Romantic Advice Required

[Patrick Hayes]

So, here I sit, alone in the dark like a lot of us do. I'm not really sure how to start this, but then I don't think any of us really know how.

Recently, I made contact with a girl. Let's call her "Roose." Not a very feminine name, but whatever. Anyway. I never -met- her per se, but it was more or less a Facebook thing. Already some of you are moaning. It's cool, it's kind of lame to me too. Thing is, she's a local here in my town so it's not like it was a long distance thing. In any case, I met her yesterday and we got to talking. Dammit if she didn't talk nerdy to me. Seriously, I was smitten as (four letter word of your choice.) She came off as educated, knowledgeable and you know what was the BEST part? She knew about Dwarf Fortress. DWARF. FUCKING. FORTRESS. AND BOATMURDERED. Holy shit, I thought. She is...frankly fantastic!

So, today rolled around and we got to talking again. She told me more about herself. Turns out she's really into female empowerment. Not that that's a bad thing, god no! I liked that. Because of this conversation, I got to liking her more because we were able to segway in and out of a conversation waxing both political and scientific, then off to pop culture and just plain ol' weird. I felt good. Then, I did it.

I asked her out.

That opened a can of worms. See, she was flattered. But she said her heart belonged to a guy in Italy. Despite this, I told her straight up that I wasn't looking for a friend. She was cool, true that. But I have a lot of cool friends, friends that game, laugh and cry right along with me. I wanted to be someone's boyfriend. Roose's specifically. So, she told me she wasn't interested. I was okay with that.

This is where I question my character.

I told her that if we were going to stay in contact, i'm not going to be satisfied with a friendship. I told her that I would ask her out, I would flirt and I would persist because I wanted her. I understand that makes me seem like kind of a jerk. You guys might be right about that, but I knew how I felt. We didn't argue, there was no emotional pleading, nothing like that. In the end, I told her that I know how she felt, I know she wanted her boundaries respected but I know what I wanted. So, I said "Look, Roose. I already told you. I like you. I don't want a friend." She said "You should act like an adult and respect a person when she says she's not interested." I said "I am acting like an adult because i'm telling you that this is what you can expect. I'm not going to lie and say i'll be happy with friendship, and i'm not going to stop pursuing a romantic interest because it's what I want. So, if you want no part of it, just un-friend me and that will be the end of it." Saying that, I realized that I was going to lose some of the best conversation I had with a girl. But dammit, I wouldn't settle for just being a friend.

So, we stopped being friends.

Now, granted I could've played it smooth. Since i'm local, I could've just stayed friends and tried to get closer. But that would be lying. I didn't want to earn her affection through deception. I wanted to earn it like a man, so I was straight-forward...very Northern, if you like Game of Thrones (lol, Roose.)

So, I want to know. Am I a bad person for treating this situation this way? Was it wrong for me to keep trying, knowing that I was going to irk her and fail anyway? Am I an ugly person for caring only how I felt, or what I wanted? Please, this is an open thread. Speak your mind, say what you will. I will hold no grudge, I won't ***** and spit at anyone. I just want to see where I stand.

 

[Frezzato]

Goddamn if this isn't the most stand-up, be-a-man type post I've read on here.

Listen, you knew what you wanted, you were forthcoming about it (no bullshit, no games), and you said your peace. Sure, she was a woman of her word as well since she broke off contact, but it sounds like you two ended things on the right terms, which is to say, straightforward and according to your character. Who knows what will happen later on down the line between her and her betrothed? The future isn't set in stone. Should something happen to the guy between them, well that's where Patrick Hayes steps in. Don't question your character. It sounds like you're one of the few among us today who was raised right. And no, I don't count myself among the 'right' ones

You two were both honest about what you wanted. You have no idea just how unusual that is today.

 

[Phasmal]

No, you're right to not talk to her any more.
Congratulations on taking `No` for an answer. It's a good thing.
I think you guys are better off not talking if she's not interested in you and you aren't okay with just friendship.

 

[Jux]

You did the right thing, kudos on you man. You're honest enough with yourself to see what would have happened, and you were honest with her with how you felt. That's pretty much integrity in action.

 

[Miyenne]

That's beautiful.

You totally did the right thing. You know what you want, you spelled it out plainly, and you aren't going to settle. You did respect her boundaries, you said if you can't date her you don't want to bother, because situations like that really do suck if someone's hanging on and hoping.

She just totally lost out. I'm charmed myself, a man so honest and firm in what he wants.

 

[Patrick Hayes]

Reading these posts of yours does make me feel better. To be truthful, it took a long time to get myself to the point of being as forward as I am in a romantic situation. I'm not going to burst into a "poo poo pity me" post. The fact of the matter is I've tried to court women in many ways. I tried being a friend, I tried being a jerk. I played those games and found that I am not suited for that sort of chicanery. As you guys have said being a friend with hopes of romance is pointless, an exercise in mental masochism. As a friend, I found myself stepped on often or stepped over, watching the woman I want...want for someone else. I won't lie. I used to feel entitled to love and lust. Like, i'm the nice one. Why not give me a try? It was as if I saw my faux kindness as an investment. They would break up, I would be there to pick up pieces. They wanted advice, I would give it. Eventually, I stepped back and re-evaluated my methods and realized that it's not me that needs to invest anything. A woman has to invest herself in you. The way I approached things was a sort of passive aggression, expecting things that frankly I should not expect. That took me the better part of a decade to figure out.

I think that at this point it's relevant to state how many women I've slept with. Exactly seven...eight if you count a girl I knew for five days and made out with (didn't try to engage her in sex. She was the loveliest girl I ever got to kiss, so I wanted to try and be a gentleman. Guess how that turned out. Granted she was 19 and girls at that age are pretty fickle.) Nine if you count that really pretty girl with the bob haircut that engaged me in mutual masturbation. I myself am 27 at the time of this, and the longest relationship I've had lasted...I think...two-five months. That's a liberal estimate. I hesitate to go into detail about those trysts, but suffice to say i'm not lucky in love. I'm been alone now for two years. Five of those were one night stands. I know a few reasons why i'm unlucky so the situation doesn't require introspective. I guess now this thread has gone from advice to personal. I apologize in advance.

Anyway. Next came the stage where I tried acting alpha. Oh man how I hate myself for going through that. I tried having swagger, tried being a cock of the walk. That -never- worked. I usually pissed a girl off (flames I had no problem with fanning) or got laughed at because clearly I'm not made of meat. As a result, I only became that much more cynical. I started hating women. Like -hating- them. I was so petty. Still might have twinges of it. Old habits die hard. At that point in my life, I thought of women as nothing but whores and sluts, looking for money or good sex or looks. That...that was unfair. Completely. Upon introspection, I realized that I set the bar way high up. I hate using a scale, but for the sake of reference and ease of use, I placed the metaphorical bar at women in the 8-10 range. Looks are figurative, everyone is different. That's why a scale really don't work. What I see as beautiful may not be what you see, blah blah. Back to story. I realized that I wanted looks, not love. Really, I wanted both but physically I just had to have what I felt at the time was beautiful and hope love came from it. In short, I was being a superficial fuck face who had no business being with anyone.

Then came the stage that, to me, resulted in a breakthrough. I call it "Fucking Crazy." I was desperate. I wanted love, felt that I needed it. I would see women only as love interests, not friends. I wouldn't talk to women I thought were ugly, and tried to be someone I wasn't when pretty women were around. When a girl showed interest, I let myself go into overdrive. Either I tried to be too conservative (that 19 year old from earlier was that particular attempt) or too balls-to-the-wall (that girl with the bob haircut? After the night we jerked and engaged in frottage with each other, I invited her back over and got too pushy. Needless to say, that pretty young woman dropped me like a hot rock. Fuck I wish I had done things differently.) I let emotions dominate me. I became a slave to my heart as it were. I cried, I yelled, I was manipulative and cruel. I think the worst moment was when I was trying to date this Jew girl.

First, a little back story about the Jew girl. See, she was what I thought was pretty. Long, straight brown hair. Lovely pout, a slim figure and she seemed cool. I dunno if this is breaking forum rules, but at this time I was pretty heavy into marijuana. I used that as a device to associate with women and with her it hooked. I had a feeling this was going to end up as a disaster. The signs were everywhere. The first time we went out for a smoke ride I got lost on a backroad for thirty minutes, and then we ended up getting clipped by a fucking Camry. While the police report was being filed, I tried being bold and took her hand. That...did not go over well. We didn't make a scene, but she was clearly not into it. I tried the hand holding thing again at a movie. Same result. We were at my house, I tried holding her hand again and telling her how I felt. Same result. Eventually my mania manifested itself and...I said some terrible things. Nothing racist, nothing unforgivable. The things I said though were angry, hateful and woefully indicative of my mental state. In the end, I did something sneaky. I said "Okay. We'll be friends, but you owe me. A kiss is all I want." I got that kiss. Not to brag, but I'd like to think I'm a good kisser. Mostly lips, a little tongue and a good amount of pressure. You know, breaking and re-kissing, eyes shut and nostrils breathing hard.

After that...I let my anger boil and the next time she called me for a weed hookup (as a friend) I told her she could go fuck herself. I called her a ****, told her that I thought her breath smelled and generally said a lot of things I regret saying to that sweet girl. I made the time she spent in my college town miserable for the time she knew me. Gentlemen...ladies, I know some of you will hate me for this sort-of confession. Just so you know, my previous post holds true. I hold no grudge, and I will not spite you for having a mind of your own.

So, after that stage of my romantic misadventure passed, I once again looked inward. I came to a breakthrough. I came to understand that love is by all accounts incidental. It's not owed, it's never bought and cannot be made. It just happens. I realized how much of a fuck I was being. I was treating women as women and not like people. Men and women (at least to me) are one and the same. The cynical will point to studies and sciences and whatnot to argue against me. I base this on no science, no study that women and men are the same. In my opinion, the only thing that really separates us is the crude matter we are born into. We have the same desires, the same drive for existence, the same instinct. Most importantly...we are all human. I gave into my animal humanity, and did nothing for mental humanity. I let my animal nature (yes, humans are animals, lets keep God out of this one) do my romantic business while I let my human intellect fester into pessimism, using human rationalization to justify my very animal fear, hatred and prejudices instead of looking at my humanity and realizing that I was being consumed by the animal in all of us.

I had to change. I wanted to change. So, I did the one thing I never thought to do. I became friends with a woman. She is beautiful, but I told myself that she is a person and that I needed her friendship to break myself of this poison I took into myself. I needed to see her as a human and not a woman. I know she doesn't know it, but she helped me help myself. She helped me soften my perception, to look for things that I should have been seeing.

To this day I'm still dealing with my human animal. Recently, I tried to intersperse a relationship because I wanted the woman the guy had. They fought a lot. I saw the cuts on her face and his. I wanted to love her, and I hated him for hitting her. It was not my place to intercede, and because I wouldn't settle for friendship she thought that I thought her friendship wasn't worth keeping. No, it wasn't because it's not what I want and now she thinks i'm a douche and her hip hop boyfriend probably wants to deck me. They are both justified in these attitudes.

So, to conclude...I've given up any facade of courtship, any sort of games or mating rituals. I've wiped the slate and I'm going to do what I should have been doing...I think. I've decided that if I like a woman, I will be direct. I won't try to be friends, nor will I try to push myself onto a woman or shy too far. I will do what a person should do and make it clear that I like her. I want her. Should she hope for friendship when I show interest, I will be plain and let her know that it will not happen and if she isn't okay with it, I will walk away and bother her no more. I know that this might very well make me a very lonely man for a while. It -will- alienate a woman for which I have affection, even rapport as was the case with Roose. On the other hand, I will not view a woman as a thing to be had or as a woman to chase (try not to. It's still a struggle sometimes like I said.) Friendship unlike love is a conscious choice in my opinion. I won't lie. My best friend is a male, but a lot of good friends of mine are women and to them I say "You're a pal. Let's go kill d00dz and stab zombies in the face. Just be on my level and I'll gladly pick you up when a Hunter decides your face looks like a good meal."

I'm sorry if you end up hating me after this post. This is who I am. In the end, it's all I am. Just know that I'm glad you read my stupidly long soliloquy and hope I don't come off as pretentious or up my own ass.

 

[Miyenne]

Uh, dude. We're all assholes when it comes to love, we all do stupid as shit things we want to bury ourselves in the sand over when we look back on it. We try being who we're not to get what we think we want.

Congratulations, you're human. And you actually have the balls to admit it. Kudos.

Eventually you'll find someone who you don't have to pretend around, who takes your shit and gives it right back and you two still love each other for it.

You're only 27. Don't worry, don't rush.

Hell, I'm 30 and I thought I'd be married with kids now. I've been single for something like 8 years (I know, I know) and I still don't want kids.

You don't need someone else to complete yourself.

Also, take out the link identifying the guy, best not to put that in. Could get you banned.

 

[Lilani]

-snip-

I think you did the best you could have done in that situation. Neither of you were able or willing to give, so I think choosing to separate yourself from her was the most responsible action. Your only alternatives were to continue to try and ask her out, which would basically be harassment, or try to hang out with her as a friend which would only have been torturing yourself. I've seen other "friendzone" situations on these forums where a guy is enamored with a girl and isn't satisfied with friendship, and I always say the best course of action if you just can't handle it is separate yourself from the problem. And I still stand by that even after seeing your situation.

EDIT: Though I wouldn't completely give up on being friends first. Being friends is a great way to test the water, and sometimes you just happen to be friends for a while and realize you have stronger feelings. A lot of women are creeped out by the idea of a guy they barely have gotten a chance to know them asking them out. It's threatening because they don't know who they're dealing with, and puts a lot of pressure on the situation that can muddle how they read things. So take it slow, sometimes we need to be given a little time to mull things over. And if you can't even be friends for a bit, how do you expect to be her boyfriend?

 

[Mossberg Shotty]

Isn't that a shame? All that respect I had for you after the first post, gone in a puff of smoke. I'm at least glad that you ditched all those shitty tactics you were using on women, and you came to the startling realization that you can't abuse affection from someone.

Your methods are manipulative, and I'm glad most women have the common sense to steer clear of you. I would give you props for being so direct with "Roose", because you did the right thing there, but I'm too bust feeling sorry for all of your one night stands. I would usually do a point-by-point correcting all of the behaviors you mentioned, but you clearly already see how wrong they were.

I've had my own frustrations with women (one that happened just last night actually) but I've never sunk to your level of hatred for them, even if I did grow a bit resentful on occasion. Once you start to realize that the women you "befriend" don't owe you shit, and that you can't win their love through berating them, then you'll be all the better for it.

 

[Patrick Hayes]

Mossberg Shotty:

Least I ain't bullshitting you. Like I said. I don't judge what anyone says about me. Shit happens.

"Once you start to realize that the women you "befriend" don't owe you shit, and that you can't win their love through berating them, then you'll be all the better for it."

Well no fucking duh, chachi. I spent the better part of post telling you where I was wrong and how I poisoned myself with terrible thoughts. You re-iterating it doesn't drive the point home for something I figured out the hard way. Relationships are complicated, and i'm clearly still trying to fix myself. Sir, if me telling you how I embraced my fear and my hatred cannot explain my irrational behavior and neurosis, then i'm at a loss for words.

You say women had the common sense to steer clear. Well, that's a bit of a stretch. The longest relationship I had kind of...happened. Those were the happiest months I remember. I met her parents, met her friends, did things that I thought a good person should do. And of course, great sex. But, young and fickle. I suppose it's relevant to tell you that during this point in my relationship with her, I was a store clerk. Didn't really have much going for me. I knew I wasn't a catch or anything and I expected that maybe she'd change her mind about me. I remember telling her "You know...if you want to break up at any time, if this isn't working out, just tell me to my face. I don't need a reason or a story." That relationship ended badly because she burned me over a text as opposed to just telling me to my face. Now, I can predict what might be going through your head. I can presume that, based on your attitude towards me at the current time of this posting, you would reason that I, in your words, am 'manipulative' in my method and naturally that would transfer to the relationship. In my defense, I did everything I could to be a good boyfriend. I never yelled at her, never used her emotions against her, and certainly -never- hit her. You don't have to believe me. I don't expect you will.

Still, at least you can understand that i'm trying to fix it.

 

[Jux]

So, to conclude...I've given up any facade of courtship, any sort of games or mating rituals.

It sounds like you went through a few stages of growth man, and that's good. But I think you're selling yourself short if you stop here though. The direct approach is a good one, but you might be a bit on the rigid side. I don't know for sure, it's just something I'm picking up from your posts. Try and relax a bit. In dating, I find it hard to know if I like a girl before I ask her out. For me, if she appears interesting, and I find her attractive, I ask her out. First few dates I go through the 'do I like you?' process. That may not work for you the same way it works for me, but you get the idea right? It sounds like your current method is a good base, it just needs some tweaks, cause you sound a bit jaded.

You're honest man, I like that. We're not perfect, but we need to be honest enough with ourselves to see where we lack, and have the courage to change, cause change is hard, and its scary sometimes.

 

[ERaptor]

@Mossberg Shotty

Maybe im interpreting too much into your post, but arent you a bit hostile? From what i read, he went trough what i call "A**hole-Phases" (No offense there Pat, i went trough some of those tactics as well), but realised that some of them are wrong based on the feeling of the Person you're hitting on. In my Age-group, almost every Boy has the attitude, that if you pretend to be a jerk, Women will be all over you because youre playing hard to get, or because they think every Woman likes the Macho-attitude. And to be honest, they actually do work with a lot of Women i met and saw. And especially in a younger age, where Sex is something new and exciting, it's sometimes hard to resist the urge to pretend being someone you're actually not for a quick score. Im not reccomending, heck, even liking the attitude. Usually i scold People for being such Douchebags. But i know for sure that not too long ago, if i had the looks or the personality to be a Ladies-Man, i would probably have gone for it. I really respect The OT for reflecting on the stuff and going the right direction. He grows, he learns to be a better Person from what i read, and while it's certainly not worht a medal, since everyone should be like that, in the world of unfriendly Idiots we live in, it's atleast a damn good sight. I cant be proud of much meself, but also going trough the stuff and thus becoming at least A BIT of a better guy, gives me a good feeling as well.

Like stated ebfore, i actually tried pretending myself, to get a Girlfriend. It turned out horrible and i ended up looking at me and reflecting on what a bleeding Idiot i was for doing it. I'm twenty now, and i've decided to stop the Pretentious Stupdity myself, and waiting for the right Girl at the right moment. This will probably mean i will die alone, drowning in Porn but...i'd rather masturbate as myself and being honest, than having sex and being a someone i dont even want to be. So, *fistbumps* for the OT and i hope you could read all that even with my bad English.

 

[Patrick Hayes]

Well Mossberg, clearly you have something figured out that I haven't, which clearly entitles you to hostility. That, or you've gotten into character. One or the other.

If you were touched by my story, then sir I would recommend you stay away from Twilight because that particular love story of mine is boring as shit and if that managed to move you...I hate to imagine the squeal of delight when bishie Edward stares into your eyes, caressing your pink bits with his smoky, sexy gaze. The point is that the roughest part of any romantic relationship is starting it, or knowing when it started. Being in the relationship should be the easy part, and it was because I felt, at least for a while that thing so alien to me and I wanted more than anything to keep that feeling. Didn't happen, but I also brought it up to maybe instill into you that sure I make mistakes, but i'm not -incapable- of being a good man and a good person.

As for parallels, yes I think it is a favorable comparison because my dad hit my mom quite a bit. I saw that and stuff like that leaves an impression. Wait. I know what you're going to say. "Big deal." You're right. To me, it is a big deal. I'd never forgive myself if I became my dad. Yeah, you do know I was verbally abusive because I told you. I even told you some of the stuff I said. Are you like...a wizard armed with the "Derpidus Obvio" forbidden scroll? Holy shit, got a bad ass Logimancer right here.

As for the medal, nah nah. Clearly you deserve it more than I do. You keep it. Like I said. You've figured out something I haven't. You is a winrar. Salute.

-------------------------------

Jux:

You're right. I am pretty jaded. It's colored my outlook in that i'm not willing to play something that seems like an emotional game. I do understand that the reason people play that particular game is to gauge a person. Sort of like a buffer zone. I suppose it is relevant than to say that I choose the direct approach (blunt as it may be) because you know...I am well aware of my limited time on earth. I mean, I could get struck my lightning or a stray bullet or any number of things. A neurosis that perhaps is part of my ongoing mania and completely irrational. Whether I like to admit it or not, I know i'm still desperate somewhere inside my brain. That translates into impatience, and that killed one relationship for me. (The pretty woman with the bob hair cut.) It's something to work on. Though, it'll be hard to loosen up. You get me, right?

-------------------------------

ERaptor:

Holy hell that was hard to read. It's cool though, I combed through it. Yeah, fistbumps. Better to be alone than be with someone you want and can't have.

 

[Mossberg Shotty]

Well Mossberg, clearly you have something figured out that I haven't, which clearly entitles you to hostility. That, or you've gotten into character.

Not sure what you're referencing there, I only have one character. That would be 'me' if you're not keeping up. But that statement leads me to question: how many characters do you have? 'Cause that would explain a lot. Aside from that, I don't really see how I'm being hostile. If I'm not mistaken, you were the first to name-call. But my memory isn't what it used to be, I would have to confer with the scrolls to confirm that.

Ha, I'm reluctant to even touch on the second paragraph because all it did was make me laugh my ass off. I hope you realize that the entire statement about being "moved" by your story should be taken with a huge grain of salt, if it wasn't already obvious. But if I was going to compare your relationship skills to a book, it wouldn't be Twilight, I was thinking more along the lines of 'Fifty Shades of Grey'. And for the record I don't think you're "incapable" of being a decent person, you seem to have already made a bit of progress in some regards. I'm not trying to demonize you.

Wait. I know what you're going to say. "Big deal." You're right. To me, it is a big deal.

Big dealI'm not some kind of asshole, I wouldn't mock anyone's experience with domestic violence, especially since I know a few victims myself. But you somehow knew what I was going to say? Looks like I'm not the only one with powers of clairvoyance.

Thanks for declaring me "winrar" though. As I'm sure you know, your approval means everything to me.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

Well this thread went off the rails rather quickly, didn't it?



I think Ben Wyatt, of Parks and Rec, said it best: you can't dice up a relationship into its component parts and pick and choose the bits you want. Trying to do so is selfish. We aren't buffets. You either accept people whole, with all of their feelings and ambitions intact, or you don't. Trying to live in that in-between gray area isn't healthy.

Personally, I think you have to be a myopic, selfish monster to happily maintain a friendship when you know the other person wants something more. Having met several such "monsters" in my time, I'd say most of them were overwhelmingly toxic and negligent, leaving a wake of unhappy and resentful folks behind them.

In the end, there are no hard and fast rules for any human interaction other than "honesty" and "respect". Assuming none of their interactions were abusive or needlessly combative, I'd say the OP did his due diligence.

Also, I tend to pursue women exclusively through dating sites at this point. Better if everyone knows the deal up front than for one party or the other (let's be honest, nearly always the woman) to be operating under a mistaken assumption of platonic friendship.

 

[Patrick Hayes]

Well this thread went off the rails rather quickly, didn't it?

On a crazy train.

 

[endnuen]

So you let an apparently flippin' platinum mine slip ?
*slow clap*

Are you a bad person ? no.
Are you absolutely hopeless at courting? Maybe.

Women are fickle creatures and way more keen on observing signs than us simple thick males.
If you are giving off the right signals she will know, every single time, what your intentions are and will respond with signals of her own.

That direct approach you have adopted, good luck with it.

 

[Lilani]

Personally, I think you have to be a myopic, selfish monster to happily maintain a friendship when you know the other person wants something more. Having met several such "monsters" in my time, I'd say most of them were overwhelmingly toxic and negligent, leaving a wake of unhappy and resentful folks behind them.

I think this is a bit harsh, and completely disregards the person who wants a relationship's ability to make their own decisions. I had a friend who was flirting with me for a while, and I admit out of an ignorance as to what I should do about it I "led him on" for a while. But when I was finally able to find a time to let him down, he seemed to take it well enough. I mentioned I still wanted to be friends, and he never said anything to object to that. His general reaction was that he was glad it cleared up any awkwardness between us. I rarely see him IRL this time of year, but we're still friends on Facebook and nothing much has changed in the way we interact there.

If he continues to harbor feelings for me, he hasn't done anything to indicate so, so I don't see how it should be my fault if this is torturing him. If he's got a problem with staying friends, then he should say so and do something about it. I'm not clairvoyant. If he tells me everything is okay and he's behaving normally, forgive me if I ACTUALLY assume that everything is okay. I'm not going to insult his intelligence or feed my vanity by assuming he still has feelings for me that he is completely incapable of dealing with, and that I must sever all contact to end his agony which he isn't outwardly displaying in any way, shape, or form.

I'm certain there are monstrous ways of dealing with these people and leading them on, but I think saying that ALL people who maintain a friendship even knowing the other desires or desired a relationship are monsters and is an unhelpful generalization. If the person who has the feelings is allowing themselves to get led on even after they've gotten a definitive answer, then at least some of the "blame" is on them for not taking the hint and finding a way to deal with it. If they are really getting hurt by keeping the friendship alive, then they should muster up the courage and do it themselves. If you're in pain you shouldn't sit around waiting for somebody else to notice and deal with it. Do something about it yourself.

 

[Patrick Hayes]

So, to conclude...I've given up any facade of courtship, any sort of games or mating rituals.

Flirting isn't a mating ritual any more than sex is a tedious ordeal to get to an orgasm. If you don't enjoy courtship or flirting then fair enough, but describing them as a facade seems harsh, and "mating ritual" is quite close to crude.

Different approaches work for different people, but please don't insult a different way of doing things just because it doesn't work for you.

To retort, in nature...does not the peacock strut his plumage to convince the lady 'cock that he is in fact the most mactastic feather-daddy who struts the plains? Does not the Warbler sing and learn funky noises as a form of courtship? Just because they do it differently doesn't mean that our way is any different from theirs in intent, only performed differently. I suppose then, that the real difference (I can only speculate. I can't speak to animals...) is that when such things are being done, the female is well-aware that the male is laying down his mac. In a sense, it's direct. A male peacock doesn't bow up his ass-fro just to say "Hey...you wanna be friends?" Flirting is a mating ritual (I don't understand how that can be considered 'crude' because that is what it is,) and it's a human's way of strutting ass plumage. I suppose that in our particular species (i'm not saying females of other species don't do this) it goes both ways, as women and men can 'peacock' and pick up. I'm also not saying that animals don't develop friendship either. Our genetic cousins (chimps being one of them) form bonds with both male and females, as having such bonds enable a better survival rate on the whole as well as providing mental stimulation. They too flirt, and the intent is very well known from the get-go. Also, I understand what you meant by "Flirting isn't a mating ritual any more than sex is a tedious ordeal to get to an orgasm." I feel that's not really a fair analogy, as I personally don't think sex is tedious at all. I enjoy sex, but I don't enjoy unnecessary mind games. Either you want me or you don't. I'm okay with either result. Just don't expect friendship. We may have a lot in common, but that one thing we don't have in common is enough for me to say 'no.' Call it immature if you like, but it's more mature than clinging. No one likes a clingy person.

As far as insults go, I don't think I said anything about anyone other than myself when it came to courtship rituals. If it works for them, cool. It doesn't work for me. Being direct after seeing how we get along works for me because as I said before, I don't like seeing the person I want enamored with someone else. You could argue that I should be happy for the girl in question because she is happy. Altruistic as that is, if I sought her out for a relationship it's always going to be like that and i've learned to let go entirely because let's face it, when that dynamic is present I myself don't really get over it. Might be a result of a mental deficiency (obsession more than likely) but that keeps me on friendly terms with the girl if I treat her more as an acquaintance than a friend and no one gets stressed and we don't end up exchanging awkward glances in public places.

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To Lilani:

I'm happy for you in that you've managed to keep things amicable between your friend and yourself despite his feelings. However, I will put forth to you that it's easier to remain a friend over Facebook than it is to see someone you like face-to-face. Not that i'm saying that you two are incapable of having friendly interaction face to face, but in many cases friends on Facebook are very different people in person. I'm not saying you are wrong, or saying that there are ulterior motives. I don't even know how long you've known him, so really my speculation is only that. Speculation.

As you well know, i've already explained well and good that what you suggest (doing something about it) is what I have done. I cut the thread loose. I speculate that perhaps you've never had to really...I don't want to insult you, I don't...but maybe you haven't been led on like that ever. It's not monstrous to keep someone as a friend despite knowing his/her feelings, but it certainly does not absolve a person from emotional responsibility. I think a person should inquire to how a person feels about them. Do they still feel the way they do? If so, I think perhaps it's not a far stretch to think that most guy/girl friendships end there if such feelings are involved. That's not such a bad thing. It's freeing.