Sarah Kerrigan. The Ultimate Mary Sue in the history of fiction. SPOILERS.

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Agema

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Samtemdo8 said:
That is quite a claim considering a lot of PC games in the good old days were lauded for thier story telling.

I mena Planescape Torment was a thing.
Yes, there's Planescape: Torment and a few others. And then you stop to think about... almost anything else.

A million narratively garbage FPSs, strategy games, or even the hundreds of RPGs and adventure games that have cut & pasted the most hackneyed high fantasy plots imaginable. I don't think it's necessarily that bad, you must understand, we're mostly playing them for gameplay: I couldn't care less that Return to Castle Wolfenstein barely has a plot when I'm busy shooting freakish Nazi supersoldiers.

Ah, RtCW... in gameplay terms, maybe the most satisfying FPS yet made. Sure, it wasn't original and it's not deep, but it was so technically polished. The simple circle-strafe tactic to scrub the end boss was maybe a little weak, mind.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Asita said:
Canadamus Prime said:
More or less, yeah.

So to that end I would ask, since I haven't played SCII, is the plot of the story distorted to force us to be invested in Kerrigan? Are all the other characters shoved to the side in favour of Kerrigan? 'Cause if not then she's not a Sue. She could still be poorly written however.
Eh...sorta yes, sorta no. Starting in a series of sidequests in Wings of Liberty, Kerrigan was presented as the most singularly important character in the galaxy (if not universe). Zeratul shows Raynor a possible future wherein the villain (Amon) is able to wipe out everyone because Kerrigan was killed in that timeline. And I don't mean that in the sense of "they needed to rally their forces", I mean that her existence is presented as the only possible point of failure for the villain. The overmind infesting her was recast from it creating an ultimate weapon to a desperate and heroic act of defiance against the true big bad of the franchise. In the final sidemission, we even have this spelled out to us by the villain himself. To quote: "Foolish, prideful children...There was one among you who could have jeopardized my great plan... but in your recklessness ? you mistook her for the true threat!" Ultimately this culminates in Legacy of the Void where she ascends to become Xel'Naga and defeat Amon.

It's a bit of a curveball, to say the least, when the games start telling you that the self-styled "queen ***** of the universe" is in actuality Space-Jesus who will save us all from destruction and eternal darkness, and that most of her bad things she did were really because the bad guy (Amon, not the Zerg unleashing her Id) was subtly influencing her behind the scenes.

On the other hand, however, if you take away the "Kerrigan our Messiah, who will be Xel'Naga" part, I'd say that she's at least a reasonably well realized character.
Well I do kinda see where people can get a "Mary Sue" impression from that. Wow that all sounds awful.
 

Hawki

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Canadamus Prime said:
Asita said:
Canadamus Prime said:
More or less, yeah.

So to that end I would ask, since I haven't played SCII, is the plot of the story distorted to force us to be invested in Kerrigan? Are all the other characters shoved to the side in favour of Kerrigan? 'Cause if not then she's not a Sue. She could still be poorly written however.
Eh...sorta yes, sorta no. Starting in a series of sidequests in Wings of Liberty, Kerrigan was presented as the most singularly important character in the galaxy (if not universe). Zeratul shows Raynor a possible future wherein the villain (Amon) is able to wipe out everyone because Kerrigan was killed in that timeline. And I don't mean that in the sense of "they needed to rally their forces", I mean that her existence is presented as the only possible point of failure for the villain. The overmind infesting her was recast from it creating an ultimate weapon to a desperate and heroic act of defiance against the true big bad of the franchise. In the final sidemission, we even have this spelled out to us by the villain himself. To quote: "Foolish, prideful children...There was one among you who could have jeopardized my great plan... but in your recklessness ? you mistook her for the true threat!" Ultimately this culminates in Legacy of the Void where she ascends to become Xel'Naga and defeat Amon.

It's a bit of a curveball, to say the least, when the games start telling you that the self-styled "queen ***** of the universe" is in actuality Space-Jesus who will save us all from destruction and eternal darkness, and that most of her bad things she did were really because the bad guy (Amon, not the Zerg unleashing her Id) was subtly influencing her behind the scenes.

On the other hand, however, if you take away the "Kerrigan our Messiah, who will be Xel'Naga" part, I'd say that she's at least a reasonably well realized character.
Well I do kinda see where people can get a "Mary Sue" impression from that. Wow that all sounds awful.
It sounds awful, until you actually stop and think.

If Kerrigan is a MS by the standards of the WoL vision, then she must be one by Brood War as well, because it's how the zerg work. If you cut off the head, the zerg will go feral unless controlled by another source. Kerrigan being dead allows Amon to take control of all of the zerg. In LotV, we see that Amon gets control of some of the zerg, while Kerrigan retains a large amount of control of the other half (don't know if it's 50/50, but you get the idea). In LotV itself, it's Artanis that's just as responsible for sealing Amon in the main arc, it's just Kerrigan that delivers the final blow, and even that's with the support of three forces at her back.

Second of all, the game never claims that all the bad stuff Kerrigan did was because of Amon. She outright refutes this in HotS. The only evidence for this is the confirmation that lingering influence from Amon started worming into her post-BW, and that resulted in a more fatalistic approach as she believed that the zerg were doomed, but nontheless wanted to recover the Keystone to give them the best chance possible.
 

Asita

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Hawki said:
Canadamus Prime said:
Asita said:
Canadamus Prime said:
More or less, yeah.

So to that end I would ask, since I haven't played SCII, is the plot of the story distorted to force us to be invested in Kerrigan? Are all the other characters shoved to the side in favour of Kerrigan? 'Cause if not then she's not a Sue. She could still be poorly written however.
Eh...sorta yes, sorta no. Starting in a series of sidequests in Wings of Liberty, Kerrigan was presented as the most singularly important character in the galaxy (if not universe). Zeratul shows Raynor a possible future wherein the villain (Amon) is able to wipe out everyone because Kerrigan was killed in that timeline. And I don't mean that in the sense of "they needed to rally their forces", I mean that her existence is presented as the only possible point of failure for the villain. The overmind infesting her was recast from it creating an ultimate weapon to a desperate and heroic act of defiance against the true big bad of the franchise. In the final sidemission, we even have this spelled out to us by the villain himself. To quote: "Foolish, prideful children...There was one among you who could have jeopardized my great plan... but in your recklessness ? you mistook her for the true threat!" Ultimately this culminates in Legacy of the Void where she ascends to become Xel'Naga and defeat Amon.

It's a bit of a curveball, to say the least, when the games start telling you that the self-styled "queen ***** of the universe" is in actuality Space-Jesus who will save us all from destruction and eternal darkness, and that most of her bad things she did were really because the bad guy (Amon, not the Zerg unleashing her Id) was subtly influencing her behind the scenes.

On the other hand, however, if you take away the "Kerrigan our Messiah, who will be Xel'Naga" part, I'd say that she's at least a reasonably well realized character.
Well I do kinda see where people can get a "Mary Sue" impression from that. Wow that all sounds awful.
It sounds awful, until you actually stop and think.

If Kerrigan is a MS by the standards of the WoL vision, then she must be one by Brood War as well, because it's how the zerg work. If you cut off the head, the zerg will go feral unless controlled by another source. Kerrigan being dead allows Amon to take control of all of the zerg. In LotV, we see that Amon gets control of some of the zerg, while Kerrigan retains a large amount of control of the other half (don't know if it's 50/50, but you get the idea). In LotV itself, it's Artanis that's just as responsible for sealing Amon in the main arc, it's just Kerrigan that delivers the final blow, and even that's with the support of three forces at her back.

Second of all, the game never claims that all the bad stuff Kerrigan did was because of Amon. She outright refutes this in HotS. The only evidence for this is the confirmation that lingering influence from Amon started worming into her post-BW, and that resulted in a more fatalistic approach as she believed that the zerg were doomed, but nontheless wanted to recover the Keystone to give them the best chance possible.

Eh, again, yes and no. Towards the former point it's worth noting that A) Brood War hadn't started on the path wherein Kerrigan was the lynchpin, B) Amon had explicitly arranged for Kerrigan's death after she was de-infested, suggesting that she was a threat outside of the Swarm, and C) in the final act of LotV, it was revealed that Kerrigan was important because she was the only one who could become Xel'Naga. And I quote: "The Cycle must not be broken. The merging of purity of essence and purity of form must continue. You, the one called Kerrigan, can merge with my essence. Now, fulfill your destiny. Ascend as Xel'Naga. Continue the Infinite Cycle." "Only a Xel'Naga can defeat the Fallen One."


As to Amon's influence on Kerrigan: Granted it doesn't say it in as many words. On the other hand, we also have a very interesting contrast between the Queen of Blades through Wings of Liberty and the re-infested "Primal" Queen of Blades starting in Heart of the Swarm. HotS Kerrigan is ruthless, but her first infestation is almost gleefully cruel and genocidal. Even the simple remorse for her actions starting in HotS are difficult to reconcile with her prior characterization without some external influence on her personality.

This influence is also hinted during the final mission of Wings of Liberty, as you occasionally get messages of encouragement from "Sarah" Kerrigan that are at odds with those of the Queen of Blades. You get back to back messages where the Queen of Blades threatens you, saying "You will pay for your treachery" followed by Sarah Kerrigan begging you "Don't give up!" And while she said that Amon never controlled her, she admits to feeling his residual influence, concluding that Amon must have been killed before she was infested. Ie, he didn't directly command her like he did the Overmind, but he still influenced the first Queen of Blades. The differences between the two incarnations ("Worst mass murderer in history" vs anti-hero) thus reflect on Amon's influence. Put a different way: The Queen of Blades up to the end of Wings of Liberty reflects her under Amon's influence. The Primal Queen of Blades starting in Heart of the Swarm is her without Amon's influence. And the latter makes it clear that the former repulses her, so that's not an insignificant difference.

With that said, I would like to reemphasize that I like Kerrigan as a character. By my own admission I'm a sucker for stories about fallen and redeemed heroes and Kerrigan's story incorporates both reasonably well. However, I do think they went a bit heavy handed on the messianic angle.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Jun 17, 2009
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Hawki said:
Canadamus Prime said:
Asita said:
Canadamus Prime said:
More or less, yeah.

So to that end I would ask, since I haven't played SCII, is the plot of the story distorted to force us to be invested in Kerrigan? Are all the other characters shoved to the side in favour of Kerrigan? 'Cause if not then she's not a Sue. She could still be poorly written however.
Eh...sorta yes, sorta no. Starting in a series of sidequests in Wings of Liberty, Kerrigan was presented as the most singularly important character in the galaxy (if not universe). Zeratul shows Raynor a possible future wherein the villain (Amon) is able to wipe out everyone because Kerrigan was killed in that timeline. And I don't mean that in the sense of "they needed to rally their forces", I mean that her existence is presented as the only possible point of failure for the villain. The overmind infesting her was recast from it creating an ultimate weapon to a desperate and heroic act of defiance against the true big bad of the franchise. In the final sidemission, we even have this spelled out to us by the villain himself. To quote: "Foolish, prideful children...There was one among you who could have jeopardized my great plan... but in your recklessness ? you mistook her for the true threat!" Ultimately this culminates in Legacy of the Void where she ascends to become Xel'Naga and defeat Amon.

It's a bit of a curveball, to say the least, when the games start telling you that the self-styled "queen ***** of the universe" is in actuality Space-Jesus who will save us all from destruction and eternal darkness, and that most of her bad things she did were really because the bad guy (Amon, not the Zerg unleashing her Id) was subtly influencing her behind the scenes.

On the other hand, however, if you take away the "Kerrigan our Messiah, who will be Xel'Naga" part, I'd say that she's at least a reasonably well realized character.
Well I do kinda see where people can get a "Mary Sue" impression from that. Wow that all sounds awful.
It sounds awful, until you actually stop and think.

If Kerrigan is a MS by the standards of the WoL vision, then she must be one by Brood War as well, because it's how the zerg work. If you cut off the head, the zerg will go feral unless controlled by another source. Kerrigan being dead allows Amon to take control of all of the zerg. In LotV, we see that Amon gets control of some of the zerg, while Kerrigan retains a large amount of control of the other half (don't know if it's 50/50, but you get the idea). In LotV itself, it's Artanis that's just as responsible for sealing Amon in the main arc, it's just Kerrigan that delivers the final blow, and even that's with the support of three forces at her back.

Second of all, the game never claims that all the bad stuff Kerrigan did was because of Amon. She outright refutes this in HotS. The only evidence for this is the confirmation that lingering influence from Amon started worming into her post-BW, and that resulted in a more fatalistic approach as she believed that the zerg were doomed, but nontheless wanted to recover the Keystone to give them the best chance possible.
Ok I've not played the game (as I stated before) so I have no idea what an "MS" is. It still sounds to me like they ruined her character because I liked her as a cunning ruthless villain like she was at the end of BW.
 

CaitSeith

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Canadamus Prime said:
Ok I've not played the game (as I stated before) so I have no idea what an "MS" is. It still sounds to me like they ruined her character because I liked her as a cunning ruthless villain like she was at the end of BW.
Err... Mary Sue. :)

Now that's a pretty lousy redeemed villain arc to say the least. I completed Starcraft 1, and most of Blood War (I stopped in the mission where Kerrigan betrays everyone). I didn't finish Starcraft 2, but with that heel-face turn, I'm almost glad I didn't.
 

Canadamus Prime

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CaitSeith said:
Canadamus Prime said:
Ok I've not played the game (as I stated before) so I have no idea what an "MS" is. It still sounds to me like they ruined her character because I liked her as a cunning ruthless villain like she was at the end of BW.
Err... Mary Sue. :)

Now that's a pretty lousy redeemed villain arc to say the least. I completed Starcraft 1, and most of Blood War (I stopped in the mission where Kerrigan betrays everyone). I didn't finish Starcraft 2, but with that heel-face turn, I'm almost glad I didn't.
Oh duh, how stupid of me. *facepalm*

I'm all for a redeemed villain, but it sure doesn't sound like it was handled very well; but I've not played the game so I'm just going by the descriptions I'm getting here.