SCOTUS leak suggests Roe v. Wade to be overturned

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BrawlMan

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Historically, how well has telling people not to have sex for fun worked out?
I swear the people in charge doing this dumb shit have many hidden vices and take out on everyone else out of insecurity and screwing others over just to feel better about themselves. This is why you don't ever let biatch-in-a-boxstand in charge and that same biatch put other bitches in charger. Those pulling this can screw off.
 

Schadrach

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To be secure in the autonomy of one's body and the medical practice concerning it against arbitrary control by the government seems not to be going one step further from this (the fourth amendment), but rather is a smaller step in the same direction from the foundational principle upon which the fourth amendment right is grounded.
Err, doesn't that argument also mean you almost can't regulate the medical industry at all? As well as virtually all drug laws (after all, restricting the sale of meth [or Vioxx or whatever] is just as much a restriction of your ability to enact your right to bodily autonomy to consume meth as restricting what medical practitioners might perform abortion is to your ability to enact your right to bodily autonomy to have one performed on you[ or literally any other surgical procedure conceivable]). Hell, you could start toppling a whole lot of laws under that argument and be halfway to a minarchist libertarian hellscape before lunch, if you can't regulate anything you do with your body or force anyone to do anything with their body or any industry that might as an effect restrict what one might do with their body...

Also, this being an "emanation of a penumbra" and in your mind being acceptable, now I have to ask: Does that mean child support and alimony are unconstitutional as forms of involuntary servitude? Or hell under bodily autonomy, as they are in effect mandating that you will produce a certain amount of excess economic value (typically by labor, which involves using your body) against your will to be given to another on pain of imprisonment?

Or can we agree that one of the biggest problems with most pro-choice arguments is that they tend not to actually be built on any kind of foundation other than "women should be allowed to have an abortion if they desire" and then reasoning is just kind of retrofit around that to sound like it's the logical conclusion working from some underlying principals when it's not, it's exactly the opposite and as a consequence you end up with a lot of special pleading.
 
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Schadrach

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This depends on what's actually happening but surgical operations should probably be done somewhere stable. And medication that makes you nauseated probably should mix with waves
This just sounds like chartering ships to Sealand to have abortions performed without restriction would be a better alternative. Or building another Sealand-style artificial island in international waters closer to the US. Then they'd have to illegalize leaving the country to do the thing. Which the government definitely can do, as that's how they handle people going abroad to have sex with kids in places where that's either not illegal or not enforced.

This will only cost them votes and could swing things democratic in the mid terms.
Dems are secretly giddy about this, because their entire platform for winning elections is "Republicans are terrifying, vote for us!" I suspect the leak will end up having been by someone on the right side of the isle, specifically so this will be less "fresh" news by election time. It being the big thing to discuss now is better for the GOP than it being the big thing to discuss any time in the future through November. Voters have notoriously short memories.
 

Silvanus

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I don't think the people having abortions are those who would neglect and abuse their children. I think they are people as convinced as you are that they are making the responsible decision. I don't think they are making the responsible decision, but I'm willing to judge people by their own intentions, and believe they would seek other ways to not traumatize their child.
People almost never seek to traumatise their child. But if they're unready to raise them, it frequently leads to neglect.

The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom has fathered numerous children with his past mistresses, then left those women and is now totally uninvolved in the children's lives and doesn't provide support. Do you believe our PM is a complete outlier, and the standard of responsibility in the general population is far higher than he represents?
 

tstorm823

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It's not homicide to not give a blood transfusion to somebody that was injured in a traffic accident you were involved in.
Not usually, but if it was the parent... imagine a man and his daughter crash in a remote area. She's bleeding out. EMTs get there, but she's not gonna make it to the hospital alive, she needs a blood transfusion, and the only blood of the right type available is her father's blood. The EMT's ask the dad if he'll let them use his blood and he responds "Nah". And they're like "your daughter is going to die", and he responds "my body, my choice, and frankly I'm a sucky dad, so it's probably more responsible to let her die anyway."

That dad is a sack of crap, throw him in jail for negligent homicide. If it's not her father, that's a different situation, but the obligations of parenthood supersede individual rights. Any of those obligations would be considered cruel and unusual punishment if imposed in any other circumstance, but that's parenthood. We don't make people share bodily fluid with strangers, we also don't make people wipe each others butts, but parents that refuse to change a diaper and leave an infant to suffer are going to get in trouble with the law for their negligence. We, as a society, prioritize the next generation over ourselves, and we require extraordinary measures from parents that we would not and could not reasonably ask of anyone else.
Anti-abortion bills dont stop these homicides
Not all of them, but many of them. More importantly, the public perception of abortion needs to change, and even if every state adopted the legal framework of Roe v Wade, not treating it as a consitutionally guaranteed right can go a long way toward people considering "hey, this might be kinda totally heinous."
People almost never seek to traumatise their child. But if they're unready to raise them, it frequently leads to neglect.

The Prime Minister of the United Kingdom has fathered numerous children with his past mistresses, then left those women and is now totally uninvolved in the children's lives and doesn't provide support. Do you believe our PM is a complete outlier, and the standard of responsibility in the general population is far higher than he represents?
Not a complete outlier, but worse than the average for sure.

And like, the mistresses of the Prime Minister of the UK 100% have access to abortion, yet those unsupported children very much exist. Are you calling the mothers irresponsible? Would banning abortion change this situation at all?
 

tstorm823

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So on top of an increase to the rate of child abuse, infant mortality, women dying from performing abortions themselves, we're also going to see an increase in sexual frustration.
Bet you none of this happens.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Dems are secretly giddy about this, because their entire platform for winning elections is "Republicans are terrifying, vote for us!" I suspect the leak will end up having been by someone on the right side of the isle, specifically so this will be less "fresh" news by election time. It being the big thing to discuss now is better for the GOP than it being the big thing to discuss any time in the future through November. Voters have notoriously short memories.
Probably to some extent, this will rile up the base and get people to the polls, it does show that republicans will pull shit like this. I have been hearing people speculate that the leak came from a right winger, but this is also an early draft and with an early enough leak and them being able to see the reaction, they might change things before the actual ruling to lessen the scope. For the mid terms.
 

Trunkage

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Not all of them, but many of them. More importantly, the public perception of abortion needs to change, and even if every state adopted the legal framework of Roe v Wade, not treating it as a consitutionally guaranteed right can go a long way toward people considering "hey, this might be kinda totally heinous."

Not a complete outlier, but worse than the average for sure.
Theyve done studies on this

No. Anti-abortion do not reduce abortions. They do not change women's perception of abortion. Nor does religion. Its something like 19% of abortions in the US is done on those highly evangelical women that would say they hate abortion. 10% of abortions are done on Catholic women. They just stop telling men anything and lie.

Nothing that is being done will make people think it so heinous to stop abortion. 99.9% of women ALREADY think it's heinous without these laws. 99.9% of Liberals and Lefties do too. There is no level of heinousness thaf will make it happen. They already think its heinous and they do it anyway.
 

Casual Shinji

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He's not sticking his head in the sand, like a true conservative he just doesn't give a flying fuck. Like a true pro-lifer he cares about the "pure" concept of pregnancy, but doesn't fucking care about the actual impact, outcome, or future a pregnancy might hold for someone. Don't actually listen to or help people, just hold on to your fairy tale idea of life being sacred.
Bet you none of this happens.
Yeah, you continue not giving a fuck like the good christian you are.
 

Silvanus

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Not a complete outlier, but worse than the average for sure.

And like, the mistresses of the Prime Minister of the UK 100% have access to abortion, yet those unsupported children very much exist. Are you calling the mothers irresponsible? Would banning abortion change this situation at all?
No, I think the mothers believed he would stick around. But that's besides the point really.

This situation-- in which someone has a child and then simply does not have the follow-through to provide support-- happens a lot. He's worse than the average, but he's by no means terribly unusual.

The issue is that you're imagining "responsibility" to be one single measurable thing, and without scale: if it applies to one decision, it applies to all equally. But that's simply not the case. The amount of responsibility required to raise a child is massive. The amount of responsibility required to look at your life and conclude you're not ready for it is a much lower bar.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Not usually, but if it was the parent... imagine a man and his daughter crash in a remote area. She's bleeding out. EMTs get there, but she's not gonna make it to the hospital alive, she needs a blood transfusion, and the only blood of the right type available is her father's blood. The EMT's ask the dad if he'll let them use his blood and he responds "Nah". And they're like "your daughter is going to die", and he responds "my body, my choice, and frankly I'm a sucky dad, so it's probably more responsible to let her die anyway."

That dad is a sack of crap, throw him in jail for negligent homicide. If it's not her father, that's a different situation,
Why? What good argument can you make that says it's legally and morally okay for a stranger to let someone die but not a parent?

How does it legally stop being negligent homicide? Would it still be negligent homicide if I was an ex-dad and the kid signed adoption papers with somebody else a day ago? Is it negligent homicide if the dad doesn't know they're a dad until right in that moment? A day after? Step dad that hasn't signed adoption papers?

How about if he flinched midway through the procedure and cocked it up? Or if he's running low on blood himself? Would it be morally okay for the government to strap that unwilling man down and murder him for a shot at saving his daughter?

Big talk about how society prioritizes for the next generation coming from a conservative. Absolutely hilarious given the state of social services.
 
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tstorm823

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The issue is that you're imagining "responsibility" to be one single measurable thing, and without scale: if it applies to one decision, it applies to all equally. But that's simply not the case. The amount of responsibility required to raise a child is massive. The amount of responsibility required to look at your life and conclude you're not ready for it is a much lower bar.
Even assuming the premise, I disagree with this idea. The responsibility required to have foresight and planning is a much higher bar than just rising to the occasions presented to you. It's relatively easy to take things as they come compared to planning years in advance.
Why? What good argument can you make that says it's legally and morally okay for a stranger to let someone die but not a parent?
Custody? Let's go with custody.
Theyve done studies on this

No. Anti-abortion do not reduce abortions. They do not change women's perception of abortion. Nor does religion. Its something like 19% of abortions in the US is done on those highly evangelical women that would say they hate abortion. 10% of abortions are done on Catholic women. They just stop telling men anything and lie.

Nothing that is being done will make people think it so heinous to stop abortion. 99.9% of women ALREADY think it's heinous without these laws. 99.9% of Liberals and Lefties do too. There is no level of heinousness thaf will make it happen. They already think its heinous and they do it anyway.
Your intense fatalism is noted. I believe in progress.
 

Silvanus

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Even assuming the premise, I disagree with this idea. The responsibility required to have foresight and planning is a much higher bar than just rising to the occasions presented to you. It's relatively easy to take things as they come compared to planning years in advance.
Is that all you think parenting asks of someone? To "take things as they come"?

I think you might be an unintended illustration of my point.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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Custody? Let's go with custody.
So a divorced dad with visitation but not custody is exempt? You're drawing some really weird and arbitrary lines for somebody who wants to save lives
Your intense fatalism is noted. I believe in progress.
Tell me you didn't think that standard through without telling me you didn't think that standard through. Does proximity matter? Daughter gets in an accident with dad 5 miles away at the hotel, can the government still drag dad down and murder him to maybe save her life?

I want you to explain your legal standard and why it should be acceptable, not throw around words you don't understand to shut down debate. We already have a woman in prison over a miscarriage. Medical examiner says her drug use didn't contribute, prosecutor thought otherwise. Good Christian standards right there
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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So Louisiana's taking its shot against regular hormonal birth control and IUDs:




Probably their test case to overturn Griswold, which would mean restricted/banned birth control
 

Buyetyen

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So Louisiana's taking its shot against regular hormonal birth control and IUDs:




Probably their test case to overturn Griswold, which would mean restricted/banned birth control
BuT yOu GuYz, ThE rEpUbLiCaNs WoUlDn'T dO tHaT

Yeah, everybody who said that the Roe reversal wouldn't lead to other pushes for conservative culture war shit: how does my ass taste?
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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So Louisiana's taking its shot against regular hormonal birth control and IUDs:




Probably their test case to overturn Griswold, which would mean restricted/banned birth control
Women need to be forcibly kept celibate until I get them, so that they have no way to know how small my penis is and how bad I am in the sack.
 
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