into traffic. I say save him. Give him a day, if he says he wants to die then, do it. It's his decision how his life goes.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Of course we should let them have a right to die. People in the health profession simply want, like everyone else, to make a business out of everything. That's all this is about. If we let people have a right to die, doctors and nurses would have less to do, with less opportunities to make money and feel good about themselves. So we don't let them. Hippocrates was a great entrepreneur.

 

[Gergar12_v1legacy]

I am pretty sure if he saw his family, or his friends he would change his mind. He may be in a bad period of his life.

 

[bl4ckh4wk64]

Ah, this goes to the Hypocratic Oath though. and the problems with it. Yes, you don't want to harm him, but at the same time it would be a waste of precious resources to save him only for him to try again. I've thought about this for a while and I still have no idea. I'd hoped that I wouldn't be asked this until med school. I mean, you are required to help him, but what does help mean in this situation? It all depends on context.
You said he was depressed and drinking, right? That means he's not in the right state of mind, do everything you can for him and then try to find any close family members and ask them what he's going through. If you can't really think of anything, make him go to the shrink.

Of course, if he's still unconscious then you could always get a family member to sign a DNR.

 

[Evil Smurf]

Ah, this goes to the Hypocratic Oath though. and the problems with it. Yes, you don't want to harm him, but at the same time it would be a waste of precious resources to save him only for him to try again. I've thought about this for a while and I still have no idea. I'd hoped that I wouldn't be asked this until med school. I mean, you are required to help him, but what does help mean in this situation? It all depends on context.
You said he was depressed and drinking, right? That means he's not in the right state of mind, do everything you can for him and then try to find any close family members and ask them what he's going through. If you can't really think of anything, make him go to the shrink.

Of course, if he's still unconscious then you could always get a family member to sign a DNR.

pretty much this, but I'd try to convince him that life was worth living.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

I thought to myself, is this a waste of time and resources?
What decision would you guys make if you were in the doctors position?

Not to waste time and resources when there are patients who actually want to be helped.

Yeah. If someone wants to die, you try to treat their mental health. If they still want to die, it is probably time to step aside and do no harm. If they're already Brain Dead (as your post suggests) and you're just trying to save their meat... yeah, stop. Check the donor card and send the spare parts to people that need them.

Helping suicidal people be not suicidal is important.

However, that can't supersede the right to choose what happens to one's own body. And yes, that includes suicide and assisted suicide for terminal patients or chronic pain patients.