Role models

[poleboy]

We've had a lot of threads recently dealing with video game characters. Who do you like, who do you hate, who would you save and last but not least, the many variations on the female video game character thread.
However, if I may, I'd like to take this a bit beyond popular opinion. I want to know if you think games have any good role models. Someone whose ideals you admire or, perhaps more relevant, someone you would feel comfortable that (your) children emulated.

Since most games involve violence or unrealistic behavior on some level or another, this evaluation does not need to include every single action of the character. For instance, while I applaud Samus Aran's efforts to save the universe from Metroids over and over (despite never getting paid, apparently), I would probably not want my children rolling into perfect spherical balls and place bombs around themselves in other to jump a little higher.

 

[Retoru]

Since most games involve violence or unrealistic behavior on some level or another, this evaluation does not need to include every single action of the character. For instance, while I applaud Samus Aran's efforts to save the universe from Metroids over and over (despite never getting paid, apparently), I would probably not want my children rolling into perfect spherical balls and place bombs around themselves in other to jump a little higher.

But, just think of the implications of the morph ball in bed! I'm sure there's something dirty that could be worked out with that, but I'm too sleepy to actually work it out myself. So, could you work it out for me and get back to me on it? Thanks.

Seriously though, a lot of game characters are too one-dimensional to really serve as a role model to anyone. Life isn't one-dimensional, you need to really be adaptable to make it(Just ask Darwin ). But, I digress, so let's see if I can work a relevant post into this meandering load that's spewing out of my cake hole, shall we?

If I had to choose a game character as a role model I'd go with Bernard from Maniac Mansion. Why, you ask? It's simple, really. Bernard proved in that game that you can solve your problems with brains rather than brawn, that not everything has an undeniable and violent end, and that just by being intelligent, creative, and never giving up you can accomplish your goals.

 

[Sayvara]

I don't want my children to emulate anyone. I don't want them to emulate me... I don't want them to emulate my spouse... I want them to be themselves in that they should use their heads and their hearts to find their own morals and set of rules to live by. I don't mind telling me to fuck off and that what I teach them is wrong, as long as they have good and valid reasons for it and can argue for them in a rational civilized manner. I won't like it... I'm gonna be pissed off as hell... but it's their lives. and as long as they are not breaking the law or killing themselves, I'll do my very best to see them through it.

And yes, I do have kids if you're wondering... 4 and 9 years old.

/S

 

[TaborMallory]

Not sure if this counts, but the last boss and ending cutscene to Bioshock totally ruined the ENTIRE game for me :'(

 

[Retoru]

I don't want my children to emulate anyone. I don't want them to emulate me... I don't want them to emulate my spouse...

I want my son to emulate NES and SNES just like his old man. Beyond that, I hope he grows up to be his own man and questions everything.

 

[poleboy]

I don't want my children to emulate anyone. I don't want them to emulate me... I don't want them to emulate my spouse... I want them to be themselves in that they should use their heads and their hearts to find their own morals and set of rules to live by.

That's very commendable, but children still need to learn from others... ideas and concepts rarely spring into existence out of nowhere and whether you want them to or not, children usually emulate their parents because it's the people they (hopefully) know and trust. So, even though you don't want your children to copy the actions of a video game character, is there perhaps one whose ideals or actions you respect?

@Retoru: Bernard's not a bad example... I'm just not crazy about the whole stereotype nerd image he's got going. Kudos to him for fixing a tube radio though, most geeks today couldn't do that. Then again, the game is like 20 years old.

I think Planescape: Torment has a lot of philosophical gems, even if the characters are not always the best role models. Dak'kon, for instance, teaches the importance of being honorable and keeping your word, but he takes it to extremes. And the ending

Spoiler

teaches that anyone can be redeemed if he is willing to pay the price, as well as how sacrifice can be a noble thing.

 

[Sayvara]

I don't want my children to emulate anyone. I don't want them to emulate me... I don't want them to emulate my spouse... I want them to be themselves in that they should use their heads and their hearts to find their own morals and set of rules to live by.

That's very commendable, but children still need to learn from others... ideas and concepts rarely spring into existence out of nowhere and whether you want them to or not, children usually emulate their parents because it's the people they (hopefully) know and trust. So, even though you don't want your children to copy the actions of a video game character, is there perhaps one whose ideals or actions you respect?

I would never bring in a vido game character as a role model, for the simple fact that they are figments of someone's imagination. And kids know this... kids separate fantasy and reality a heckuva lot more better than we give them credit for.

Sure they need to learn... but not from "someone".... they need to learn from everyone.

I have some ideals that I live by myself, yes. A few of them being:

- Follow the law, even of you don't like it. It's not that hard.
- Don't judge, because you don't know the whole story.
. There is a reason for everything... so find the reason before you form an opinion.
- You'll never succeed if you don't try, so try damnit! (This is a bit Yoda'ish I suppose but I don't think my kids will relate to a little green bugeyed swamp-dweller that speaks in reverse polish notation).
- A kind polite word gets you alot more than does bitterness.

...and I would like to see my kids heed to some of these. If they don't... well all they need to do is explain why and we can have a chat about it and I'll tell them why I, in my own personal opinion, think that they are right or wrong.

/S

 

[poleboy]

I would never bring in a vido game character as a role model, for the simple fact that they are figments of someone's imagination.

I think that's a bit extreme, but how you raise your children is your choice, of course. However, I like to think that at least some of my ideals and more noble traits come from the books I've read over the years (especially as a child), and those were mostly just "figments" as well. Escapism is important to me, but I think you can still apply the things you learn in other worlds to the real one.

 

[tobyornottoby]

Since most games involve violence or unrealistic behavior on some level or another, this evaluation does not need to include every single action of the character. For instance, while I applaud Samus Aran's efforts to save the universe from Metroids over and over (despite never getting paid, apparently), I would probably not want my children rolling into perfect spherical balls and place bombs around themselves in other to jump a little higher.

She's a bounty hunter I'm sure she gets paid

- Follow the law, even of you don't like it. It's not that hard.
. There is a reason for everything... so find the reason before you form an opinion.

These are a bit tricky together. A lot of times, people are breaking the law, but not breaking the reason that law was created in the first time...
I'm a big fan of the second, but not of the first

- Don't judge, because you don't know the whole story.

Judging-Perceiving is one of the sliders on the err... Jung personality test thingy, which isn't about right or wrong, so no need to punish your kids for that

Other than than good ideals I have only one:

"Don't do to others what you wouldn't want to be done to yourself"

I would never bring in a vido game character as a role model, for the simple fact that they are figments of someone's imagination. And kids know this... kids separate fantasy and reality a heckuva lot more better than we give them credit for.

Sure they need to learn... but not from "someone".... they need to learn from everyone.

Stories are made and told for the EXACT reason of teaching you something. That they're fictional is simply safer.

right, OT: I have a hard time thinking about game role models, all that fighting and shooting, what's that going to help in life

 

[Sayvara]

I would never bring in a vido game character as a role model, for the simple fact that they are figments of someone's imagination.

I think that's a bit extreme, but how you raise your children is your choice, of course. However, I like to think that at least some of my ideals and more noble traits come from the books I've read over the years (especially as a child), and those were mostly just "figments" as well. Escapism is important to me, but I think you can still apply the things you learn in other worlds to the real one.

Well of course a fantasy world can have bearing on a real world, but it's a bit step from there to actually appointing someone from a fantasy world a role model.

So I just pick whatever parts I like from people, whether they are real or virtual, and I hope my kids will do the same.

For example: I think the act of getting up and engaging in activism for a cause is quite commendable rather than just sitting on your bum and doing nothing more than forwarding emails naviely believing that such nonsense will make the UN force China to squeeze the balls off of the junta in Burma. But despite my sentiment that activism is good, I still think that Greenpeace are a bunch of unwashed twats & dicks for so stubbornly maintainting that nuclear power is evil and bad despite so many rational arguments pointing to the contrary.

Hence I pick the part that is good (activating yourself) and leave behind the part that is bad (never changing your mind, no matter what you face).

Pick and chose...

/S

 

[wewontdie11]

For instance, while I applaud Samus Aran's efforts to save the universe from Metroids over and over (despite never getting paid, apparently), I would probably not want my children rolling into perfect spherical balls and place bombs around themselves in other to jump a little higher.

You kidding me?! That would be awesome if my kids could do that!

I don't think I'd want my kids to emulate any fictional characters really. I'd much rather they took inspiration from real heroes like people in the fire service or teachers or something like that. I'm pretty sure I have never had any serious role models, particularly from games, and I grew up OK...I think.

 

[Sayvara]

- Follow the law, even of you don't like it. It's not that hard.
. There is a reason for everything... so find the reason before you form an opinion.

These are a bit tricky together. A lot of times, people are breaking the law, but not breaking the reason that law was created in the first time...
I'm a big fan of the second, but not of the first

Trying to say that you know the spirit of the law better than those that drew up it up is presumptuous at best, and a big risk for disaster when you don't know what the spirit is. Self-defence is one of those things...

- Don't judge, because you don't know the whole story.

Judging-Perceiving is one of the sliders on the err... Jung personality test thingy, which isn't about right or wrong, so no need to punish your kids for that

Well quite honestly Jung and Meyer-Briggs can go fuck themselves in that regard. Rational thinking can always force you to say "Ok, I really don't like that... but it's their lives". I do that alot. When I see other parents letting/forbidding/requiring their kids to do certain things, I can go "Double-U Tee Eff!?" to myself as a knee-jerk reaction. But I can also slap that reaction down by thinking "I'm not the parent of those kids... I wouldn't want those guys to go stomping all over how I raise my own". Going by the principle of Live and Let Live is a conscious choice, not a subconscious one.

I would never bring in a vido game character as a role model, for the simple fact that they are figments of someone's imagination. And kids know this... kids separate fantasy and reality a heckuva lot more better than we give them credit for.

Sure they need to learn... but not from "someone".... they need to learn from everyone.

Stories are made and told for the EXACT reason of teaching you something. That they're fictional is simply safer.

Well that is the exact problem with stories: they are made simple; black & white; good & evil... they are unambigiuous and easy to take a side in. Real life is not that. Real life is not two naught-dimentional singlarities of Right and Wrong... it's full 3D, 36-bit color that you are watching through a toilet roll with a blur-filter. Stories only help us when we are faced with a clear and simple choice. But they do nothing as to teach us what to do when the choices aren't obvious; how to form an opinon of your own; how to look for facts; how to analyze and criticise; and most importantly: how to admit to yourself that you could be wrong, and that you may need to change your opinion.

/S

 

[Aeviv]

Soap, Gaz, Griggs and Cpt Price- think about it, they are real flawed characters like all humans, but are almost like superman and batman, fighting for peace and justice! And British and American supremacy!

 

[Cyborg_Incognito]

CJ from GTA San Andreas is actually quite a good role model. he tries to get out "the game", has a strong no drugs stance and is a strong family man.

not perfect, but commendable =)

 

[tobyornottoby]

Trying to say that you know the spirit of the law better than those that drew up it up is presumptuous at best, and a big risk for disaster when you don't know what the spirit is. Self-defence is one of those things...

Take this example from I think a few years back already: A women walks on the street, and eats a sandwish she made herself at home. The sandwish was in a bag, which she throws in a garbage bin when she finishes her meal. A nearby police officer halts her and fines her.

According to the law, she WAS wrong. Those garbage bins are officially not for home garbage. Why not? Because else people would throw away all their garbage away for free in public garbage bins, instead of paying for their own garbage disposal. Thus, such laws are there.

But to fine a woman who just threw away an empty sachet... I'm against it, according to your rule you're in favor of it. However, I say neither of us is truly right or wrong.

Well quite honestly Jung and Meyer-Briggs can go fuck themselves in that regard. Rational thinking can always force you to say "Ok, I really don't like that... but it's their lives". I do that alot. When I see other parents letting/forbidding/requiring their kids to do certain things, I can go "Double-U Tee Eff!?" to myself as a knee-jerk reaction. But I can also slap that reaction down by thinking "I'm not the parent of those kids... I wouldn't want those guys to go stomping all over how I raise my own". Going by the principle of Live and Let Live is a conscious choice, not a subconscious one.

Maybe those others think "I DO want others to go stomping at my place when they feel I'm doing wrong, so I'll do them a favor and also do it to them". Interesting... I'll need to ask some Judging friends if they think that way or something

Well that is the exact problem with stories: they are made simple; black & white; good & evil... they are unambigiuous and easy to take a side in. Real life is not that. Real life is not two naught-dimentional singlarities of Right and Wrong... it's full 3D, 36-bit color that you are watching through a toilet roll with a blur-filter. Stories only help us when we are faced with a clear and simple choice. But they do nothing as to teach us what to do when the choices aren't obvious; how to form an opinon of your own; how to look for facts; how to analyze and criticise; and most importantly: how to admit to yourself that you could be wrong, and that you may need to change your opinion.

Odyseus learned he was pretty wrong when he challenged the gods
But yes, stories are very simplistic. You're absolutely right they can't teach us some really important stuff. But they do teach us some other important stuff

 

[Sayvara]

Take this example from I think a few years back already: A women walks on the street, and eats a sandwish she made herself at home.

...

But to fine a woman who just threw away an empty sachet... I'm against it, according to your rule you're in favor of it. However, I say neither of us is truly right or wrong.

Didn't say I think it's right... but it is the lesser of two evils. Sure, one does not need to be completely anal about laws and if a cop looks the other way to something that minor, I won't make a fuss about it. But when someone does get busted over something, I say: don't whine about it because you knew the rules.

Let's take an example closer to home: software and other IP piracy. I agree that someone that downloads the odd TV-series isn't a big-time crook that has caused someone to lose millions of dollars. However, if someone cracks down on them for it, I say that they have nothing to whine about because they knew they weren't allowed to do it.

So to expand on my previous statement: Follow the law, it's not that hard. And if you're bent on not following the law, have the good graces to not be a whiny kid about it when they bust your sorry ass for it.

Maybe those others think "I DO want others to go stomping at my place when they feel I'm doing wrong, so I'll do them a favor and also do it to them". Interesting... I'll need to ask some Judging friends if they think that way or something

Please do. It'll be interresteing to hear if someone that is openly and aggresively opinionated accepts that people do the same towards them.

Odyseus learned he was pretty wrong when he challenged the gods

I think there is nothing wrong in challenging gods because they have yet to prove their existence, hence challenging them is kind of like challenging the Pink Invisible Unicorn or the Flying Spaghetti Monster... i.e. going up against something that is eitehr non-existent or has a very distinct lack of courage to actually make a statement.

In fact I hate the morals of that story... it's very close to what we in Scaninavia call the Jante Law [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jantelagen] or Tall Poppy Syndrome. In short it tells people to not try to excel and make yoruself out to be something better than the crowd because it will only result in a brutal smack-down.

Sure, concindering fighting a battle that you have a low likelihood of winning does warrant thinking twice about it. But never trying means never succeeding. This is a part where I actually commend the americans for because they have this funny little belief that anyone can become anything as long as you work really hard. While naive, it does gives the go-ahead to try, something the Jante Law does not.

Also I don't need a story to tell me that fighting against a superior enemy is a bad thing. I can just go read Sun Tzu for that.

/S

 

[Altorin]

Did you throw samus out because of a gameplay feature?

Samus has more character then many action game heroes, and if you wanted a role model, she's probably the best one in the genre.

Submitted for your consideration, Samus hunts down pirates. Space Pirates. They attempt to use parasitic life forms to take over the universe (OF COURSE!!), and then she goes to their home planet to eradicate them, and she finds a larva, and immediately becomes attatched to it. She can't bring herself to destroy it, and delivers it to scientists for study.

The metroid gets stolen, and then Samus goes out to rescue it. In the end of that adventure, it ends up saving her, and then is destroyed. Samus takes out revenge on the motherbrain for destroying her, for lack of a better word, child, and then flees the exploding planet.

Samus is a decent rolemodel when it comes to video game characters, but you have to look past the morphball.

 

[T3chn0s1s]

This is why we never get invited to any of the good parties, you guys! Idolizing video game characters makes you eat babies and burn nuns!

Ahem...

That having been said, the main character of Lego Island. NO!

The singer from L-E-G-O-Radio on lego island. You can move a mountain, if you do it brick by brick.

 

[hamster mk 4]

There were some characters from wing commander that ingrained themselves into my child hood. Especially Hobes. I would nominate Hobes for puting a face on an alien enemy, and teaching me that not everything is black and white.
Because everything needs a wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralgha_nar_Hhallas

 

[poleboy]

Did you throw samus out because of a gameplay feature?

Samus has more character then many action game heroes, and if you wanted a role model, she's probably the best one in the genre.

Submitted for your consideration, Samus hunts down pirates. Space Pirates. They attempt to use parasitic life forms to take over the universe (OF COURSE!!), and then she goes to their home planet to eradicate them, and she finds a larva, and immediately becomes attatched to it. She can't bring herself to destroy it, and delivers it to scientists for study.

The metroid gets stolen, and then Samus goes out to rescue it. In the end of that adventure, it ends up saving her, and then is destroyed. Samus takes out revenge on the motherbrain for destroying her, for lack of a better word, child, and then flees the exploding planet.

Samus is a decent rolemodel when it comes to video game characters, but you have to look past the morphball.

I didn't think too much about it, honestly. The image of someone trying to morphball in real life just struck me as kinda funny. While I don't think Samus is a bad role model, she has next to no personality, kinda like Freeman. They're both more player avatars than actual characters. They have very little depth within the frames of the game. I know there are books and other background materials detailing these things, but most people will never read that.

@Cyborg-Incognito:
While CJ has some good traits, he's also more than willing to engage in crime just for the heck of it. I liked the character, but a good guy? Hardly. I realize the cops are corrupt and such, but still... that doesn't really excuse most of his behavior.