Scientific Theory - Do Plants Feel Pain?

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DrOswald

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Apr 22, 2011
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I am actually a biologist, and I can say definitively that the answer is no, at least not in the way we perceive pain. Plants do react to damage and other negative conditions, but that reaction cannot be called pain. Plants have no consciousness or awareness. It's like asking if a drawing of a person being hit in the shin with a baseball bat can feel joy. It's a drawing. There is no consciousness or awareness there to actually feel joy.

Now, if they ever found a plant that has a demonstrative level of consciousness or awareness, the answer may be different. The reactions to environment that we see in normal plants do not demonstrate any level of awareness or consciousness.
 

Uskis

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Apr 21, 2008
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Semudara said:
I disagree with this. It can pretty much be proven that many other animal species feel pain as we do. However, I also agree with many of the other posters that while plants can be harmed and do respond to the harm, "pain" is essentially a nerve impulse with the intention of changing our behavior based on the damage, which plants don't have and have no reason to.
How can it be "proven" that animals feel pain as we do? They are unable to communicate their experience in a common language with us. We are ascribing our concept of "pain" to he reactions we read when they are exposed harm.

"pain" is a nerve-pulse response with the intention to change behavior as you say, but then again, so is for example if something scratches or tickles. When you reduce pain to a purely biological level it has no real meaning.

As a social constructivist, I always love to give you natural scientist a poke when I get the chance ;)
 

CrystalShadow

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Apr 11, 2009
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... Objective research based on a subjective experience is not going to end well.

Pain is a sensation that is subjective. Yes, there are objective things you can measure that say "This should be painful", but you cannot actually judge, through any objective means if that is actually the case or not.

And that's just with another human being involved.

Since we have a reasonable understanding on what a human being means when they say they're in pain (by inference to our on personal experience), and we can objectively measure biological responses that correlate with what most people describe as things that cause pain, we can infer that these objectively measurable physiological responses have some relationship to the completely subjective experience that is referred to as pain.

In studying animals, we don't even have the ability to ask if they feel pain, but we can typically infer from their reactions that they do, mostly insofar as they resemble the reactions of a person that is in pain.

To ask if a plant feels pain however, leaves us with little to go on.
You are asking what the subjective experience of a plant is, when it suffers damage, when a lot of the physiological responses correlating with the subjective experience of pain in humans (and animals), are missing.

I could well ask, does a rock feel pain?

Here, there aren't even measurable biological processes. But since I've asked a question in terms of what the subjective experience of being a rock is, and can find no objectively measurable process that correlates with anything I know of that can be called a 'feeling' (which is a subjective, not objective statement), I am left with two possible conclusions, but no way of verifying them.

1. - The rock has no 'feelings', and does not experience anything at all, of any description. Thus, talking about what it is like to be a rock is rather meaningless.

2. - The rock does feel or experience something, but this is so far removed from the subjective experience of being human, that no meaningful comparison can be made, and thus there is no possible way for a human being to gain any meaningful insight into what it's like to be a rock.


Now, I realise you're talking about plants, but that is rather my point. Subjective experience cannot be measured. You cannot know what it is like to be anything other than yourself, and thus, objective measurements can only identify processes which appear to correlate with such subjective experiences.
If you find such a correlation, you can then use it to infer things about the nature of the subjective experience for another, but only insofar as the measurable traits bear similarities with something that correlates with your own experience.
Inherently, this causes two problems:
Firstly, correlation of objectively measurable traits does not actually imply that your experience is anything like that of another with similar traits, and there is no real way of knowing how similar the experiences actually are, even if the objectively measurable correlated traits are identical.
Secondly, as the subject of your hypothesis becomes further removed from your own physical characteristics, the probability of it's experience resembling your own becomes increasingly unlikely. Thus, the less you have in common with something you are experimenting on, the more difficult it becomes to make meaningful statements about what it's subjective experiences might be like.

And thus, this experiment is, realistically, outside the scope of what science can really answer.
Since you are framing a question on the subjective experience of plants in terms of their objectively measurable physiological responses, all you can realistically note, is that plants respond to being damaged. But that tells you very little about what that experience is like for the plant.

And 'feeling' pain is not an objectively measurable trait. That goes against what it means to 'feel' something.

I can quantify my pain, because I can talk. But nothing I can say, and nothing that I can measure can let you experience what it means when I say I'm in pain.
Now consider what that means for measuring pain in animals, who cannot talk...
Or in plants, who cannot even react in a way a human being would recognise...

Sometimes, I think scientists don't understand the limitations of their own field.
 

Nukey

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Apr 24, 2009
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They don't feel pain, but they do act upon stimuli. If something would certainly kill it, the plant would move and grow accordingly to avoid dying.
 

RevRaptor

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I believe plants feel pain, just look at the acacia tree, when eaten it reacts by increasing its tannin levels to uneatable levels. Then it sends out a chemical signal to warn other acacia tree's to do the same.
To me that is a clear sign the the plant feels the damage and also does not want to be eaten as it sends out what essentially amounts to a plant scream to warn other trees to preemptively raise their tannin levels to avoided being eaten.
Yes it is true that plants can't move to react to damage, but it is clear that at some level they do not want to be eaten, why else develop thorns and toxins and other defensive mechanisms. Also they emit noise when damaged.
Pain is sensing damage and responding to it. For me it is clear that plants do respond to damage and thus feel pain. Pain not as we know it perhaps but still pain.
 

Uskis

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Apr 21, 2008
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Raven said:
What? The concept of pain isn't exclusive to humans... Ever accidentally trod on a dogs paw? They yelp and might limp afterwards... Definitely a reaction to pain. My ex's mum accidentally burnt her dog with a cigarette once, obviously this hurt the dog and it's been afraid of cigarettes ever since...

OT: last I heard (and I study animal welfare), scientists aren't even sure if fish truly feel pain. I think there's a long way to go if you wanna prove that plants can, with their lack of brain and nervous system and all...
I refer to my post above. We can't communicate on an equal level with animals, and as long as they cannot relate their experience themselves, we are ascribing them feelings based on our own experiences. They are reacting to being exposed to harm, but we interpret their reactions in our idea of how reacting to pain looks like. Maybe that's why scientists are having trouble determining if fish feel pain or not. We can't read their reaction to something that should cause pain in a way that is meaningful to us. The dog reacts in a way similar to humans, but fish can't emote in the same meaningful way for humans as a dog. Of course something happens to a fish if it gets burned by a cigarette, but our concept of pain can't be easily applied to a fish, that's why we can't determine if it feels pain. You can't quantify pain in a meaningful way and apply it universally.

I'm not saying it's ok to harm animals, I'm just trying to put the concept in a context (and get people to stop wasting their time discussing "pain" and "plants" in realtion ;))
 

HerbertTheHamster

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Apr 6, 2009
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A rock feels about as much my cup of coffee. They're not a living organism.

Plants don't have a Limbic system, like animals do. Therefore they lack most emotions, the strongest being pain. Most plants can sense and respond accordingly, however.
 

Uskis

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[quote="CrystalShadow" post="18.279760.10923760"

*snip*

Sometimes, I think scientists don't understand the limitations of their own field.[/quote]

Well said, exactly my thoughts. I really hate it when some researches tries to quantify things that are hardly quantifiable, or begins an inquiry without giving proper thought to the concepts they use.
 

Heathrow

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CrystalShadow said:
Sometimes, I think scientists don't understand the limitations of their own field.
The application of excessive scientific thought has never hindered the understanding of a quandary. After all, it lead to your solution.
 

DrOswald

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CrystalShadow said:
Sometimes, I think scientists don't understand the limitations of their own field.
Ok, I agree with virtually everything you said up to this point, but how exactly does this statement follow anything you said before or has been discussed in this topic? Why the sudden attack on scientists/scientific procedure? What does it have to do with anything? And on what basis do you make this accusation?

I know my response sounds a little out of proportion, but I am a scientist by training and profession, and accusing scientists, and in particular biologists, in general of having such massive ignorance in their own field of study is one of the most insulting things you could possibly say to me.
 

Freeze_L

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Judgement101 said:
Why are they spending money to research plant pain?
Why will Snookie make 100,000 per show next year?

Science is never money wasted. However money paid to Reality TV stars is always money undeserved. Besides this could lead to a deeper understanding of our world which is always a good thing. Just like Snookie's untimely demise will lead to the average IQ increasing by a few points.

You did not read that, i am not plotting the assassination of Reality TV stars.... I don't know what your talking about...
 

EvilPicnic

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As they have neither nociceptors to detect pain or CNS to process it, the answer is no; plants cannot feel 'pain' as we know it.