Scientists On Trial For.... Earthquakes?

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Aerowaves

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I thought the whole issue surrounded the fact that scientists knew - or should have known - that the odds of a major earthquake had dramatically improved owing to small-scale seismic activity (I don't know how it works) and had failed to even consider emergency measures.

Source: http://www.economist.com/node/21529006

It's not quite as black and white as perhaps it seems. I don't think they were attacking the scientists for their predictive powers per se but rather the process and their conduct, which seemed to have misled everyone.
 

BSCCollateral

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Link Kadeshi said:
People on the East Coast of the US are not used to quake of any real magnitude, nor are their buildings meant to withstand a 5.9 quake. Kinda like when a Texan gets a blizzard.
Very true. I live in Boston and I sure as heck didn't see any panic over the earthquake. Heck, I didn't even notice.

However, I did see Seattle shut down for three days during a snowfall that might have delayed or closed schools in New York.

And yeah, the OP misled everyone. The geologists are not in trouble for failing to predict an earthquake. The prosecution contends they predicted there wouldn't be one.

It's not clear to me if they said "Nobody can predict earthquakes and they are always possible, but we see no reason to anticipate one" or "Don't expect any earthquakes."
 

JoesshittyOs

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Hmmm. I was actually in that earthquake on a school trip one year. I'm... rather confused on how we are blaming someone for mother nature.

Or maybe the Italian Government knows something and are planning on sacrificing the scientists to prevent another earthquake? They're sure as hell corrupt enough.
 

McMullen

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Aerowaves said:
I thought the whole issue surrounded the fact that scientists knew - or should have known - that the odds of a major earthquake had dramatically improved owing to small-scale seismic activity (I don't know how it works) and had failed to even consider emergency measures.

Source: http://www.economist.com/node/21529006

It's not quite as black and white as perhaps it seems. I don't think they were attacking the scientists for their predictive powers per se but rather the process and their conduct, which seemed to have misled everyone.
Earthquakes don't work that way. Small quakes release energy rather than building it up, so it's not like you can look at a series of quakes and say the earth is winding up for a swing. In fact, the more often an area has them, the less likely they are to be major. On the other hand, sometimes a quake can release stress on one segment of fault only to shift it to another segment, which may or may not have accumulated significantly more stress and be close to breaking, and which may or may not have the fault geometry, wall composition, and structural properties that will cause it to break. And when it breaks, a huge area may slip all at once in one event or smaller sections may slip individually, spreading the energy release out over time.

Basically, you can't predict an earthquake using other quakes. You can say with a lot of confidence that a lot of little ones will probably follow the huge one that almost just killed you, but that doesn't really help much.

This is the problem. People are making judgements about what the scientists should have known or done without taking the time to find out what the scientists can know or do. Some of those people have lawyers and want someone to blame for their loss, and so here we are.
 

blaize2010

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Fbuh said:
This reminds me of how much people on the East Coast freaked when that tiny 5.9 earthquake happened in Virginia. People just like drama.
we freaked out because "what the fuck was that?" "the ground was moving. ground doesn't do that. ground doesn't move here, man, this is the atlantic." i heard a lot of that. personally, being born and raised on the atlantic coast, i'm used to natural disasters coming from the sky, not the ground
 

Scout Tactical

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McMullen said:
That seems to contradict with what the Economist, a highly trusted international news publication seems to think. Read the article.

However, this assessment appears at odds with what seismologists have known for at least 20 years?that small earthquakes increase the likelihood that a powerful event will happen in the near future, even if the absolute probability of such an event remains low. Indeed, Warner Marzocchi and Anna Maria Lombardi of the INGV showed that a few hours before the earthquake actually struck modelling would have suggested the chance that a powerful quake would occur within 10 kilometres of L?Aquila within three days rose from one in 200,000 (the background level) to about one in 1,000.
This is nothing personal against you, but they've done their research and have two credible and respected scientists backing up their statement, so I'm leaning toward trusting them more.
 

Aerowaves

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McMullen said:
Aerowaves said:
I thought the whole issue surrounded the fact that scientists knew - or should have known - that the odds of a major earthquake had dramatically improved owing to small-scale seismic activity (I don't know how it works) and had failed to even consider emergency measures.

Source: http://www.economist.com/node/21529006

It's not quite as black and white as perhaps it seems. I don't think they were attacking the scientists for their predictive powers per se but rather the process and their conduct, which seemed to have misled everyone.
Earthquakes don't work that way. Small quakes release energy rather than building it up, so it's not like you can look at a series of quakes and say the earth is winding up for a swing. In fact, the more often an area has them, the less likely they are to be major.

Basically, you can't predict an earthquake using other quakes. You can say with a lot of confidence that a lot of little ones will probably follow the huge one that almost just killed you, but that doesn't really help much.

This is the problem. People are making judgements about what the scientists should have known or done without taking the time to find out what the scientists can know or do. Some of those people have lawyers and want someone to blame for their loss, and so here we are.
Huh, the Economist is usually a pretty well-researched magazine. Odd that they'd get something so fundamentally wrong.

Anyway, my point was that the focus is apparently on their conduct, which is being cited as grounds for negligence, rather than their ability.
 

McMullen

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Scout Tactical said:
McMullen said:
That seems to contradict with what the Economist, a highly trusted international news publication seems to think. Read the article.

However, this assessment appears at odds with what seismologists have known for at least 20 years?that small earthquakes increase the likelihood that a powerful event will happen in the near future, even if the absolute probability of such an event remains low. Indeed, Warner Marzocchi and Anna Maria Lombardi of the INGV showed that a few hours before the earthquake actually struck modelling would have suggested the chance that a powerful quake would occur within 10 kilometres of L?Aquila within three days rose from one in 200,000 (the background level) to about one in 1,000.
This is nothing personal against you, but they've done their research and have two credible and respected scientists backing up their statement, so I'm leaning toward trusting them more.
Fair enough, but the adjacent paragraphs also bear reading. For example, the article also says that the seismologists in question were trying to dispel a panic caused by the guy making earthquake predictions based on radon, which is known to be an unreliable indicator. In addition, the article mentioned that public policy in the area had not yet adopted probabilistic forecasting.

Basically, a lot of things went wrong. The local government didn't set up proper building codes or a reliable warning and evacuation plan. The people who built the structures in the town failed to make them earthquake-resistant. The seismologists were put in a difficult situation of choosing between increasing a panic caused by speculation by a non-seismologist, or getting people to calm down, and they chose the latter.

Still, whatever mistakes they made, the seismologists were not the architects of this disaster.

Volcanologists deal with this sort of thing too. A bad call either way has consequences severe enough to keep one awake at night. If a volcano erupts, and you don't evacuate people beforehand or are unable to convince them to evacuate, thousands of lives are lost, and you get to second-guess yourself about it for the rest of your life. If the volcano doesn't erupt but you evacuated the surrounding area because it showed every sign of erupting, then you've dropped an economic bombshell on the area, caused businesses and perhaps even entire towns to go bankrupt, the credibility of you and your entire profession is damaged, and people send you death threats.

Trouble is, volcanoes are almost maliciously cryptic, borderline deceptive, with the signals they put out. What 20 years of science seems to indicate is a fail-safe precursor to eruption can turn out to be a false alarm, and what appears to be a return to normal activity can become a major eruption in a matter of hours.

It's a very difficult call to make, and the simple fact is that seismologists, volcanologists, and meteorologists will occasionally get it wrong, for a variety of reasons. Avoiding a panic is among the right reasons. They should not be on trial for what happened, or if they are, then everyone should be: The government for not putting building codes and adequate plans in place, the masons for building deathtraps, the nuclear physics lab technician for interfering and fueling a panic, the seismologists for putting more weight on the panic than the probability of a quake, and the victims for not educating themselves and evaluating the risk on their own. Yes, the latter scenario is as utterly ridiculous as it sounds, but is the logical conclusion of this belief that people should be sued for natural disasters.
 

ShindoL Shill

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Jul 11, 2011
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thats about my reaction.
how can this work?
Evil Alpaca said:
Maybe the prosecution just finished a screening of The Core and now blame all earthquakes on science.
ugh! dont remind me of that film.
 

Scout Tactical

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McMullen said:
I still feel as though any credible geologist -- even one whose knowledge of the subject was twenty years out of date, would not be so foolish as to say the earthquakes of the region posted "no danger". That was their wording: a direct quote.

In fact, even small earthquakes can cause serious damage to old buildings that aren't up to code. That's what the geologists should have been addressing: the fact that whether or not a big earthquake comes, you have to be prepared, and even make sure you can deal with over-time structural damage from small quakes. Any old building is susceptible to collapse from even small earthquakes. This is what a credible scientist would have said. They wouldn't have told government officials that there was "no danger" at all.

I don't necessarily think they should face charges, but I think that was pretty irresponsible on the whole, even completely aside from the fact that telling people there's no danger may have led to more people staying in the city, and perhaps contributed to the death toll. I would think a responsible seismologist would say there is "always a present danger, even in seemingly favorable circumstances" -- especially if there is no way to be certain.
 

JMeganSnow

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Fbuh said:
This reminds me of how much people on the East Coast freaked when that tiny 5.9 earthquake happened in Virginia. People just like drama.
Nobody "freaked", it was just really unusual, and people like to babble about unusual things.

But yeah, earthquakes can happen anywhere at any time, at pretty much any magnitude. There's a big but rather quiet fault line right under the Mississippi River that could be devastating if it ever cuts loose with a major quake again. Or maybe I should say "when" instead of "if".
 

McMullen

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Scout Tactical said:
McMullen said:
I still feel as though any credible geologist -- even one whose knowledge of the subject was twenty years out of date, would not be so foolish as to say the earthquakes of the region posted "no danger". That was their wording: a direct quote.

In fact, even small earthquakes can cause serious damage to old buildings that aren't up to code. That's what the geologists should have been addressing: the fact that whether or not a big earthquake comes, you have to be prepared, and even make sure you can deal with over-time structural damage from small quakes. Any old building is susceptible to collapse from even small earthquakes. This is what a credible scientist would have said. They wouldn't have told government officials that there was "no danger" at all.

I don't necessarily think they should face charges, but I think that was pretty irresponsible on the whole, even completely aside from the fact that telling people there's no danger may have led to more people staying in the city, and perhaps contributed to the death toll. I would think a responsible seismologist would say there is "always a present danger, even in seemingly favorable circumstances" -- especially if there is no way to be certain.
I will agree that they should have known better than to use the words "no danger".
 

M920CAIN

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aegix drakan said:
.........I don't want to live on this planet anymore...

Seriously, WHAT IN THE !@#$. What, are we gonna start prosecuting weathermen for not predicting that a lightning bolt was gonna fall on someone's head? x_x
Good idea! lets do it!
 

Fbuh

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JMeganSnow said:
Fbuh said:
This reminds me of how much people on the East Coast freaked when that tiny 5.9 earthquake happened in Virginia. People just like drama.
Nobody "freaked", it was just really unusual, and people like to babble about unusual things.

But yeah, earthquakes can happen anywhere at any time, at pretty much any magnitude. There's a big but rather quiet fault line right under the Mississippi River that could be devastating if it ever cuts loose with a major quake again. Or maybe I should say "when" instead of "if".
I work at a Wal Mart in Maryland. Trust me when I say people freaked. I never said intelligent people freaked, but there was indeed people freakage. We still have door greeters talking about it, as if it were some great disaster that happened decades ago.
 

chiggerwood

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May 10, 2009
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SO... Fucking... Stupid! We, All of us, in the whole wide world are currently living in the 21st century. The future if I may call it that. I can look up any information I want to, ON MY FUCKING PHONE! And there's still people this fucking retarded?!?! The horrifying thing is this right now we all think that THIS is it! We have arrived at the apex of stupidity. We have reached the peak of Mount "You Gotta Be Fuckin' Kidding Me" But no give it time soon enough we'll all turn around and BAM! there's going to be another peak right behind us that's gonna dwarf this massive amount of stupidity. Mark my words there will be another peak.
 

Redlin5_v1legacy

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Aug 5, 2009
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Daystar Clarion said:
Ugh, really?

That's just...

I can't...

If anyone needs me, I'll be in the angry dome.

I will be in there with you... I just can't...



For my sanity this case better not go the stupid route and convict these scientists...