Rotten Tomatoes: a monument to all your sins

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Anachronism

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A somewhat unusual review here; not a review of a film or a game, but of review aggregator site Rotten Tomatoes. You all know what it is, and almost certainly use it. I use it quite often, since it's a really helpful archive of reviews and makes finding an individual critic's opinion on a film much easier than it might be otherwise.

And I don't like it.

I'm well aware of how convenient it is to have all the reviews in one place, but on balance, I think Rotten Tomatoes is detrimental to the industry and unhelpful to consumers. You may have noticed that, in my reviews, I do not assign scores. This is because I don't believe a complicated opinion about a film can be adequately expressed by an arbitrary numerical value. I might think a film a failure, and yet interesting enough to watch anyway, like Sucker Punch (but more on that later); or I might think a film technically superb, but so dull that that I can't in good conscience recommend it, like Citizen Kane (on a narrative level: plodding, pretentious, glacially paced even for the time, and tremendously hypocritical on Orson Welles' part. On a technical level, however, one of the most important films ever made). How am I to rate these films? I can't. Not accurately, anyway. Now, I have no problem with other critics assigning scores, because if you don't have time to read the whole review it can be helpful to be able to quickly see their opinion. The problem with Rotten Tomatoes is that it aggregates these scores and gives you a percentage of critics who enjoyed the film. This is a serious problem, as most people view the Tomatometer as a simple indicator of how good a film is; the higher the percentage, the better the film.



Lex says it better than I ever could. At a glance, you can tell that this idea is critically flawed. The recent Star Trek reboot has a 94% rating on Rotten Tomatoes, which most people would take to mean that the film is excellent. It's not. It's certainly not bad, but it's nothing more or less than a competent space opera. There's nothing remarkable at all about it, no ambition, no commentary on the human condition which used to be Star Trek's hallmark. District 9 has a 91% rating; according to the Tomatometer, Star Trek is better than District 9. Again, refer to the picture above. District 9 is better directed, has better action, more interesting characters, and there's a purpose to the whole thing sorely lacking from Star Trek.

Let's now look at Sucker Punch in reference to Star Trek. I honestly don't know if I enjoyed this film or not. It's certainly not lacking for flaws: the plot is nearly incomprehensible at times, the characters are two-dimensional at best, and while the fight sequences are very, very good, the amount of slow-motion used is just ridiculous. And yet, in spite of all this, I can't convince myself it's a bad film. There's creativity here, ambition, the desire to be great, sorely lacking from Star Trek, and as a result, while it might be a technically inferior film, I would much rather watch Sucker Punch again, simply because it's interesting. To me, an ambitious film that doesn't quite come together is far preferable to one that sets low standards for itself and succeeds according to those standards. Sucker Punch has a 22% rating on the Tomatometer, and as a result, most people are going to pass it by, when, flaws or no, it really ought to be seen.

And whom do I blame for the unhelpfulness of the aggregate score? The consumer. The person who isn't interested in finding out why a film is good, but simply wants a binary yes/no answer to the question of whether or not they should go and see it. It is because of this that film criticism, as journalism in its own right, is dying. Film criticism is not mere consumer advice, but should be an interesting read on its own merits, picking apart the film and revealing things that you might have missed otherwise. It can be entertaining as a piece of writing, rather than just useful advice; go and read some of Roger Ebert's reviews of [url"http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20000512/REVIEWS/5120301/1023"]bad[/url] films [http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19940722/REVIEWS/407220302/1023]. Many of them are hilarious, and considerably more entertaining than the film itself. People however, by and large, read film reviews as they would read a review for a vacuum cleaner: they simply want to know if it works or not. Rotten Tomatoes provides this. People assume that, if it has a high rating, it must be good, but as I hope to have demonstrated, this isn't necessarily true. Nor does it take into account films which might be guilty pleasures, such as G.I. Joe: by any reasonable standard, an awful film, but it's fun enough that it doesn't really matter.

So, I urge you, do not use the Tomatometer alone to judge if a film is good. Instead, go into the review archive, the thing Rotten Tomatoes does right, and read some actual reviews. Find a critic or two whose opinions you trust and agree with, and, when you're trying to decide whether to go and see a film, see what that critic thinks, not what the Tomatometer says.
 

thethingthatlurks

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*sigh* you argue that consumer ratings are merely opinions expressed in numbers, and then proceed to cite your own opinions regarding which movie is better. Do you see a problem with this?

Besides, if you enjoy a movie, the ratings should be of no concern to you, right?
 

Anachronism

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thethingthatlurks said:
*sigh* you argue that consumer ratings are merely opinions expressed in numbers, and then proceed to cite your own opinions regarding which movie is better. Do you see a problem with this?
No. To argue that people shouldn't give their opinion would be extremely stupid, and as such I didn't say that. Like I did say, I don't think a number can adequately convey my opinion of a film. Like I said, Citizen Kane is an excellent film, but I didn't enjoy it. G.I. Joe is an awful film, but I was entertained. What score do you suggest I give? Should the score reflect the quality of the film, or the quality of the experience? Either way, it's misleading and unhelpful to the consumer.
Besides, if you enjoy a movie, the ratings should be of no concern to you, right?
I'd argue that this is missing the point. People will often decide whether or not to see a film based on the ratings, and, as I said, I think Sucker Punch is far more worth seeing than Star Trek, even though, according to Rotten Tomatoes, the former is terrible while the latter is brilliant.

Also: don't patronise me. If you take issue with my points, by all means do so, but don't begin your post with "*sigh*", as if my opinions are worthless.
 

Jordi

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So what you are saying (multiple times, in different wordings) is that your taste and opinions differ from those of other people? You disagree with the average rotten tomatoer that Star Trek is ever so slightly better than District 9 and much better than Sucker Punch. That is fine, but it is not a flaw in any system.

Furthermore, I think it is very odd that you place the blame of film criticism dying with the (nonexistent) consumer. I really don't understand that reasoning. If you must write for an audience (which is apparently the case, or you wouldn't think it was dying), then you must write what your audience wants. If the consumer isn't interested, that is your fault for not writing something that is interesting to them. Rotten Tomatoes provides what consumers want, and you just seem bitter about the fact that they don't want the same thing that you do.

Also, while I think that aggregated scores have some flaws, they are uniquely suited for quickly getting the opinion of a huge number of people. If you don't trust in one reviewer, this is actually a fairly good resource. If you are interested in more, then you can click through to the actual reviews. It seems like a perfect system where everyone can get exactly what they want to me.
 

thethingthatlurks

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Feb 16, 2010
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Anachronism said:
thethingthatlurks said:
*sigh* you argue that consumer ratings are merely opinions expressed in numbers, and then proceed to cite your own opinions regarding which movie is better. Do you see a problem with this?
No. To argue that people shouldn't give their opinion would be extremely stupid, and as such I didn't say that. Like I did say, I don't think a number can adequately convey my opinion of a film. Like I said, Citizen Kane is an excellent film, but I didn't enjoy it. G.I. Joe is an awful film, but I was entertained. What score do you suggest I give? Should the score reflect the quality of the film, or the quality of the experience? Either way, it's misleading and unhelpful to the consumer.
Besides, if you enjoy a movie, the ratings should be of no concern to you, right?
I'd argue that this is missing the point. People will often decide whether or not to see a film based on the ratings, and, as I said, I think Sucker Punch is far more worth seeing than Star Trek, even though, according to Rotten Tomatoes, the former is terrible while the latter is brilliant.

Also: don't patronise me. If you take issue with my points, by all means do so, but don't begin your post with "*sigh*", as if my opinions are worthless.
It's really simple, rate the film relative to the one you enjoy the most. You aren't a critic, nobody gives a toss about any sort of analysis you may or may not have written up. If you think Citizen Kane is a well made film that you happened to not enjoy very much, rate it above average, ~7-ish perhaps? What is the film you liked the most, and which one did you like the least? Those are your boundary values, 10 and 0 respectively. Rate everything accordingly. It's actually far more useful than a detailed critique, provided you state relative to what you rate.

Again, if you preferred Sucker Punch over Star Trek and somebody else thinks otherwise, ignore them! Those are merely opinions, and I would seriously discourage any sort of objective measurement of quality. Those never work out.
 

Anachronism

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thethingthatlurks said:
You aren't a critic, nobody gives a toss about any sort of analysis you may or may not have written up.
Thanks for the constructive criticism. I thought there was a reason the User Review section existed, but evidently not.
Jordi said:
If you must write for an audience (which is apparently the case, or you wouldn't think it was dying), then you must write what your audience wants. If the consumer isn't interested, that is your fault for not writing something that is interesting to them.
Good point. I guess I write what I would like to read, but I can't argue that not everyone would be interested in the same kind of stuff as me. Something to bear in mind for future reviews, I think.
Also, while I think that aggregated scores have some flaws, they are uniquely suited for quickly getting the opinion of a huge number of people.
This is true in theory, and if it worked out that way it would be ideal. As much as I hate to say it, this is something Metacritic actually does right, or at least better than RT, as it actually gives an average score. The Tomatometer is a measure of how many people enjoyed a film, not how good people thought it was; it could be that every critic thought the film was decent but not great, say 6/10, which would still get it 100%. There is an average score on RT, but it's in small text and somewhat dwarfed by the Tomatometer.
 

bsaxagent

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Sep 27, 2009
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I thoroughly enjoyed Star Trek, sorry you didn't. I have yet to see Sucker Punch, but you know? Like others have said, it's an opinion. You can enjoy the movies all you want, it's not like Rotten Tomatoes decides what you can and can't enjoy.
 

Marter

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Anachronism said:
I do not assign scores. This is because I don't believe a complicated opinion about a film can be adequately expressed by an arbitrary numerical value. I might think a film a failure, and yet interesting enough to watch anyway, like Sucker Punch (but more on that later); or I might think a film technically superb, but so dull that that I can't in good conscience recommend it, like Citizen Kane (on a narrative level: plodding, pretentious, glacially paced even for the time, and tremendously hypocritical on Orson Welles' part. On a technical level, however, one of the most important films ever made). How am I to rate these films? I can't. Not accurately, anyway. Now, I have no problem with other critics assigning scores, because if you don't have time to read the whole review it can be helpful to be able to quickly see their opinion. The problem with Rotten Tomatoes is that it aggregates these scores and gives you a percentage of critics who enjoyed the film.
But see, when looking at the tomatometer, there are only two scores that can be given, a pass (60% or greater), or a fail (50% or worse). Essentially what you can do is pick one or the other by asking yourself the question "Do I think people should see this?" You do that, and your arbitrary number system, and the Tomatometer have a good purpose. If, for example, 91% of critics believe that you should see District 9, then the Tomatometer represents that. That way you can assign a "pass" to both Citizen Kane and Sucker Punch, (even GI Joe if you want), because that shows that you view them as worth watching. Quality doesn't come from the Tomatometer.

That isn't their "score" for the film, IIRC, District 9's actually around 7.8/10. That's why Rotten Tomatoes shows both their Tomatometer and the average score. The former is more of a "you should/shouldn't see it", while the latter is more indicative of its quality.

At least, that's how I view it.
 

upgray3dd

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This is the classic problem with Rotten Tomatoes. Aggregate scores in general (and Rotten Tomatoes' in particular) are measures of appeal, while other reviews are measures of quality. Mundane films with universal appeal like Star Trek set the bar so high that it's impossible for better films to have higher scores.

Rotten Tomatoes also suffers from its dualistic review system. Niche films are reviewed poorly by mainstream critics, and its actual quality is obscured (I call this the Leslie Vernon effect). There are many amazing experiences behind those 50-75% reviews.

Aggregate sites are useful tools in principle, but Rotten Tomatoes' is very flawed. I think Metacritic has the right of it, aggregating review scores rather than yay or nay judgments.

Edit: the person above me said 90% of this. Listen to him. He is smart.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Sep 1, 2010
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I think sites like Rottentomatoes and Metacritic are fine if used properly. With Rottentomatoes, if a film gets under a 20%, then it's probably not worth seeing; if a film gets over a 80%, it's probably a movie I should check out if I didn't know of the movie or didn't have an interest in seeing it beforehand. Several movies are love/hate movies so you have to know going to a place like Rottentomatoes isn't going to help with you with a good percentage of movies no matter how they aggregate reviews. Game reviews are a lot different from movie reviews, you aren't going to go to IGN and see a high score while going to Gamespot to see a low score for the exact same game.

Like you said, it's a lot better to find a movie (or game) reviewer that you really see eye-to-eye with the vast majority of the time and go off their opinions more than any aggregate review site.

I actually hate everything that is Star Trek but because of its high score at Rottentomatoes, I checked out that new Star Trek movie and I really enjoyed it. Was it better than District 9? No, but I don't think anyone really goes uses Rottentomatoes to rank movies by the Tomatometer. Don't people use IMDB for that?

Lastly, many people probably don't even use movie reviews to decide whether or not to see a film. If people did, then movies like Transformers wouldn't rake in hundreds of millions of dollars. I would hypothesize that the movies that get lower Tomatometer scores actually bring in more money on average than movies with higher Tomatometer scores.
 

SL33TBL1ND

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I think the problem is a lot simpler, if you're reviewing films for the average consumer you should be basing the review on enjoyment, not technical ability. All that matters is, was the film enjoyable? How enjoyable was it? Once the consumer sees that, that's all they need to know.
 

Spencer Petersen

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I had an idea to make a Movie rating system where you base the overall quality of a movie based on multiple criteria and you are paired to your critics based on personal tastes.

Something like:
Entertainment Value: This is where your summer blockbusters and comedies can score high in lieu of other areas, its just how much did you laugh or sit on awe of what you were seeing.

Artistic Value: This is where indie hits and foreign films can shine. This is for movies that may lack in budget or entertainment value by being unique and captivating via dialogue or simple effects over special effects.

Technical Achievement: Simply put, how much did this movie raise the bar for special effects, animation, scene construction or other technical factors. Avatar would fit in a niche like this.

Storytelling: How effective did the movie express its themes and were those themes worth expressing. Satirical films and dramas fit here.

X-Factor: Any screwball things that raise/lower a movies value to the public and to the medium. Impressive scenes, memorable moments or priceless lines that elevate a film to the annals of history.

Each starts at 5, and you have to provide reasons for why it goes up or down. The meter should make full use of 1-10 and not be constrained to 7-10 like other meters.

I also had an idea for letting you build a movie watching profile by being presented with 2 movies and simply asked which you would rather watch. Critics build a profile too and you can see direct links to critics you share more movie interests with. Some people may like movies but not agree with Ebert most of the time, so the tools would let you find another critic you share movie likes and dislikes with and let you follow their reviews.
 

subtlefuge

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May 21, 2010
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I personally love RT. Aggregate scores are generally worthless, but as an index of quality reviewers and a springboard to film exploration it is second to none. Also, I tend to like the consensus for a quick snapshot of the most surprising aspect of the movie.
 

LostTimeLady

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I can see that enjoyment is a more subjective thing to quantify than objective things like good scripting and direction, the former being personal taste, the latter being qualities of film language that can be universally quantified. But currently, it's always the former that get's quantified.

It is a shame that because something got a low score because of it's 'marmite' appeal such as the case with Suckerpunch people won't see it, and it's a shame that people don't decide to be better informed than just look at the star rating that a film got but we can't really blame rotten tomatoes for that. (See Jimquisition this week, cos he basically was saying the same thing about Metacritic).
 

MetroidNut

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Sep 2, 2009
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I'm pretty fond of the system Rotten Tomatoes uses, myself - I treat its scores as the chance that I will enjoy the movie in question. Even if District 9 is better than Star Trek (though I love the latter, I haven't seen the former, so I'm not qualified to argue), my understanding is that it's significantly more of a cult film. IE, not everyone's going to enjoy it. Whereas Star Trek is the kind of film almost anyone would have fun watching.

If you treat an RT score as a definitive judgement of quality, the system doesn't work - but see it for what it's supposed to be, the percentage of reviewers who enjoyed the film, and it's an excellent indicator.