Scantily clad characters in gaming-General discussion READ OP BEFORE POSTING

[Erttheking]

Something that's been bouncing around my head for awhile. One of the most common criticisms against the gaming industry's treatment of women is how it has a bit of a track record of putting them in sexy impractical armor. I'd kind of like to talk about scantily clad characters and mainly, how they are misused, but also how they can be done right.

First and foremost, I find that the main reason women having armor to show off their jugs is annoying for one simple reason. Inconsistency. If a woman's armor is showing off her legs and midriff, you'd be hard pressed to find a male character wearing armor that is showing off his legs and midriff in the same game. Honestly, I think that the best route when designing armor for your characters would be to obtain some kind of internal consistency, otherwise the contrast sticks out like a sore thumb and it becomes annoying. There was an indie game released on Steam recently called Loren the Amazon Princess that actually looks like it's doing something like this. The women in the game look like this

Spoiler

http://www.lgdb.org/sites/default/files/node_images/4622/6323.jpeg

Now, that looks even less effective at protecting someone than the clothes I'm wearing right now. However, there are men in the game that look like this.

Spoiler

http://static.winterwolves.com/assets/lorenamazonprincess/images/selectclass.jpg

Both designs are pretty sexualized and designed to show off the wearer's body more than protect them. And I have to say it feels much more fair when both genders follow the same rules when it comes to wearing armor. Having one in full plate and the other in metal bikini's just feels lazy, not to mention it kind of smashes any internal consistency the game was going for and just sorta breaks its own rules.

Now, that's not to say that the only time a character can be scantily clad is when everyone is running around half naked. But it does get annoying when you're playing a game that's trying to ask you to take it seriously and you run into a female character wearing next to nothing for no inexplicable reason. I'd rather it fit with her character. She's a seductress, she's a prostitute, she's sexually liberated and out for a night on the town, or something else that is a part of who she is that would make it make sense that she was dressed like that. A couple of good examples off of the top of my head would be Bayoneta, who's outfit is pretty damn sexualized but I don't mind because it fits her personality, IE, how sexually dominate she is and her BDSM style attack patterns. Poison Ivy makes sense too considering her heavy emphasis on seducing men to do her bidding would logically lead to her showing off what she?s got. Samara from Mass Effect having her cleavage on display despite the fact that her personality is very monkish...just doesn?t make any sense.

Honestly, scantily dressed characters is like every other tool in fiction. You really should make it so that it fits into the game properly, otherwise why bother? You wouldn?t put guns in a Roman Empire era game because they don?t belong there (Unless you?re modding it and screwing around) likewise, I really feel like there shouldn?t just be scantily clad characters for the sake of scantily clad characters.

What?s your view on it? Do you agree with me? Disagree? If so why.

Also, please be civil about this. I think we can talk about this with a calm tone. Also please stay on topic, no "Why are we talking about this" comments.

 

[Redd the Sock]

I suppose I should preface this by saying I don't put much into the idea of games needing a sense of realism. I prefer things look stylish and interesting than worry about what would work. This applies to both the needlessly revealing, to anything with excessive spikes and horns that would at best be useless, and worst, be a hindrance to movement and a handhold to an enemy.

There's an element of assumption in what you are saying in how people should act that doesn't carry over into larger and alternative cultures. You have an attitude that people would only dress a certain way for pragmatic reasons, and that they share your cultural norms about dress. You are neither Samara, nor assari, so projecting your values into what you think she should be wearing doesn't quite work. It's a trope unto itself that characters prone to wear the revealing outfits come from a culture that didn't see nudity as a big deal, and get puzzled that everyone is telling them to cover up. Even without alternate or alien cultures, it's still projecting a sense of modesty into a character you have no idea if they share it. They don't have to be a slut, or a succubi to wear something revealing. They just might think the outfit makes them look good and run with it.

By that same token, forcing a cultural sense of modesty can come back to some unrealistic ideas. There's no reason Tarzan would be told he has to wear a loincloth by the apes or a lost tribe of jungle girls would need to cover their breasts at all, damaged clothing would not leave viable underwear, and the warrior in the chain mail bikini might go out as topless as Conan if she didn't have to wear it for the censors.

We can agree revealing outfits can be overdone, and there are ways to make unique outfits without using them, but modesty is a character trait you can't assume mirrors your own when determining if an outfit is inappropriate.

 

[Erttheking]

I suppose I should preface this by saying I don't put much into the idea of games needing a sense of realism. I prefer things look stylish and interesting than worry about what would work. This applies to both the needlessly revealing, to anything with excessive spikes and horns that would at best be useless, and worst, be a hindrance to movement and a handhold to an enemy.

There's an element of assumption in what you are saying in how people should act that doesn't carry over into larger and alternative cultures. You have an attitude that people would only dress a certain way for pragmatic reasons, and that they share your cultural norms about dress. You are neither Samara, nor assari, so projecting your values into what you think she should be wearing doesn't quite work. It's a trope unto itself that characters prone to wear the revealing outfits come from a culture that didn't see nudity as a big deal, and get puzzled that everyone is telling them to cover up. Even without alternate or alien cultures, it's still projecting a sense of modesty into a character you have no idea if they share it. They don't have to be a slut, or a succubi to wear something revealing. They just might think the outfit makes them look good and run with it.

By that same token, forcing a cultural sense of modesty can come back to some unrealistic ideas. There's no reason Tarzan would be told he has to wear a loincloth by the apes or a lost tribe of jungle girls would need to cover their breasts at all, damaged clothing would not leave viable underwear, and the warrior in the chain mail bikini might go out as topless as Conan if she didn't have to wear it for the censors.

We can agree revealing outfits can be overdone, and there are ways to make unique outfits without using them, but modesty is a character trait you can't assume mirrors your own when determining if an outfit is inappropriate.

Well then with those jungle girl and Tarzan examples it would make sense considering that it would fit the character. If it's a fantasy world where modesty isn't a big deal then it's fine so long as it maintain internal consistency. And if a person is just trying to look good, that would be part of their character that they wanted to look good and took steps to achieve those goals. I honestly think you and I are on the same page here. I'm not trying to slut sham. (May go back and edit the OP a little. Those conclusions I drew are a little limited now that I think about it).

Although, I'm not entirely sure I buy the concept of Samara being a person with no sense of modesty. I'm not 100% sure that Asari are like that, one even insults Miranda's catsuit by asking if she's done getting dressed. Not something a person from a society with no sense of modesty would do. Yeah, I know they have a stereotype around them of being like that, but I honestly think that in game it's supposed to be viewed as a stereotype, mainly because of their 300 year long puberty phase. We don't see that many older Asari being very sexual in personality, Matriarch Aetheyta's awesome Dirty Old Lady moments aside, and even then we don't see many running around in clothing anywhere as near revealing as Samara's. So I'm not sure if that defense holds up.

 

[Redd the Sock]

Well, I could rationalize things as Samara's a justicar and could have been subject to differing standards than the rest of the species, but I don't want to use it as a rationalization. I do want to bring it up as a point. We don't spend much time with the characters or the cultures we visit in fiction, and them assume we know a lot about them. Her outfit could be a part of the culture you didn't see much of, or she could have a rebellious streak. Even our own cultures have regional differences and people that buck the trends. Why would an alien one be different?

It's a bit of an excuse I know, but not a completely unreasonable one.

 

[Islandbuffilo]

I personally like my armor scantly clad, men and women, gives a primal feel to them, but I get your point I always felt the separate armor models were a wee bit of fan service, and that might be the case some times, but some women generally do like to look sexy in their armor. I haven't encountered this lately, its mainly really only a problem with Western rpgs, and f2p MMOs and even then its dying down a bit (people seem to have a problem with the breast slots, but it helps me identify weather or not the characters male or female.) Usually the armor is the same if both genders can wear it, and usually the scantly stuff is female only, not too much better but baby steps.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

There's an element of assumption in what you are saying in how people should act that doesn't carry over into larger and alternative cultures.

When it comes to what people were socially, I'd entirely agree with you. Different cultures, values and perspectives are sufficient explanation for why someone dresses in a particular way. I personally draw the line when it comes to personal protection.

Armor, you see, is ruthlessly pragmatic. Any human culture thus far recorded develops a system of armor that is suitable for the form of warfare they expect to meet. But for all the variations that you'll see through history, there are some common trends. First, there are two body parts people work very hard to protect: the head and the torso. This is notably because a penetrating strike to either is a sure a death sentence as anything you'll likely come across. Regardless of the material or quality of the armor or the period in which it is worn, if protection is worn it will attempt to cover these vital areas. The only examples I can even conjur where people are armored but leave these vitals unprotected were ritualistic or sporting events.

Armor like you tend to see in video games regularly leaves vast areas of the torso unprotected - places where a sword stroke will almost assuredly kill. More to the point, these are large enough targets that they would easily be hit with even the most rudimentary skill with arms. It bugs me because the armor is no longer a practical piece of equipment. It is slowing down the person, reducing their flexibility all while providing protection with flaws so glaring that you'd be better served with a decent shield and your birthday suit. That sort of garb annoys me precisely because it implies the character is an idiot far more concerned with how they appear than they are with maximizing the odds they live through a fight.

It's one of the things I appreciate about games like Dark Souls or Skyrim - skimpy armor provides scant protection and it covers just as much regardless of your character's gender.

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

I generally don't care all that much.

But that said, if I had to take a side, I'd probably be against scantily clad characters (both male and female). It has nothing to do with modesty or anything, and more with the fact that I just prefer characters to be in armor that actually protects them. It strikes me as particularly dumb to enter a combat zone with a plate bikini that protects none of the vital organs - especially when the game is trying to get me to believe that this person is both skilled and intelligent. They strike me more as suicidal and dumb, just asking to be eviscerated for the sake of "style."

 

[Requia]

Spoiler

http://static.winterwolves.com/assets/lorenamazonprincess/images/selectclass.jpg

I think you forgot your breastplate.

...

That thing right behind you on the wall?

...

I'd worry less about looking fat than getting run through with a sword...

 

[Voulan]

I agree with the OP that the number one thing that gets to me about female characters is when they are barely covered, and yet the male characters are completely practical and properly covered. I'm not a huge fan of both getting the same treatment though, unless it is a conscious art style. Otherwise, when your game is about combat and takes place on battlefields, I want to see fight-ready armour.

 

[Alhazred]

I'm all for armor being stylish and revealing, provided an excuse is given to why the characters choose to forgo the protection more modest armor provides.

Off the top of my head, here are some reasons why a fantasy character might wear revealing armor:

The character doesn't have the means to create and maintain a full suit of armor (a barbarian tribesman, for instance).

The character's religious beliefs cause them to reject armor, instead putting their faith in the faith in the God/s.

The character specialises in parrying and dodging attacks, forgoing armor for increased agility.

The character is so obscenely powerful that normal attacks simply cannot harm them; they can wear whatever they wish into battle.

 

[Muspelheim]

True, I think it's a rather good rule of thumb.

Is it a Conan the Barbarian-y sort of universe, where the realism is set rather low and armour isn't that important? By all means, go skimpy. Show off those idealised bodies. Not a problem, just do it well.

Is it a universe with some more emphasis on realism? Get them some sensible armour. All of them. No, I don't care how dexterous the elf-woman might be. Get them what makes sense for their role.

And at last, for every inch of velvet blue elf maiden skin you grant us, deduct the same amount of clothing for the blokes. It's just silly design, otherwise.

 

[The Madman]

Impractical clothing in games that otherwise expect me to take them seriously is one of my biggest peeves in gaming, regardless of gender or game quality. I love Mass Effect 2 for example, but the outfits for many of your companions are idiotic. You seriously expect me to believe Jack can survive in the vacuum of space or in a hostile alien environment with only a little plastic face mask and without a shirt? Really? REALLY? REALLY?

It's dumb and developers need to grow out of doing that in games. I don't need to be pandered to, if I want to see scantily clad women then I'd just use the internets, I don't need my videogames condescendingly trying to sneak in a peek of a digital nipple because apparently the games developers think I'm dumb enough that that's all it takes to entertain me.

 

[Ratty]

People are going to use sex to sell products as long as there are products to sell pretty much. There's no getting around this. If we can't have true fair equal representation for people in a game, at least have equal opportunity ogling and objectification![footnote]Though I think you could get away with having magic users wear less than melee fighters and still have it be internally consistent. If you're gonna do fan service go all out for both men and women. Straight and LGBT[/footnote]

Also funny thing about Loren the Amazon Princess. In order to get a rating from the ESRB and get on steam the game had to tone down that artwork by covering the characters up more. Though apparently you can unlock the original content by downloading the demo on the developer's website and setting it to "explicit mode".

It's one of the few games I've seen advertise the fact that it has LGBT options without just making everyone hot for the player character like Bioware did, Loren herself is a lesbian I've heard, and your role in the game is essentially as her sidekick. So if you pick a male player character I'm assuming any romance options with her are "closed off". I'm considering buying the game if/when it goes on a deep sale.

 

[Racecarlock]

Good points, but the industry knows about context in the same way a dog understands quantum physics. It seems like they're addicted to random explosions and child deaths for poignancy and random half naked girls everywhere. Hey, "It sells more games" goes random age demographic researcher B, so why not?

Side note. I really find it sad that people have to outright tell other people to read their whole posts right in the title. If you don't want to read, go on youtube. There's plenty of video content there.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

I could give a rip about realism or practicality in games unless it's really going for that aesthetic. As far as I'm concerned, it's a video game, if you wanna claim that a metal bikini offers as much protection as a full suit of plate mail because it's magical or made of mithril, then knock yourself out.

It only really bugs me in the sense that I do like the idea of games being more and more accepted as an entertainment medium that isn't just for younger folk, and when you see games that are very clearly going out of their way to put women in nothing but a few strips of fabric and give them all 38DD boobs and a 23'' waste, it makes it seem like they're all intended for 12-17 year old boys. It can sometimes be hard to convince people that the best story I've ever encountered in any medium was in a video game (Planescape: Torment) when they see Bayonetta, Dead or Alive, or Lara Croft.

Regardless, I don't care THAT much. As far as I'm concerned, game developers can make whatever the heck they want, and I'll decide if I want to buy it or not.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

What happened to the "simple" times where women wore leather string ropes on their nipples and nether regions and men looked liked a fucking castle without the ability to move?

Spoiler: real armour

OT: Seriously, I really don't care how people design their games and characters as long as there is some reason for it eg in universe choices, ecchi, etc. Although, that I'm glad more stuff like this and Free! has been popping up lately. So I'd have to say overall I agree.

I'd like to add that the last episode of the anime Hamatora was fabulous and as another off topic I'll leave this here.

Spoiler

 

[Mook_StyFawker]

To keep it simple, I usually let scantily clad outfits/armor/etc. in games on females slide so long as it doesn't cross into completely ridiculous territory. Games like TERA Online usually cross this line. My opinion on armor styles for males is pretty much the same.

 

[briankoontz]

I suppose I should preface this by saying I don't put much into the idea of games needing a sense of realism. I prefer things look stylish and interesting than worry about what would work. This applies to both the needlessly revealing, to anything with excessive spikes and horns that would at best be useless, and worst, be a hindrance to movement and a handhold to an enemy.

There's an element of assumption in what you are saying in how people should act that doesn't carry over into larger and alternative cultures. You have an attitude that people would only dress a certain way for pragmatic reasons, and that they share your cultural norms about dress. You are neither Samara, nor assari, so projecting your values into what you think she should be wearing doesn't quite work. It's a trope unto itself that characters prone to wear the revealing outfits come from a culture that didn't see nudity as a big deal, and get puzzled that everyone is telling them to cover up. Even without alternate or alien cultures, it's still projecting a sense of modesty into a character you have no idea if they share it. They don't have to be a slut, or a succubi to wear something revealing. They just might think the outfit makes them look good and run with it.

By that same token, forcing a cultural sense of modesty can come back to some unrealistic ideas. There's no reason Tarzan would be told he has to wear a loincloth by the apes or a lost tribe of jungle girls would need to cover their breasts at all, damaged clothing would not leave viable underwear, and the warrior in the chain mail bikini might go out as topless as Conan if she didn't have to wear it for the censors.

We can agree revealing outfits can be overdone, and there are ways to make unique outfits without using them, but modesty is a character trait you can't assume mirrors your own when determining if an outfit is inappropriate.

That's apologetics for the game industry.

Characters aren't scantily clad in video games because game developers have given deep thought to the cultures in which their characters live and have deemed them to be favoring of scantily clad dressing habits, they do so because they believe the games sell better to consumers. It's sheerly mercantile and has no artistic value, in 99.9% of real-world cases.

Consumers should be punishing the industry for this, by favoring serious games (games where the developers DO put thought and research into creating their worlds) over pandering games. When consumers don't, they are saying they can be pandered to, and in a very sad way. This harms the industry as a whole.

 

[Ieyke]

Actually, the caption for that image should read "Ability to move like a terrifying ninja Hulk included".
Space Marine Power Armor only makes them faster and more agile, with only a moderate reduction in flexibility.