Scythes in Games

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Lunar Templar

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Souplex said:
We've been over this before; Scythes are a poor choice for a weapon, and those who think otherwise have poor opinions.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.70517-Scythes#694172
he's talking IN A VIDEO GAME, not RL, way to miss the point.

OT: Evie in Vindictus can use one, and it fucking devastating -.- would be more so if they hadn't made her staff the most over power thing, in any game, like ever (the mage class in this game has more damage out put and better survivability, THEN THE CHARACTERS DESIGN FOR DAMAGE AND 'TANKING' -.-)

there was guild wars but honestly >.> i never got into that game

but i'm with ya, should be more scythes in games
 

JackKrauserFtw

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Belated said:
Souplex said:
We've been over this before; Scythes are a poor choice for a weapon, and those who think otherwise have poor opinions.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.70517-Scythes#694172
Uh, yeah, I don't really care what you've "been over" before. If I wasn't there, it might as well never have happened. Science can decide that it's not a practical weapon, but there is no science that can decide whether it is or isn't a "poor choice" as one in a video game. That is pure opinion based on aesthetics and aesthetics alone. Aesthetics, as in beauty. And beauty is rarely scientific. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And "eye of the beholder" is another way of saying "purely subjective." Thus, as it's something purely subjective, there are no "poor opinions" about it, positive or negative.
First off "If i wasn't there it might as well never have happened" How fucking egocentric do you want to be? search the forums, it's not that hard. Second if the only reason why a scythe is included as a weapon is for fan service than whats to stop me from saying I want to be able to throw golden gem encrusted turds at the enemy.
 

KiloFox

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Play one of the Phantasy Star games... there's PSO for the GameCube (good luck finding that though... $80 on E-Bay last I checked) but there's a free version of that with worse controls, but extra content for free called PSOBB (Phantasy Star Online Blue Burst) there's Phantasy Star Portable for the PSP, and it's sequel (Phantasy Star Portable 2) both branch off the PSU game for PS2 and Xbox360 Phantasy Star Universe (which is crap in comparison to the other games) AND there's the sequel to PSO coming exclusive to the PC (and to Japan too it looks like at the moment, but it's still in development so we'll see an English patch if nothing else) called PSO2 (Phantasy Star Online 2) and looks to take all the good things of PSO and PSU and combine them with none of the crap. Scythes are available in each game... usually just Soul Eater and Soul Banish. but they're still awesome.
 

Aethren

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Fayde in Heroes of Newerth uses a scythe. She gets bonus points for actually holding it correctly.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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I think the discussion largely dances around the key points. The first is simple enough to address: has something that is a scythe, by which I mean a farming implement, been used in warfare? Yes. Has such an implement been used to kill someone? Of course. With these two points we have established something: that the scythe has been leverage in battle and has almost certainly shed blood.

But these two points don't really address the real question. Plenty of objects can be used to end another person'[s life. A claw hammer can cave in a skull, a baseball bat can shatter bones and a sharpened stick can puncture flesh. But such things are improvised weapons. These are objects that are created with with a purpose other than ending the life of another and, as a natural result, will generally perform worse than a purpose built weapon.

This is precisely where the scythe falls. It is a weapon of desperation, something that is better than being unarmed but inadequate in the face of something designed specifically for the purpose of murder. A claw hammer can bash a skull but a war hammer is better suited for the purpose. A wood cutting axe can fell a man but any of a variety of battle axes are preferable for the job.

The last discussion seems to revolve around the notion of a scythe specifically designed for war. To this point I would argue that altering an object in order to make it better suited for one function (murder) at the expense of another (farming) means you are generally dealing with a different kind of object altogether.

DoctorFrankenStein said:
I LOVE scythes and sickles. As for their practicality I'll turn to the master scribe, Terry Pratchett-
"Although the scythe isn't pre-eminent among the weapons of war, anyone who has been on the wrong end of, say, a peasants' revolt will know that in skilled hands it is fearsome."
A peasant, by definition, would not represent "skilled hands", especially in the martial sense.

Jabberwock xeno said:
You can hook and grab the edges of armor, sheilds, and swords, twist and hook to pull them away, or hit the opponents body from odd angles.
The method of striking with a scythe does allow one to naturally attack the weakest points in armor. It also ensures that one has the most difficulty landing a hit as a short pace forward will result in being hit by the haft of the weapon and, assuming one is wearing any significant armor, will result in exactly zero significant injuries. By contrast, the person holding the scythe will have enormous difficulty maneuvering the weapon for a follow up attack before the defender can counter with their own strike. A single pace back and the blade misses entirely and a follow up attack would take a fair amount of time for no other reason than the design and length of the weapon. A step to either side could result in the blade only landing a glancing blow that could readily be turned by a great many types of armor (including relatively common and cheap iterations). Hooking the shield as described solves no problem as this ensures the dangerous part of one's weapon (the point and edge) are in no position to actually cause injury. Without a way to do anything more than jab the shield holding man with a blunt stick, one has simply forfeited their offensive strike by tangling their weapon with their target's defensive implement and have no means of defending against a swiftly delivered attack.

The fundamental problems with the scythe as a weapon ought to be obvious. The weapon is very long yet is designed to be used in a swinging motion. Once one commits to any particular motion of this type, it is difficult to quickly recover. More to the point, the length of such a weapon ensures that it would be of limited use defensively. This is a significant problem considering the average person wielding such a weapon would not be wearing anything more than the most rudimentary armor. Beyond this, there are the offensive problems I noted above. If you couple this with the fact that the scythe requires two hands to use, you find that you are armed with an inadequate weapon all while having next to nothing to defend yourself with. Where other weapons with similar flaws could at least find solace in numbers and well ordered formations, the basic mechanism of delivering an attack with a scythe ensures that close order ranks are impossible thus ensuring that a man so armed fights alone. When you top it all off with the simple fact that the farming version of a scythe is simply poorly suited to deliver an effective attack against a wide variety of armors, you find that it truly is a weapon of desperation.

There are ways around these problems of course. To counter the problem of an utter lack of defense one could simply wear significant armor. Such a move is expensive and almost certainly out of the means of a peasant. To counter the problems of the basic style of attack one could add a spear point. To counter the relative useless of such a weapon against significant armor one could opt for a shorter, thicker and wider blade.

The solution to the problem of the scythe therefore is easy to see: one simply needs a better weapon that shares little with the scythe and armor that no farmer could afford.
 

KarlMonster

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My character in Fallen Earth currently carries a scythe and a pickaxe. You'd think that is shockingly cumbersome, but since it works, I do it. However, in the game, the scythe does less damage than the pickaxe. So I pull out the pickaxe to clear the area since a strike to the head is a one-hit kill. Then I pull out the scythe to harvest whatever local plant it was that I went there to get. I could just use a sickle, or some other harvesting implement, but the scythe gives a better bonus to the harvest yield, and it looks frikkin cool. Because:

otakon17 said:
I'll be honest I've always like Halberds myself. But Scythes do have a certain "intimidation" factor inundated from association with the "Grim Reaper" that most people recognize as the anthropomorphic form of death.
 

DoctorFrankenStein

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Eclectic Dreck said:
I think the discussion largely dances around the key points. The first is simple enough to address: has something that is a scythe, by which I mean a farming implement, been used in warfare? Yes. Has such an implement been used to kill someone? Of course. With these two points we have established something: that the scythe has been leverage in battle and has almost certainly shed blood.

But these two points don't really address the real question. Plenty of objects can be used to end another person'[s life. A claw hammer can cave in a skull, a baseball bat can shatter bones and a sharpened stick can puncture flesh. But such things are improvised weapons. These are objects that are created with with a purpose other than ending the life of another and, as a natural result, will generally perform worse than a purpose built weapon.

This is precisely where the scythe falls. It is a weapon of desperation, something that is better than being unarmed but inadequate in the face of something designed specifically for the purpose of murder. A claw hammer can bash a skull but a war hammer is better suited for the purpose. A wood cutting axe can fell a man but any of a variety of battle axes are preferable for the job.

The last discussion seems to revolve around the notion of a scythe specifically designed for war. To this point I would argue that altering an object in order to make it better suited for one function (murder) at the expense of another (farming) means you are generally dealing with a different kind of object altogether.

DoctorFrankenStein said:
I LOVE scythes and sickles. As for their practicality I'll turn to the master scribe, Terry Pratchett-
"Although the scythe isn't pre-eminent among the weapons of war, anyone who has been on the wrong end of, say, a peasants' revolt will know that in skilled hands it is fearsome."
A peasant, by definition, would not represent "skilled hands", especially in the martial sense.

Jabberwock xeno said:
You can hook and grab the edges of armor, sheilds, and swords, twist and hook to pull them away, or hit the opponents body from odd angles.
The method of striking with a scythe does allow one to naturally attack the weakest points in armor. It also ensures that one has the most difficulty landing a hit as a short pace forward will result in being hit by the haft of the weapon and, assuming one is wearing any significant armor, will result in exactly zero significant injuries. By contrast, the person holding the scythe will have enormous difficulty maneuvering the weapon for a follow up attack before the defender can counter with their own strike. A single pace back and the blade misses entirely and a follow up attack would take a fair amount of time for no other reason than the design and length of the weapon. A step to either side could result in the blade only landing a glancing blow that could readily be turned by a great many types of armor (including relatively common and cheap iterations). Hooking the shield as described solves no problem as this ensures the dangerous part of one's weapon (the point and edge) are in no position to actually cause injury. Without a way to do anything more than jab the shield holding man with a blunt stick, one has simply forfeited their offensive strike by tangling their weapon with their target's defensive implement and have no means of defending against a swiftly delivered attack.

The fundamental problems with the scythe as a weapon ought to be obvious. The weapon is very long yet is designed to be used in a swinging motion. Once one commits to any particular motion of this type, it is difficult to quickly recover. More to the point, the length of such a weapon ensures that it would be of limited use defensively. This is a significant problem considering the average person wielding such a weapon would not be wearing anything more than the most rudimentary armor. Beyond this, there are the offensive problems I noted above. If you couple this with the fact that the scythe requires two hands to use, you find that you are armed with an inadequate weapon all while having next to nothing to defend yourself with. Where other weapons with similar flaws could at least find solace in numbers and well ordered formations, the basic mechanism of delivering an attack with a scythe ensures that close order ranks are impossible thus ensuring that a man so armed fights alone. When you top it all off with the simple fact that the farming version of a scythe is simply poorly suited to deliver an effective attack against a wide variety of armors, you find that it truly is a weapon of desperation.

There are ways around these problems of course. To counter the problem of an utter lack of defense one could simply wear significant armor. Such a move is expensive and almost certainly out of the means of a peasant. To counter the problems of the basic style of attack one could add a spear point. To counter the relative useless of such a weapon against significant armor one could opt for a shorter, thicker and wider blade.

The solution to the problem of the scythe therefore is easy to see: one simply needs a better weapon that shares little with the scythe and armor that no farmer could afford.
Too long to read and I'm in a hurry. But I will say this- I have several antique scythes and sickles and I like them very much.
You on the other hand, have lots and lots of free time. Toodles. ;D
 

Pyro Paul

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Dan DePuy said:
As for the whole "kung fu bla bla farming implements yadda yadda" nonsense, that's a myth that is perpetuated by martial arts instructors and poorly dubbed movies. All weapons were developed with the intention of being weapons. Nobody ever picked up a trowel and thought "oh look! I can use this as a weapon! I'm going to dig the crap out of those bad guys!"
incorrect.

most weapons are developed from tools when farmers beset by raiders/pillagers/bad things turned to their tools and litterally said 'Oh look! i can use this as a weapon!'

almost every weapon melee weapon in existance has its orgin in tools.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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Pyro Paul said:
Dan DePuy said:
As for the whole "kung fu bla bla farming implements yadda yadda" nonsense, that's a myth that is perpetuated by martial arts instructors and poorly dubbed movies. All weapons were developed with the intention of being weapons. Nobody ever picked up a trowel and thought "oh look! I can use this as a weapon! I'm going to dig the crap out of those bad guys!"
incorrect.

most weapons are developed from tools when farmers beset by raiders/pillagers/bad things turned to their tools and litterally said 'Oh look! i can use this as a weapon!'

almost every weapon melee weapon in existance has its orgin in tools.
To be fair, a weapon is a tool. A great many weapons can, in fact, be leveraged for purposes other than warfare with little effort. A spear that is suitable for killing a man can be used for hunting as can any of a variety of bows. Any of a variety of axes meant for combat can also serve adequately as a wood clearing implement. In truth, of the weapons of antiquity, you only find a single type of weapon that was built from the ground up to kill other people: the sword. It makes a poor chopping tool, a poor clearing tool, an inadequate prying tool and a lousy hammering tool. But it does have the key advantage of being incredibly flexible on the battlefield, a feature that earned it the title of the queen of weapons.
 

kitolz

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Eclectic Dreck said:
To be fair, a weapon is a tool. A great many weapons can, in fact, be leveraged for purposes other than warfare with little effort. A spear that is suitable for killing a man can be used for hunting as can any of a variety of bows. Any of a variety of axes meant for combat can also serve adequately as a wood clearing implement. In truth, of the weapons of antiquity, you only find a single type of weapon that was built from the ground up to kill other people: the sword. It makes a poor chopping tool, a poor clearing tool, an inadequate prying tool and a lousy hammering tool. But it does have the key advantage of being incredibly flexible on the battlefield, a feature that earned it the title of the queen of weapons.
You'd think that a phallus shaped weapon would be called the king of weapons instead.
 

Abbyrose07

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Haseo from .hack//GU has multiple weapons he can use, one being Scythes...I've always thought it was his best weapon out of the three...imo.
 

Zeraiya

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Jul 16, 2011
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You forgot the scythe from Darksiders :O That was an awesome scythe...

EDIT: Nevermind...

Darksiders 2 is going to be awesome :p
 

thedoclc

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Sean951 said:
thedoclc said:
*Snip*
So yes in fantasy, no in Total War. The death symbolism, of death as the great harvester before whom all are cut down as so much wheat in the fall, pretty much guarantees it'll show up from time to time. Also, just the choice to use a scythe immediately tells you something about the character in universe. Instant characterization for the visually oriented or just plain lazy.
*Snip*
Total War... You mean that game with Roman ninjas and shield-less Spartans? I love the series, but they don't always follow realism and occasionally give in to the urge to put silly units in.
Relatively speaking. Total War, when compared to whatever passes for realism in games today, is practically an anal-retentive smarmy history grad student yelling at folks at the SCA for mixing 11th century blade cross-sections with 13th century pommels. Sure, they occasionally work in some silliness, but compared to almost every popular title I can think of, the TW series is very conservative and very strict.

Yes, niche titles may try even harder to follow historical data, but they are niche titles for a reason. I like rule of cool, damn it, and so do most gamers.
 

Bonecrusher

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teebeeohh said:
scythes are incredibly impractical weapons because due to their length they are rather cumbersome, their weight is not well balanced and they don't even use the advantage the length could give them.
sure death uses one but he is fucking death, he is past the point of practicality.
So yeah, go for scythes as focusing items for mages and/or scifi weapons that shoot multi-colored flavors of lightning but as a practical weapon? no.
People find Keyblade from Kingdom Hearts "iconic", Lancer Assault Rifle from Gears Of War "iconic", those weird chain-blades from God Of War "iconic", but when we talk about scythes, it suddenly becomes impractical. Awesome.


 

Mr Cwtchy

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My God, some of the people in this thread seem so pissed off about scythes that they must have one stuck up their arses.
 

teebeeohh

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Bonecrusher said:
teebeeohh said:
scythes are incredibly impractical weapons because due to their length they are rather cumbersome, their weight is not well balanced and they don't even use the advantage the length could give them.
sure death uses one but he is fucking death, he is past the point of practicality.
So yeah, go for scythes as focusing items for mages and/or scifi weapons that shoot multi-colored flavors of lightning but as a practical weapon? no.
People find Keyblade from Kingdom Hearts "iconic", Lancer Assault Rifle from Gears Of War "iconic", those weird chain-blades from God Of War "iconic", but when we talk about scythes, it suddenly becomes impractical. Awesome.


personally, i think all those things are kinda stupid and impractical but since the god of war blades are magical blades on magical chains magically grafted onto an angry mans arms(see where i am going with this?) i am a lot more OK with those than with a chainsaw attached to an assault rifle.
and for the horned demon my death argument pretty much applies
also: iconic does not in any way, shape or form relate to practicality, iconic just means that you see the thing and immediately think of the game they are in, no matter how impractical.
 

LucidNightmarez

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Most gamer's don't realy care if it's "impractical" in real life or not as long as it kick's ass in-game :p

And PS: How impractical would it be if you had a rifle empowering your swings (probably alot.. But thats not the point! It's still awesome >:I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYW2GmHB5xs