Screw the Class System

[felbot]

completely disagree, the class system allows people to play what they want from the very start of the game, like in oblivion in where you go through the dungeon and gradually make your own past, that way when you get out of the dungeon you actually feel like a thief or a mage when you get out.

in contrast skyrim decided to do what you wanted to do and because of that the guy wasn't fun to play as until level like 10 or something when you had finally built the class you wanted.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

How about we don't do that? You know what game said fuck it to a class system? FF VII did. Do you know what game people like to point out that has homogeneous characters with no difference between each other in battle? FF VII. This does not work in every game nor should become what every game does.

Especially since 2 of the examples you come up with are Bethesda games which are not games I would ever hold up on a pedestal for good combat mechanics.

This would make MMO much worse balance wise as anyone can pick any skills and there will be more than just a few min/maxers. People will find out which skills are the best and use them in builds.

This does not work in every game so it should not be in every game. I don't want to be bored.

 

[Thunderous Cacophony]

So you name Skyrim and Fallout 3, of all games, as examples? Ha.

Apparently there is a lot of hate towards these games. I've never played Skyrim (I chose it because it was popular and, from what I know, it had the classless system), but I rather liked Fallout 3. As @T'Generalissimo pointed out, the game suffers from major power creep, with characters at the end capable of just about anything, but I liked the idea behind it: major categories of overarching traits (Strength, Agility, Perception, etc.), minor categories of specific learned skills (Guns, Lockpick, Medicine, etc.) and perks which gave special bonuses that helped add flavour as well as mechanics (Cannibal, Impartial Mediation, Animal Friend, etc.)

If they cut back on the number of skill points per level, I think that it would make a much more diverse and interesting game.

 

[Thunderous Cacophony]

How about we don't do that? You know what game said fuck it to a class system? FF VII did. Do you know what game people like to point out that has homogeneous characters with no difference between each other in battle? FF VII. This does not work in every game nor should become what every game does.

What do you think of a think of special abilities/a theme system? Your NPC companions, in addition to having unique starting stats (and the ability to refuse to use/learn things that they don't approve of), have a special suite of moves available to them and only them; something like Dragon Age II's companion system, where people had special moves that tied deeply into their character and background, like Aveline's willingness to protect you at cost to herself, or Fenris' lyrium tattoos giving him anti-magic abilities, while his hatred of mages increased his damage towards them. See Also: the background/theme/paragon path/epic destiny idea in Dungeons and Dragons, where they tie together various mechanical bonuses and penalties in a flavourful package, meaning that changing those changes the character significantly.

I do think that it's important to differentiate the NPCs, and I don't think it makes sense for the player to be able to arbitrarily change the entire makeup of his party members "just 'cause". I'm thinking more about a system for players to get the most customization out of their own avatars, rather than radically altering the characters the game designers made.

 

[SajuukKhar]

More classless systems would be great.

Classes are a unneeded relic of the older days that only serve to constrict and deny player choice.

I agree. Down with LMB spam, up with turn-based tactics

You only have to LMB spam if you choose to.

There are plenty of ways to play the game that dont require it.

 

[runnerbelow]

The idea of removing class is a novel one, but one that is possibly more trouble than it's worth. In MMOs it probably wouldn't make them better, considering in an MMO it is necessary to group up to make up for a classes shortcomings. Not to mention what would happen to PvP. Dear god. They can hardly balance class systems on a one vs. one basis (even 2 vs. 2 is poor) But making a classless system would be even harder to balance, or everyone ends up with the exact same set up, killing any diversity as well as crushing the point of getting rid of classes in the first place.

And I'm kind of repeating what Glademaster said. Oh well.

 

[VoidWanderer]

There IS a reason why there are definitive roles in gaming...

It works. I think any MMO that goes for the 'classless' system is going to struggle in terms of PVE. I acn easily see people HAVING to be a healer, so there is a healer. Roles are there not to shoehorn people into a playing style, but to encourage teamwork.

A tank can do nothing if he keeps dying, DPS cannot deal damage if they get swarmed. A healer might get through but wil be resource depleted very quickly.

Single Player games can get away with a classless system, as YOU are the ONLY one you can truly rely on.

Also in regards to the 'balance issue'. That is only an issue for PVPers. ONLY PvP. They are the ones more vocal for 'balance' when they are either unlucky, have internet connection not as good as they think, or they are not good at PvP.

So, no. I am not with you...

 

[weirdee]

what i've noticed most about open ended systems is that you end up with a spread out character that doesn't do particularly well at anything, a fully maxed character who can do anything which destroys diversity, or a character built to a particular "class" anyway because the entire skill system claims to be versatile but due to specific synergies and strategies, you end up following a rigidly defined path anyway since diverting from it would produce an inferior version of that character.

i cannot say that any one method is better than the other, really...it mostly depends on what you are trying to do, and the main advantage of a restricted system (greater control which greatly assists in tightening the quality of the experience) cannot be found with a freeform character system. with a sandbox, you give the player more control, in exchange for either having to dumb down or diversify the challenge to allow the worst/differently character to succeed (for instance, in deus ex:hr, a pacifist character was not able to get through the boss battles due to the need for direct confrontation), or allowing the character to become strong enough that any disadvantages from choosing a particular build are too insignificant to matter.

i would recommend sticking with playing the games you do enjoy, rather than trying to make the other games also to your liking at the expense of people who may enjoy different types of games than you do.

 

[ChildishLegacy]

A lot of the time in multiplayer based games you need class systems to shoehorn you into some sort of role because sometimes if they leave your build up to you you'll end up with a character that is jack of all trades and master of none, when you'd rather have a team full of people who are all specialized in something, each one complimenting the other.

You'd also have min/maxers having all of the best characters and people who don't have a clue being completely outclassed by them in every single way, a lot of the time it's better to have guidance via the class system just so everybody has an equal playing field.

 

[Vigormortis]

snip

Do away with class-based game-play?

Um....no. While can agree it's unnecessary in some games, in others it adds a lot to the theme and structure of the game.

Besides, without class-based game-play we wouldn't have this little gem: http://www.tf2.com/

 

[iseko]

Star wars galaxies pre-cu. Was perfect! Sure you had guys whining because someone found the best combo EVA. But thats just because they sucked. I played one character for 2 years. First a commando healer -> teras kasi artist (martial arts) with healing -> full on doctor with merchanting -> entertainer -> bounty hunter with healing -> armorsmith/weaponsmith -> jedi

Then they fucked it up. Damn bastards.

Point being: you could combinate different skillsets or go for the max of just one skilltree. And as soon as you are bored with it, you could try something different with the same character. I loved it. Im still missing you Nemesis Duthura :'(.

[sub]looks up old videos whilst silently sobbing[/sub]

 

[KeyMaster45]

*snip*

It sounds like you should check out The Secret World. I played a couple of their "beta" weekends (in quotes because they were really just demo weekends using an inferior patch than what the actual beta had) and their character advancement system is alot like what you describe. It was an interesting system. I played both weekends spec'd in such a way that I was a mage who could beat you senseless with a sledgehammer and melt your face.

 

[Jodah]

Set classes make the game much easier to balance. In games that are single player only, like Skyrim, that isn't as important but in any game that has any multiplayer classes are the way to go.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

How about we don't do that? You know what game said fuck it to a class system? FF VII did. Do you know what game people like to point out that has homogeneous characters with no difference between each other in battle? FF VII. This does not work in every game nor should become what every game does.

What do you think of a think of special abilities/a theme system? Your NPC companions, in addition to having unique starting stats (and the ability to refuse to use/learn things that they don't approve of), have a special suite of moves available to them and only them; something like Dragon Age II's companion system, where people had special moves that tied deeply into their character and background, like Aveline's willingness to protect you at cost to herself, or Fenris' lyrium tattoos giving him anti-magic abilities, while his hatred of mages increased his damage towards them. See Also: the background/theme/paragon path/epic destiny idea in Dungeons and Dragons, where they tie together various mechanical bonuses and penalties in a flavourful package, meaning that changing those changes the character significantly.

I do think that it's important to differentiate the NPCs, and I don't think it makes sense for the player to be able to arbitrarily change the entire makeup of his party members "just 'cause". I'm thinking more about a system for players to get the most customization out of their own avatars, rather than radically altering the characters the game designers made.

I wouldn't mind giving it a go as I'll pretty much try every system once and I wouldn't mind one or 2 games to use a classless type system as long as there are a variety of other systems.