Agreed. Seeing bandits walk around in the most luxurious and rare kinds of armour is just...weird, but it's alright if they upgrade a bit from simple knife wielding cutthroats to organised, sword-wielding road gangs.Lukeman1884 said:
Scaling monsters - Boon or Bane?
- Thread starter Istanbul
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Eh, I want to know WHY the goblin levels up with you at all.Istanbul said:
It's a goblin. It should just be a goblin.
Unless someone in game has been giving them equipment, or training, or feeding them mutagens, they shouldn't be scaling.
That's what I mean about logical scaling.
An RP reason why goblin Y is 3 levels higher than goblin X.
I would prefer the vast majority of goblins to be goblins, whilst because you have been razing goblin villages, the goblin king sends task forces to deal with you.
Or something like that ...
But the average goblin you run across shouldn't even be an inconvenience .. they ought to flee at the very sight of you.
I can totally relate to the desire for a narrative reason, and I've got one all ready for you: natural selection. The notion is that as an adventurer (in this particular example), you start out only able to beat up on the weakest goblins, so you do that and run like Benny Hill when you see the strong ones.
As you get stronger, you start running out of weak goblins (and the ones that are left stay the *ahem* out of your way), so you face stronger and stronger goblins because they're (A) mad at you for killing their weak kin, (B) the ones who are still strong enough to face you, and (C) getting desperate.
Even so, as in my previous post, they're still goblins. There's only so strong they can get, so while they can't completely get rid of you, they're going to bring their "A" game - which is to say, the strongest goblins - whenever you're in town in hopes that maybe you're worn down from fighting the basilisks next door, or on the off chance that they might win via attrition. Hey, maybe this is why you always seem to get into eighteen spudjillion random encounters whenever you're trying to get back to town to heal.
Does this have to be transparent to the player? Nah. They just need to know that goblins will be relevant all the way from level 1 to level 20, maybe even further.
As you get stronger, you start running out of weak goblins (and the ones that are left stay the *ahem* out of your way), so you face stronger and stronger goblins because they're (A) mad at you for killing their weak kin, (B) the ones who are still strong enough to face you, and (C) getting desperate.
Even so, as in my previous post, they're still goblins. There's only so strong they can get, so while they can't completely get rid of you, they're going to bring their "A" game - which is to say, the strongest goblins - whenever you're in town in hopes that maybe you're worn down from fighting the basilisks next door, or on the off chance that they might win via attrition. Hey, maybe this is why you always seem to get into eighteen spudjillion random encounters whenever you're trying to get back to town to heal.
Does this have to be transparent to the player? Nah. They just need to know that goblins will be relevant all the way from level 1 to level 20, maybe even further.
I think it's kind of a patch that deals with the problem of players just level grinding. If you think about it, how is level grinding any damn fun? So eliminating the benefits of it would be a good idea. I think eliminating levels altogether would be a better idea, but they don't seem to be ready or willing to do that. So scaling monsters is kind of like having one's cake and eating it too.
http://www.goblinscomic.com/Danceofmasks said:
That's why goblins level up...
As per the topic god please no don't make scaling enemies come back oblivion was such crap because of it. Case in point I had umbra at level 5 or so, I mean yeah I had a shit ton of potions but I mean really that should never happen.
Well, depending on the game, different ways of scaling can be effective, but if you're going to scale, at least spend some time to think about how you're gonna do it. Oblivion's way was flat-out retarded: it scaled every-fucking-thing, enemy levels as well as equipment. Mudcrabs all the way to level fifty, high-level magic gear on toothless bandits,... It didn't make any sense at all.
I like Istanbul's idea of soft scaling. Neverwinter Nights had an ok system too: it scaled earned exp, in correspondence to your current level. So if you're level 5 and you slay a level 10 monster, you get a huge wad of exp for it, but if you're level 10 and the monster's 5, you get practically nothing. The monster's level would never change, only the amount of xp you got from it. So it allows you to come back to a tough fight when you're stronger, but it also encourages seeking challenges that appear to be out of your league.
I like Istanbul's idea of soft scaling. Neverwinter Nights had an ok system too: it scaled earned exp, in correspondence to your current level. So if you're level 5 and you slay a level 10 monster, you get a huge wad of exp for it, but if you're level 10 and the monster's 5, you get practically nothing. The monster's level would never change, only the amount of xp you got from it. So it allows you to come back to a tough fight when you're stronger, but it also encourages seeking challenges that appear to be out of your league.
My first experience with scaling enemies was Baldur's Gate 2. The encounters, or spawn points, ramp u as you level. What was once a clay golem at lvl 8, is now a couple Adamantium golems at lvl 25. Vampires start appearing in Amn during the night too. "Bosses" remain the same.
For me that was the perfect experience...it provided you with the right amount of XP, the equipment you were likely to have was up to the task, and it was a challenge.
Other games...Oblivion being the glaring, GLARING one, not so much and I'd call it a bane.
For me that was the perfect experience...it provided you with the right amount of XP, the equipment you were likely to have was up to the task, and it was a challenge.
Other games...Oblivion being the glaring, GLARING one, not so much and I'd call it a bane.
I don't like the idea of level scaling at all. If you want to challenge the player, then just make different places the player can go to that have different difficulties, or just replace old enemies with new, more interesting ones. But it shouldn't be a case of "give them more HP, stronger attacks, go to town." I just don't find that fun.
The only game I've seen this in is Fallout 3, so I'm gonna say bane. At level 30 you randomly run into Giant Albino Radscorpians and those massive Super Mutants (who's name I forget) which take about two dozen shots from a Plasma Rifle. Yeah that isn't fun.
I think in an open-world game (or a game with an overworld like older rpgs) it's a mostly bad idea. Or at least some context to why the enemies are getting stronger. Like if in Oblivion, instead of it being bandits with varying armor, when you got stronger, you would face assassins or something.
Games like Dragon Age, I think make it work. Let's you do stuff in any order and (for the most part) didn't feel like getting stronger was pointless.
Games like Dragon Age, I think make it work. Let's you do stuff in any order and (for the most part) didn't feel like getting stronger was pointless.
Honestly, I see a need for it, but its one of my biggest pet peeves in some games. I understand the final boss and his minions getting more powerful, but some enemies shouldn't scale.
Worst Offender: Oblivion- I love Elder Scrolls, and I have no problem with the demons and enemy cultists scaling while I dick around. But the wolves. Wolves. WOLVES. My level 1 character with the default spell kills wolves easier than my level 26 character with more advanced magic. Have they become better equipped? Rigorous training? Preparing for me to get there? No. They're effing wolves.
I agree scaling enemies who will get better, or who may be of different skill levels, is a fine thing. I love it in Fallout with the higher equipped enemies, or with the enemies in the Oblivion Gates, because it makes sense with the amount of dicking around I've been doing.
But I hate the goddam wolves.
Worst Offender: Oblivion- I love Elder Scrolls, and I have no problem with the demons and enemy cultists scaling while I dick around. But the wolves. Wolves. WOLVES. My level 1 character with the default spell kills wolves easier than my level 26 character with more advanced magic. Have they become better equipped? Rigorous training? Preparing for me to get there? No. They're effing wolves.
I agree scaling enemies who will get better, or who may be of different skill levels, is a fine thing. I love it in Fallout with the higher equipped enemies, or with the enemies in the Oblivion Gates, because it makes sense with the amount of dicking around I've been doing.
But I hate the goddam wolves.
That's not scaling, though. In fact, that's the opposite of scaling. Scaling is when the monster's level rises to match your own, so that grinding is no guarantee of victory.number2301 said:
(Also, I sympathize. In my first Fallout 3 run, the game decided that a Giant Radscorpion lived RIGHT outside the Super Duper Mart. That was not much fun.)
