School shootings in America (and a wee bit help with homework!)

[lordsandro]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roYJyhFskJk
Watch the clip.

 

[Daveman]

1) I didn't mean to say they weren't allowed to carry guns. I intended to say that in practice, they didn't routinely carry guns until sometime in the 90s.

2) I don't understand your point. Are you saying that just because being attacked on any given day is not an absolute certainty that you should never be prepared for it? Getting in a car wreck is not a certainty but people still wear their seatbelts. There are countless thousands of crimes committed every day. It sounds like you think its only something that happens to "someone else."

3) Because there are as few as 1.5 million soldiers in the US army. There are 300+ million citizens. Being outnumbered almost 300 to 1 are not great odds even for the US military. Also, that original 1.5 million number includes the Air Force and the Navy who are not ground troops and would have limited usefulness in that type of engagement. In addition, the military would probably loose a significant number of soldiers when it came time to pick sides.

On top of that, I highly doubt the US military would go rampaging through city streets with tanks and mortar fire and nukes, especially against its own citizens who may or may not be combatants. Furthermore, the sheer number of armed citizens could choke the military of supplies on their own turf. It would not be a pretty situation for them by any stretch of the imagination.

Also consider the fact that the US already defeated the vastly superior army of Great Brittan in 1776 AND the Confederate Army came extremely close to defeating the superior Union Army during the civil war.

The chances of a united armed rebellion being successful are a lot greater than you think. Even if they weren't, the deterrent factor of having to shoot and be shot by your own neighbors is enough to make tyranny very unlikely in the first place. Hopefully, that deterrent will be all we will ever need.

4) We are not going to get rid of the Constitution any sooner than you will get rid of the Magna Carta and return to a full blown Monarchy, disbanding Parlaiment. The Constitution can be amended through the proper channels if there is enough support in the country for it. Here's the thing: there is NOT enough support for amending the Constitution to take away this right. As a result, we have a lot of loud-mouths out there who want to IGNORE the supreme law of the land because they don't like it and don't have enough support to change it. But if they can be allowed to ignore that constitutional provision, what other constitutional provision can they ignore? Free speech? Privacy? They seem to be working on those two right now!

1) Er, they don't carry them routinely in like 99% of cases. Only for special operations. I have seen armed policemen once in London a little after the 7/7 bombings. All the help they gave was killing an innocent man who they thought was acting a bit suspicious and looked foreign.

2)A seatbelt isn't a weapon. It cannot be used in an agressive way. Guns aren't armour, they don't stop you getting killed. And I'm saying that someone coming round your house to kill you is incredibly unlikely (and obviously much less likely than being involved in a car accident). Imagine that in terms of insurance. How much would you pay monthly for that specific eventuality to be covered? Would you even bother? I doubt it. Guns are there purely to make some sad little people feel powerful.

3) If the military aren't likely to obey their orders then why do citizens even need to get involved? You say citizens can defend against a tyranny. But why do they need guns to do that? Isn't that the whole point of the democratic process? Do you have any faith in that at all? And you'll still claim that you have the greatest democracy in the world? No wonder nobody wants to vote in the US when apparently all you need to support your opinion is a gun.
And keeping a gun to protect against a tyrannical power taking over you is like getting a gun to prepare for the future zombie apocalypse. It is just a ridiculous statement in itself.

Also you seem to assume there is a significantly greater majority that were against the tyranny rather than, say, a 60-40 split.

4) The Magna carta is worthless now! I thought EVERYONE knew THAT! Wikipedia says "Many clauses were renewed throughout the Middle Ages, and continued to be renewed as late as the 18th century. By the second half of the 19th century, however, most clauses in their original form had been repealed from English law." There are three clauses still in use. THREE. Why not keep the good ideas of freedom and privacy and cut out the bullshit thats left? You can't possibly say that just because there are some good ideas you can't change some of the worse ones.

 

[kawligia]

Snip

1) You are missing the point. The point is that UK has a different culture than the US. What may or may not work there isn't the same as what will work here. The people are different, the environment is different, and the situation is different.

2) Again, you are missing the point. The point is that just because something has a small chance of happening, doesn't mean it will never happen. There are tens of thousands of crimes committed every single day. You are foolish to think that one will never happen to you just because the chances are relatively low on any one particular day. You CANNOT know when any tragedy will strike. That is exactly why people take precautions against them all the time (FOR EXAMPLE, like wearing seatbelts or condoms). I don't know why that concept is so difficult for you.

3) The democratic process is the first line of defense. With it, we hope to never need anything else. But one of the reasons it works is BECAUSE the citizens have the ability to back themselves up if it ever came down to it. People can talk and cast votes until they're blue in the face but if the government has all of the force and the people have none, then its only a matter of time before government stops listening.

Its like a security guard verses a police officer. When the cop tells you to do something, you damn well better do it because he can back himself up with force if he absolutely has to. But the security guard can't actually do ANYTHING to you other than call a real cop. Such little actual authority makes many people JUST BARELY comply with mall security. How many people would respect and obey mall security if they KNEW that he could not even call the police to back himself up? Some still would, but its only a matter of time before someone won't.

You could also compare it to bad parents and spoiled children. As soon as that kid learns that the parent won't actually DO anything when he disobeys the parent, he will stop caring what mommy and daddy say.

And yes, of course I have faith in our system as it stands NOW. But if we allow the government to strip away our ability to back up our voice, then NO, I will quickly lose faith in the actual effectiveness of our voice and with it, the system as a whole for the reasons I just explained.

I simply cannot fathom how you can be so naive about potential government oppression saying its as likely as zombies. Zombies don't exist but oppressive governments HAVE happened OVER and OVER AGAIN throughout recorded history. Do you really think YOU are so special that you can and will avoid what EVERYONE before you didn't by doing the exact same things they did? No offense, but I can only attribute this mindset to youth.

4) Once more, you are missing the point. The point was that the Constitution forms the basis of our entire society. We are not anymore likely to abandon that than you are to disband Parlaiment, give supreme authority back to the Monarch, and go back to the vassal system.

Our Constitution frequently frustrates your brand of European-style socialism. You fail to realize that it does so ON PURPOSE. Stop trying to convert us to your religio...I mean, your government...because we are not trying to convert you.

 

[Daveman]

snip

1)If I am missing any point it is because you haven't put it forward. "It just has a different culture" is not an argument. It's whining because you have got any factual basis to assert your opinion. As you like analogies so much I'll give you one. Just because a shirt's made of different fabric doesn't mean you can't put it in a washing machine.

2) No I'm not missing the point, I am saying that the chance is TINY and significantly less than any other examples you have come up with. Okay so "tens of thousands of crimes are committed every single day", how many of the type I BLOODY SPECIFIED!?!? Please read what I am writing, I take a lot of care with it. I am not of the opinion that attempted burglary is potentially a capital offence. By this I mean that unless you are defending someones actual life there is no need for lethal force and you are not entitled to shoot someone who breaks into your house. And you didn't answer my question about insurance, what would you pay to protect from that specific eventuality? I also pointed out that it is a worthless precaution. THOSE ARE MY POINTS. HEED THEM WELL.

3) Paragraph 1 - "People can talk and cast votes until they're blue in the face" and they will get a new government. Absolute power can't be gained overnight, it would take a gradual rise which could be stopped at any time. Any other ideas like this suggest some sort of conspiracy and even if you argue back I would say that you are a conspiracy theorist and your opinions do not represent that of the USA. So ha ha ha, I win XD.
Paragraph 2 - But anyone can call the police so you're saying security guards are all pointless and with no extra power than you or I. So why would any company hire security guards when normal people are equally effective? (I bet I missed the point there too, eh)
Paragraph 3 - pointless repetition
Paragraph 4 - good to know you have faith in a country that you say could turn its back on you at any moment. (Wow, these points are really hard to hit!)
Paragraph 5 - It was a joke, calm down. I'll tell you what. When my government that does have gun control suddenly becomes tyrannical and starts doing all sorts of naughty stuff, I will admit you were right (and possibly fly away to middle earth on the back of a dragon).
You say "oppressive governments HAVE happened OVER and OVER AGAIN throughout recorded history. Do you really think YOU are so special that you can and will avoid what EVERYONE before you didn't by doing the exact same things they did?"
I'm sorry, referring to (1). You said it's a different situation altogether and in saying that you deliberately aim to prevent any past events or correlation of facts from harming your argument. Yet you think it isn't fair to apply the same reasoning to my argument?
Well I'm gonna play the "different situation" card here too if you think it's fair to do so.

4) Seriously, "once more" eh. And a joke! Ha ha haa, imposing a brand of politics on people... Remember the cold war? What was all that about?

5) Can we start counting the number of points I miss? It's just that I'm starting to lose track.

 

[Necrophagist]

Students have almost no rights in public schools. In fact, it may be due to the entitlement of school kids that there is so much tension. Why not uniforms? What makes you think you have the RIGHT to wear what you want? What makes you think you have the RIGHT to leave campus whenever you want? What makes you think you have the RIGHT to say and do what you want in a public school?

I have a skewed view on the subject. I'm in the process of becoming a public school educator.

Ideas like your's are one's that are good if you want to turn kids to mature into cattle, and not free thinking liberated and enlightened adults.

... and there are kids in my school that don't know basic math or basic spelling and grammar. And these morons in my college take up space in classes that I could be taking and learning something from. Maybe the fault isn't in the education system but in people themselves. People are just stupid.

Quoted for comedic value.

Also, when a person leaves the state of nature they give up certain liberties in exchange for safety and the benefits of being a part of an ordered society. Social contract theory 101.

 

[Necrophagist]

FAIL! Gun control does little to curb gun violence - indeed, it creates a trend of not more gun violence, but more of it resulting in fatalities. Look up the numbers - gun control doesn't work.

No, that's balls, gun crime in the UK is tiny compared to america. The last time there was ANY gun related crime in my town was about 5 years ago when a jewelers was robbed with a REPLICA pistol. I myself have seen a real gun ONCE. I do live in a very safe area but in the nearest city there is no gun crime to be heard of either.

The UK is also about the size of my back yard.

Zing.

Seriously, perhaps gun control works in other, SMALLER countries, but the US is massive. How in the world do you contend to actually control guns in such a sprawling country, rather than just allowing criminals to have access to guns and not law-abiding citizens.

 

[Superbeast]

Seriously, perhaps gun control works in other, SMALLER countries, but the US is massive. How in the world do you contend to actually control guns in such a sprawling country, rather than just allowing criminals to have access to guns and not law-abiding citizens.

And, for the folks paying attention, this is one of the points of my argument.

You cannot deny (though we're trying hard in this thread) that gun control curbs violence. My evidence? Pretty much every other Western, developed country has strict gun control laws, and all these countries have significantly less gun crime even on a per-capita basis. This may be just corellation instead of causation, but anyone living in these countries will call it causation (since if you can't get a gun easily, and can be arrested just for owning one, it's far harder to have and conceal one from the authorities - who take guncrime seriously indeed; and most countries are suffering/beggining to suffer from similar gang cultures popping up and glorifiying violence).

However, I do like to go back to the point (as highlighted by my quote) that I don't think having this level of regulation in the USA is practical because 1) there's too many in circulation (amnesties are unlikely to remove all of them, since some citizens are obsessed about their right to own a handgun - remember I've no problem with rifles and shotguns), the borders are virtually unguarded (given the number of people that cross the Mexican border successfully it's frightening to think how many firearms could be getting into the country) and it would appear (at least based on the media representiations of your country) that the police force is inadequately equipped/trained for tackling these kinds of problems.

My point is that controlling handguns, automatics and all that kind of stuff *would* reduce shootings and other armed crimes in the USA, provided it could actually be enforced, and I don't think the latter is possible thanks to the last few decades of glorifiying shooters (especially in gangs); lax border control due to the geography of the nation and the percieved notion that handguns are a vital part of being a US citizen/having rights.

In the UK regular police officers still do not carry firearms (there is a campaign to try to get tazers authorised though), but there are dedicated (think like SWAT) teams, sometimes even just pairs of officers, who are equipped with firearms to either 1) carry out routine patrols in problem areas (such as inner cities late at night when people the clubs are kicking out and trouble is suspected) or 2) be on call for a situation a regular officer would be at risk in (usually confronting someone suspected of carrying a knife, or rarely, a gun).

A last quick jibe before I go to work: You say the handgun is a tool. When you can paint and put up pictures, take the lid off a can of paint, knock down a dividing wall, split a log, tighten a nut and cook a meal with a handgun, I'll concede that they aren't just used for killing things (even target shooting for sport is practicing the ability to shoot things dead), and fit the definition of a tool.

Since the lad has done his report, I'll stop throwing in my lengthy opinions in this thread, and leave it at a "We'll have to agree to disagree". I do not see the logic behind people like Father Time's arguments, and you cannot see the logic behind mine. I think that alone is an interesting study in cutural relativism, and that's for another thread (or school report). Neither is going to convinve the other, and I'd rather try to leave the argument on a cordial note, than devolve into argument and name-calling for the sake of it.

 

[Daveman]

FAIL! Gun control does little to curb gun violence - indeed, it creates a trend of not more gun violence, but more of it resulting in fatalities. Look up the numbers - gun control doesn't work.

No, that's balls, gun crime in the UK is tiny compared to america. The last time there was ANY gun related crime in my town was about 5 years ago when a jewelers was robbed with a REPLICA pistol. I myself have seen a real gun ONCE. I do live in a very safe area but in the nearest city there is no gun crime to be heard of either.

The UK is also about the size of my back yard.

Zing.

Seriously, perhaps gun control works in other, SMALLER countries, but the US is massive. How in the world do you contend to actually control guns in such a sprawling country, rather than just allowing criminals to have access to guns and not law-abiding citizens.

We used to own your country.
You can't even come up with your own language so you have to take ours and then dumb it down by simplifying the spelling.

Double-Zing.

I think you'll find that most gun crime happens in cities and built up areas so the fact that it's massive doesn't really matter. Also, you don't "allow" criminals to access guns, it's a matter of better policing of illegal firearms.

Also, what's wrong with a taser or other non-lethal protection?

 

[vamp rocks]

i would also say that schools anywhere are not places where we have the best times of our lives, generally the unstable people who go on these rampages are antisocial people who have been cast away from society and feel the need to take revenge... students in america however have access to the nescessary tools to extract said 'revenge', i.e. Guns.

 

[The Black Adder]

Students have almost no rights in public schools. In fact, it may be due to the entitlement of school kids that there is so much tension. Why not uniforms? What makes you think you have the RIGHT to wear what you want? What makes you think you have the RIGHT to leave campus whenever you want? What makes you think you have the RIGHT to say and do what you want in a public school?

I have a skewed view on the subject. I'm in the process of becoming a public school educator.

Ideas like your's are one's that are good if you want to turn kids to mature into cattle, and not free thinking liberated and enlightened adults.

... and there are kids in my school that don't know basic math or basic spelling and grammar. And these morons in my college take up space in classes that I could be taking and learning something from. Maybe the fault isn't in the education system but in people themselves. People are just stupid.

Quoted for comedic value.

Also, when a person leaves the state of nature they give up certain liberties in exchange for safety and the benefits of being a part of an ordered society. Social contract theory 101.

Yeah I know. Unlike my classmates I actually read books.

 

[Daveman]

Since the lad has done his report, I'll stop throwing in my lengthy opinions in this thread, and leave it at a "We'll have to agree to disagree". I do not see the logic behind people like Father Time's arguments, and you cannot see the logic behind mine. I think that alone is an interesting study in cutural relativism, and that's for another thread (or school report). Neither is going to convinve the other, and I'd rather try to leave the argument on a cordial note, than devolve into argument and name-calling for the sake of it.

Whoa there, I didn't say that. You've quoted someone who quoted me I think. Also, I am kind of sick of the debate. I really don't care. I've decided that if people in america want to shoot each other, then I can't be arsed to stop them. It just means I'm not going to be going on holiday there any time soon.

I used to be in favor of gun control and I used to think the NRA (our biggest pro-gun lobby for those who don't know) was nuts. Now I don't. The only time I've ever seen a gun in real life (other than museums) was a police officer so it wasn't a case of me having cultural differences, I was just persuaded by a pro-gun guy in a debate. I do see logic in gun control arguments I just think the arguments against it outweigh them significantly.

Although which of my arguments do you think not make sense? I promise to be calm about it (although if you're sick of the debate I understand).

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

Gun Violence: Bad

Gun Control: Good, for small populations and/or areas

United States: third-largest by land area and population, fourth by total area

Gun Control in United States: unfeasible, after 200+ years of allowing guns

Basically, had we started out without guns, maybe gun control could work. But we have over 300 million citizens that are allowed to legally buy handguns. How do you plan to get all of those guns, and not miss any? Or not allow some of the citizens to hide there guns when you are cracking down on another part of the country? Gun control sounds good, but when you have 8 firearms produced every second in the US, there is no way you can get them all.

 

[Tiror]

*brilliantly written essay outline*

Hi, i'm a friend of Cucumber ( OP of this thread ), and i have gotten the exact same assignment as him. And i have eagerly read what i myself think are very well thought posts from many of you, but one in particular really made me wanna grab it. But i would of course never steal anything without permission, so i ask you, "Wordsmith", can i use the highlighted points of ur post in my essay ?

Go ahead, although if you have a Sources list at the end, I wouldn't object to a small acknowledgement there. Do me a favour though, send me the essay to have a look at. PM me for my e-mail.

Edit:

Why aren't we trying to make better people? Why aren't we trying to eradicate the desire to murder? Why aren't we teaching our children to avoid using violence? This type of behavior is what kills people, not guns. We need less wackos, not less guns.

Indeed. "The gun is a tool. The mind is the weapon."

Hi, i'm sorry i've taken so long, but i had to be quite honest, forgotten

But here it is, my essay, and thanks alot for the "outline" !
http://cid-e26644e4b7d90978.skydrive.live.com/home.aspx

Just click on the "School shooting" folder, and there you have it.

 

[EchetusXe]

"Why are American schools especially in the danger zone when it comes to being attacked with guns by crazy or angry students?"

Because thats where students go?

If you are setting your own question you might want to change it slightly. I mean, 'crazy or angry'? I'm both and I never shot anyone at school.

mentally unbalanced rather crazy and unstable rather than angry.

This is an essay not a rant to a local paper.

 

[wordsmith]

Hi, i'm sorry i've taken so long, but i had to be quite honest, forgotten

But here it is, my essay, and thanks alot for the "outline" !
http://cid-e26644e4b7d90978.skydrive.live.com/home.aspx

Just click on the "School shooting" folder, and there you have it.

Not a badly written essay... Possibly a little colloquial for my liking, but if it does the job... Dare I ask what grade/mark you got?

 

[Tiror]

Hi, i'm sorry i've taken so long, but i had to be quite honest, forgotten

But here it is, my essay, and thanks alot for the "outline" !
http://cid-e26644e4b7d90978.skydrive.live.com/home.aspx

Just click on the "School shooting" folder, and there you have it.

Not a badly written essay... Possibly a little colloquial for my liking, but if it does the job... Dare I ask what grade/mark you got?

Haha, thanks. I have english as my 2nd language, so i'm not as fluent as it could seem What does "colloquial" mean?
And, i havent got the grade yet, the teachers been very busy lately, should get it soon, and will post it here when i have it

 

[wordsmith]

Hi, i'm sorry i've taken so long, but i had to be quite honest, forgotten

But here it is, my essay, and thanks alot for the "outline" !
http://cid-e26644e4b7d90978.skydrive.live.com/home.aspx

Just click on the "School shooting" folder, and there you have it.

Not a badly written essay... Possibly a little colloquial for my liking, but if it does the job... Dare I ask what grade/mark you got?

Haha, thanks. I have english as my 2nd language, so i'm not as fluent as it could seem What does "colloquial" mean?
And, i havent got the grade yet, the teachers been very busy lately, should get it soon, and will post it here when i have it

Colloquial=slang terms/writing like you would talk to your friends. It's 11pm here, and I'm off soon otherwise I'd offer an example. For someone who doesn't speak english as a first language, it's a great effort.

The other thing is I'm sure I shouldn't read/judge by my standards, the American usage of the language is clearly different from the original/english usage, meaning that your style may well be the perfect style for your essay.