RTS Idea? -> Free-to-play

[BrotherRool]

So I'm wondering if this would work as a new type of RTS: No defined races, normal unit control, resource collecting, unit building. But each player takes turns one by one to select a number of units that they will be allowed to build in the match(and a fairly high number to allow flexible strategies) out of a large pool.

The main goal is to create a free-to-play RTS. I love Starcraft 2, but as an e-sport it's always going to struggle to grow at the same rate MOBA's do because it's not trivial for a curious fan to have a go at the game itself and the developer to still make money for it. Cosmetic items can't completely support Free-to-play (especially since unit appearance is a big deal in an RTS) but buying units with real money would upset the balance of a traditional RTS


There would still be a lot of strategic depth hopefully, because the manner and combination with which the players units would be a huge deal, and the advantages I see are:

*Brings back a lot of the on-the-spot thinking. A problem with SC2 is within a few months it becomes something of a solved game, with most pros knowing how to react to builds instead of figuring it out on the fly.
*Wide range of unit combinations increases creativity
*A lot of strategy in the picking and reacting to opponents picks
*The picks allow conversation for commentators during slow first few minutes
*Guarantees an unstable metagame and growth room, like LoL
*Picking helps alleviate any balance problems

EDIT: Added a line for clarity. You don't pick units to start with, but pick the units that you have the potential to make during the RTS game

 

[sextus the crazy]

So you're suggesting that instead of races, players pick of pool of units to use (like in competitive Pokemon)?
That sounds like it could be a cool concept. Honestly, I'd like to see different resource gathering units like in age of mythology (each races builders/gatherers played differently). Not to mention that having a metagame in competitive sports is pretty good.

 

[Pink Gregory]

So...a little bit like Total War on the 'pool of units' front, but those units including resource gatherers etc?

It'd need to be extremely well balanced or have compulsory classes of units to take (e.g. different resource gatherers) to remain unbroken; not to say that that couldn't happen.

 

[Smooth Operator]

I'm confused, do you want RTS or MOBA...

Because a F2P RTS similar to this already exists and it is called BattleForge, it is essentially card game crossed with RTS where your deck is the unit and building lineup, and you got the whole deck building and card trading stuff in place to make all sorts of combinations possible, and real money in made on card packs.
Also has a full campaign split into single player and 2 - 12 player co-op missions all doable in various difficulties, heck you can even solo them all if you feel extra Korean.

Sadly unlike the top 3 names in F2P they never got the big buzz to rake in the players so their game is slowly dwindling.

 

[BrotherRool]

So...a little bit like Total War on the 'pool of units' front, but those units including resource gatherers etc?

It'd need to be extremely well balanced or have compulsory classes of units to take (e.g. different resource gatherers) to remain unbroken; not to say that that couldn't happen.

I think it would actually be easier to balance, because unlike Total War, you'd pick the units you can make MOBA style (with bans, taking in turns, being able to see what the other is picking etc). So if something is unbalanced and your opponent is going for it you can deliberately pick a counter for it or ban key units to that strategy.

I'm confused, do you want RTS or MOBA...

Because a F2P RTS similar to this already exists and it is called BattleForge, it is essentially card game crossed with RTS where your deck is the unit and building lineup, and you got the whole deck building and card trading stuff in place to make all sorts of combinations possible, and real money in made on card packs.
Also has a full campaign split into single player and 2 - 12 player co-op missions all doable in various difficulties, heck you can even solo them all if you feel extra Korean.

Sadly unlike the top 3 names in F2P they never got the big buzz to rake in the players so their game is slowly dwindling.

RTS gameplay, MOBA picking system and the MOBA idea of having a roster of different units.

From that gameplay video BattleForge looks like almost exactly what I meant. It's a shame they decided to call it 'card based' because whenever I hear that in association with a game in an advert or something I lose interest (tend to assume it has undynamic play) whereas it turns out this is actually totally what I wanted.

It's such a shame this game isn't famous, I would love to see some competitive E-Sports around it, there's so much room for strategy and the free-to-play would let it grow.

I hope the game either becomes famous or it becomes a genre that other developers really take on. MOBA's are hot at the moment, maybe selling it as a MOBA/RTS hybrid good get more people looking into it

EDIT: Looking at some PVP maybe I'd prefer the gameplay a little more RTSy and a little less MOBAy maybe with buildings for unit production etc, but this looks like a really interesting gametype that more people need to know about

 

[Smooth Operator]

EDIT: Looking at some PVP maybe I'd prefer the gameplay a little more RTSy and a little less MOBAy maybe with buildings for unit production etc, but this looks like a really interesting gametype that more people need to know about

Well it wouldn't hurt to pick up on some of their ideas, but doing a straight MOBA at the moment seem pretty insane as there are about 100 already doing it better.

But they all do it in a very limited capacity running a tight formula where as BattleForge is actually a fully fleshed game even triple A RTS titles should learn from.
Main menu battle ground is briliant, deck building makes dynamic unit rosters, then there is trading and upgrading, all small units work in squads and all spawned units get assigned a group, spawn new units near a group and they automatically join, unique active and passive traits, single player, huge co-op missions, pvp, even randomly generated pve maps for top scores ... it's just a ton of little things that turn that old formula into a great new flavor.
Still it could borrow some more in the moment MOBA options, like weekly promotional units, hero units, quick fire matches, could even do pick on the spot matches and everyone gets only 3 units, just random things that keep people guessing and coming back for more excitement.

It does however need a significant marketing push because you can't entice people that aren't there, I did try to get some youtubers to spread the word but they really can't make time for every mad fan making requests.

 

[BrotherRool]

EDIT: Looking at some PVP maybe I'd prefer the gameplay a little more RTSy and a little less MOBAy maybe with buildings for unit production etc, but this looks like a really interesting gametype that more people need to know about

Well it wouldn't hurt to pick up on some of their ideas, but doing a straight MOBA at the moment seem pretty insane as there are about 100 already doing it better.

But they all do it in a very limited capacity running a tight formula where as BattleForge is actually a fully fleshed game even triple A RTS titles should learn from.
Main menu battle ground is briliant, deck building makes dynamic unit rosters, then there is trading and upgrading, all small units work in squads and all spawned units get assigned a group, spawn new units near a group and they automatically join, unique active and passive traits, single player, huge co-op missions, pvp, even randomly generated pve maps for top scores ... it's just a ton of little things that turn that old formula into a great new flavor.
Still it could borrow some more in the moment MOBA options, like weekly promotional units, hero units, quick fire matches, could even do pick on the spot matches and everyone gets only 3 units, just random things that keep people guessing and coming back for more excitement.

It does however need a significant marketing push because you can't entice people that aren't there, I did try to get some youtubers to spread the word but they really can't make time for every mad fan making requests.

I'm going to carry on watching it and maybe do my part to spread the word, because besides anything, mix and matchings units in an RTS looks as good as I hoped and they do a lot of smart things. But I sort of still long for a variation on that style of game with some heavier RTS elements, like base creation and tech trees because it would maybe make the strategy a little weightier (at the expense of pace though). I'm going to see if I can find a really turtly PvP game of Battleforge on Youtube, if you've got any recommendations for places to find youtube videos of it, I'd be grateful =D

 

[Rack]

Sounds awfully close to Pay to Win there. I mean LoL manages it without going over the line by having a large number of functionally similar units but as you've established the draw of that is substantially lessened in an RTS as opposed to a MOBA.

Also is the upfront cost really that big a deal for Starcraft? It's not exactly expensive in comparison to LoL and there is a demo after all. I suspect there's a different reason why it is not as popular.

 

[Faerillis]

End of Nations.
Pretty much what you're describing verbatim; if it ever actually releases.
You're Welcome.

 

[Fluffythepoo]

3 things first:

1. Starcraft 2 dominates esports. No other esport is close to having as many tournaments as it has. MOBAs are growing faster than Starcraft because Starcraft has already had such massive growth and now represents the majority of esports activity (its like saying WoW cant compete with SWTOR's faster subscription growth). No data supports the assertion that moba games are out-competing Starcraft.

2. MOBA is a sub-genre of RTS that emphasizes simplification of combat systems in order to increase the speed/action of gameplay. Theyre by definition simpler than an RTS and therefore more approachable than an RTS. So simplifying an RTS to compete with a simplified RTS would be redundant unless you were to say that the RTS genre itself is simply unsuitable for esports (which is not supported by data).

3. Every game becomes a solved game if it goes without being changed for an extended period of time.






That said the OPs idea seems interesting, though limiting production to only the few things you chose to make would seem like it would accomplish the same thing as resource collection/economy already does in RTS games.

IE: you see what you think your enemy is doing and you react by choosing to use your limited resources to make something to counter it. If you didnt choose the right thing to counter it then youve made the wrong choice and wont have the resources to counter them (because youve spent them on something else). This makes resources the limiting factor in ones ability to react to your opponent in RTS games as long as you remeber that the decision to build one thing with your resources means youve decided not to build something else with those resources.

This effectively the same thing as blatantly limiting build order by explicitly removing the choice to make the other units, except this offers the possibility for someone to recover from a mistake and offers more complex and engaging meta-gameplay.

In the OPs model you would choose to make the wrong thing and your production is limited now to only that thing (because other options have been completely removed) youve now lost the game. You picked the wrong thing. In a game like starcraft though theres the opportunity to change your build to react to your enemy in real time and possibly salvage your previous mistakes.

I can see the appeal in simplifying decision making, but by doing so youre removing the complexities that make RTS gaming so damn fun

 

[kwagamon]

I like the idea of an RTS where all players draft-pick from a finite pool of units very much. One question though:

Would you be able to also pick something an opponent has selected? I hope not, since at that point instead of an "any build can work" design you have a "find the best build before the next patch changes it" design. Basically, what I'm saying is that if I select (hypothetically) a fast-to-create, slow-working worker unit, my opponent should be "stuck" with the slow-to-create, fast-working worker unit.

Also, I can already kind of see how the backstory plays out. You and your opponent are fighting over a territory dispute and are calling in merc armies to establish dominance. Each unit is a service provided by a single mercenary contract, and it wouldn't be smart to hand out contracts to both sides of the conflict since then you'd be killing your own guys on the other side, so the draft phase represents what contracts you acquired that your opponent didn't.

 

[rasputin0009]

This sounds broken before it's even left the gate. You and your opponent's decisions before the game have already decided the outcome of the battle. Where's the fun in that?

There'd be no acting/reacting to the game. All you would be doing is building your predefined units hoping that they'll beat your opponent's predefined units without the possibility of changing said units/strategy. It would be just one long ass game of rock paper scissors. Ya, just imagine 2 guys playing a round of rock paper scissors in slow-motion.

 

[Nepukadnezzar]

I think that is a very fun idea

Let me translate it to League of Legends for my better understanding and correct me if I am wrong. I assume the combat is instanced.

The goal is to destroy a specific building (nuclear weapon facility / eternity gate / whatsoever)

Your Build/Deck/Unit selection defines how you play (Champion select)
I think it would be good if you have to choose a specific set of creatures, to make balancing easier, but not so specialised you can do nothing on your own. Titan units would be awesome at that. Now you have to play together.

Your Ressources are around the map. Like creeps, but immobile (Maybe it is food, then it can be mobile animals)
It would be pretty interesting where to put your base (at the frontline to the enemies for quick ressources, or at the back of your well protected "Whatsoever")

But please ... leave out hero units that can level up ... I hate those in RTS

The only problems I see are:
Balance
Maps
How long is such a game going to take? (seems pretty long to me)