It would be good have proper forks in the road. Like you can either go through one area and not the other and it has different people and side-quests etc.Vausch said:
Secret to a Good Moral Choice System
- Thread starter Vausch
- Start date
Recommended Videos
I liked Catherine's karma system as it not good/evil but law/chaos. Also it tells you after what it is instead before so what you think may be lawful choice is actually chaotic.
For starters, GET RID OF THE FUCKING KARMA METER. It ruins choices by making them either good or bad. Or atleast, have the meter indicate something other then good vs bad. Chaos vs Lawfulness for example.
And make the choices carry more weight and hold deeper implications then "Which colour hat will the bad guys be wearing in the next room if I choose the good option?"
And make the choices carry more weight and hold deeper implications then "Which colour hat will the bad guys be wearing in the next room if I choose the good option?"
Moral choice systems are fine, but black/white 'good/neutral/bad' endings are absolutely terrible, abolish those and simulate more of the shades in between.
How about the seven sins/virtues instead?Odbarc said:
They are
[spoiler:virtues] Charity - Being Generous Towards Others. A willingness, or even desire, to help others and better the world, no matter the cost to your personal self. The path of a graceful and noble spirit. The Good Samaritan is this virtue personified. This virtue is the mainstay of The Atoner, and Hurting Hero. An extremely strong sense of Charity, to the point that it overcomes common sense, becomes Honor Before Reason. Using this virtue as an excuse for suicidal tendencies or poor planning results in Martyr Without a Cause, although in a Martyrdom Culture this virtue will more easily extend to a Death Seeker. Opposite of Avarice.
Chastity - Being Unhindered by Worldly Desires. The ability to overcome temptation and show self-discipline. Note that the fulfillment of the virtue is not through lack of being tempted, but rather of making the conscious decision to better yourself rather than do what you know is morally wrong. This virtue is especially popular with Knight in Shining Armor types and any who choose to become The Fettered. Opposite of Lust.
Diligence - Being Steadfast in Work. Despite the problems that surface, no matter what stands in their way, one with this virtue will accomplish their goals and stay true to their core beliefs. If there is work to be done, they will do their best to get it finished, and properly. This is a common trait of The Cape and those that have Jumped at the Call. This is also the virtue most likely to be held by the Anti-Hero. Opposite of Sloth.
Humility - Being Modest in Self. What is fame, but a trapping for the weak? While those with this virtue may not seem like much at first, when all bets are down they will triumph over the loud and crass - if not in sheer power, then at least in poise. This virtue in its purest form is not self-hatred (a common mistake made by those with good intentions but self-esteem problems), but rather a sense of inner knowledge that one does not need to prove their greatness/badassitude to the outside world to actually be great/Badass. The Supporting Leader, The Cowl, and The Drifter often personify this trope. When used to an extreme, may result in Obfuscating Stupidity. Opposite of Pride.
Kindness - Being Good Towards All Life. Everything will be okay somehow! is the motto of those that follow this virtue. Whether times are good or tough, those holding this virtue true to heart will endure in wishing the best for everyone. Embodied by the Broken Hero and The Pollyanna as well as the Friend to All Living Things. Leveling up this virtue to max grants the ability Care Bear Stare. While this virtue may seem light-hearted, beware: if the strength of this virtue in a cute person is not enough, yet they depend on it in the face of adversity, it will Break the Cutie. Opposite of Envy.
Patience - Being Peaceful in Goal. A willingness to forgive and show mercy. In the face of adversity they may hesitate, but in the end they will endorse stability, reject revenge, and accept the faults of others without prejudice. This virtue is almost always held by The Medic, Actual Pacifists, and the Iron Woobie. The major fight involving this virtue will involve sheathing your sword. And if, in the end, a true follower of this virtue cannot win the fight on their terms, they will Face Death with Dignity. Opposite of Wrath.
Temperance - Being Controlled in Self. The moral decision slopes encountered through life are slippery, and it is easy to descend into unintended but well intentioned extremism. That analogy considered, this virtue is like using crampons made out of justice. Those in command of this virtue realize the legitimacy in several different points of view, and maintain a neutral perspective dealing with issues that might cause Heroic BSOD in others. This virtue often leads to being able to Take a Third Option. This virtue is a specialty of a Badass Pacifist and usually the Guile Hero. Opposite of Gluttony.[/spoiler]
and
[spoiler:sins]Avarice - Desire for Things. Often simply referred to as greed, but avarice includes spending money pointlessly as well as hoarding it. An oft-misquoted passage in The Bible says that "the love of money is the root of many kinds of evil." In 3rd century AD, Christians used the acronym ROMA as a veiled insult against the Empire. What was ROMA? Radix Omnium Malorum Avaritia, or: the Root of All Evil is Greed. This one is popular amongst Rich Bitches, Corrupt Corporate Executives, the Diabolical Mastermind and anyone who would say Screw the Rules; I Have Money!. When treated as a vital part of the economy rather than a sin, it's called "the profit motive". Greed is usually associated with frogs and the color yellow. The punishment in Hell for this is to be forced to eat molten gold. The patron demon of Avarice is Mammon (as in the Mammon Machine), and its corresponding (i.e. opposite) virtue is Charity.
Envy - Desire for other people's things. Or simply hatred of others' good fortune. Hey, sometimes others get the cool stuff first. Doesn't stop you from wanting it. Those that act on this tend to be thieves of any stripe, be it a Gentleman Thief, a Classy Cat Burglar, a highwayman, or a plagiarist. Other villains who qualify include The Resenter, the Clingy Jealous Girl or Crazy Jealous Guy, the Fairest of Them All, the Yandere and anyone who murders the hypotenuse. What separates Envy from simple Jealousy (the modern use of jealousy anywaysnote ) is that Envy is Jealousy with a malicious desire to harm or punish the person you're jealous of. It is also known by the name of schadenfreude, or sorrow-joy; simply put it means joy at another's suffering. Envy is usually associated with dogs or goats and the color green. The punishment in Hell for committing this sin is to be put in ice-cold water. The patron demon of Envy is either Leviathan or Belial, and its corresponding virtue is Kindness.
Gluttony - Desire for Excess. In pop culture, this sin is almost always associated with overeating, which is a start, but theologically it applies to overconsumption of anything. Taking more than your share is a key part, as is wasting the excess. It has also been equated with any kind of addiction in modern times. This is one of the sins more likely to appear in heroic characters - after all, Big Eaters are funny, and their obvious extension Extreme Omnivore is even funnier. Also, this might explain why so many tropes have food in their names while having nothing to do with food. The most villainous practitioners of this sin typically say I'm a Humanitarian. Gluttony is usually associated with pigs and the color orange. The punishment in Hell for committing this sin is to eat rats, snakes and toads. The patron demon of Gluttony is Beelzebub, or possibly Behemoth, and its corresponding virtue is Temperance.
Lust - Desire for Pleasure. It's the desire to know someone Biblically, but traditionally included all other sins of physical desire or luxury (such as drug addiction), not just sex. How evil this is depends often on the author's view of sex. Authors with a much more positive view of the matter will show this trope via Lovable Sex Maniacs and occasional bouts of Deus Sex Machina, and maybe a Parental Bonus if the work is theoretically for kids. Authors more negative on the concept will say No Sex Allowed, Evil Is Sexy (possibly reversed to "Sexy is Evil"), or Death by Sex. The worst practitioners of this sin are usually predators of some kind who prey on others, like the Stalker with a Crush, those who practice Villainous Incest, the Combat Sadomasochist, the vilest of Serial Killers or the villain who says "I Have You Now, My Pretty". Hedonists, villainous or otherwise, are always motivated by Lust. Lust is usually associated with cows, bulls, cocks... er, roosters or goats, and the color blue. The punishment in Hell for committing this sin is to be covered in fire and brimstone. The patron demon of Lust is Asmodeus, and its corresponding virtue is Chastitynote .
Lust is often the odd one out in Anthropomorphic Personifications of the seven. The other six are typically personified as practicing the sin (as say, a Narcoleptic, a Big Eater, a Kleptomaniac, a Green-Eyed Monster, a Miles Gloriosus and a Berserker) whereas Lust is usually personified in a form that inspires lust (Mr or Ms. Fanservice rather than one that embodies lust (like a Memetic Molester). Partly because Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil, and a character that went around trying to shag Anything That Moves might not be sympathetic of Family Friendly enough for the work in question, but usually just it's more entertaining that way.
Pride - Desire for Attention. Often said to be the big one, as "pride cometh before a fall." However the kicker is not merely to be prideful, but to additionally not deserve it. Traditionally the most vile of the Seven Deadly Sins, it was the one that corrupted Satan as it involves placing yourself above God (or whatever deity you're invoking) and all others. In fact, pretty much every villain, in part, is motivated by pride - the idea is, they'd make things work better than what's going on now. So, they feel it's only right they should Take Over the World. The ones more blatant about it are the Evil Overlord, the Nietzsche Wannabe, and the Corrupt Hick. Villains who more generally convey this sin are the Smug Snake, the Narcissist or The Fighting Narcissist, the Alpha *****, the Know-Nothing Know-It-All, the Card-Carrying Villain, the Vain Sorceress, the Attention Whore, corrupt royalty of all kinds, those with a small name and big ego and anyone who says "It's All About Me" or worse, asks "A God Am I". By definition, it is the one Sin that prevents the sinner from repentance, as they are too proud to admit that they were wrong. Termed "self-respect" when treated as a virtue. Pride is usually associated with horses or peacocks and the color purple. The punishment in Hell for committing this sin is to be put on a breaking wheel, which basically amounts to having your limbs crushed. The patron demon for Pride is, understandably, Lucifer, and its corresponding virtue is, again understandably, Humility.
Sloth - Desire for Rest. The reason this entry didn't come into existence earlier despite the fact that everyone liked the idea, sloth is the lack of desire to actually do some work. This one isn't possessed by villains often (they have to get the plot going, after all), but if heroes possess too much of it the Big Bad will find it much easier to succeed. Sometimes this results in a Refusal of The Call, and more than one creator who got their facts wrong has been accused of this. While obviously not main characters, Apathetic Citizens are clearly slothful. The Brilliant, but Lazy types are always guilty of this sin. The Dumb Blonde and the Brainless Beauty may not be so much lacking in intelligence as too slothful to cultivate it. The characters most frequently guilty of this sin, however, are either Heavy Sleepers or Sleepyheads. More villainous examples of sloth are usually manipulators of some kind, who find it easier to manipulate others into doing their bidding rather than do any work themselves. These include the Non-Action Big Bad, Orcus on His Throne, the Corrupt Bureaucrat, The Chessmaster, The Corrupter, the Magnificent and Manipulative Bastard, the Smug Snake and anyone who commits the Slouch of Villainy. It is also worth noting that Sloth also covers moral/spiritual laziness; idealism is too much work. Frequently results from the Despair Event Horizon; in fact, the sin of Despair was classified under this because to despair is to give up note . Notably, Sloth is also associated with a Lack of Empathy. Early papal creeds against the sin mostly classified it as knowing the right thing and failing to do it. Sloth is often ranked high in the deadly sins because of this sinister and far more actively destructive side of its nature - it destroys Time itself. Sloth is usually associated with goats or donkeys and the color light blue. The punishment in Hell for committing this sin is to be thrown into a pit of snakes. The patron demon of Sloth is a little-known figure named Belphegor, and its corresponding virtue is Diligence.
Wrath - Desire for Harm. This is rage taken up a few dozen notches, combined with blood-thirstiness and a general appreciation of too much violence. It can be easily seen in a Blood Knight, during an Unstoppable Rage, and in general anyone with a Berserk Button. It's also a common problem of those who seek revenge. Hatred and racism (fantastic or otherwise) can also fall under this. The worst practitioners of Wrath are the Omnicidal Maniac and anyone who wants to Kill 'Em All. Wrath is usually associated with bulls, bears and the color red. The punishment in Hell for committing this sin is to be dismembered while still alive. The patron demon of Wrath is either Satan, Amon, or Moloch, and its corresponding virtue is Patience.[/spoiler]
That'd work, but can you imagine how many endings this requires? About fourteen as a basis, to consider all potential extremes. That's... quite a lot.knight steel said:
The best morality system is one that doesn't have a catch all metre. The consequences of an action should actually be consequences for that action and changes in how others react to you. Not arbitrary restrictions or talking choice away from you at the end. DA:O tacked you how much your companions liked you based on your actions and dialogue, that was good.
The mass effect system was horrible. It locked you out of options if you didn?t stick to one or the other enough for no apparent reason and sometimes the paragon option even sounded more renegade than the renegade option, like threatening to break someones legs. Why can you only do that if you have enough paragon points?Zeriphor said:
Not do them.
In all seriousness, offer choices that change plot points, but don't put it on a scale of good/evil, since those are just a matter of perspective.
In all seriousness, offer choices that change plot points, but don't put it on a scale of good/evil, since those are just a matter of perspective.
I agree with the consensus here that the binary good/evil moral choice system is played out at best, and at worst, it was never a good idea to begin with.
What I think would be interesting is to give real moral choices to players, such as if you are playing a soldier behind enemy lines, you are given the option of capturing enemies that surrender at the cost of a potential failure of your mission, or of simply executing them.
Sure, the "right" choice would be to capture them, but if you do so and your larger mission fails, could that end up costing even more lives than you saved?
Then, the game should force players to live by their own decisions, and suffer the consequences. It is one thing to make a decision in a dialogue box, and another to potentially face a greater in-game challenge in order to play by the moral decisions you make. Just like how in life it is easy to speak of morality, but much harder to live by it.
What I think would be interesting is to give real moral choices to players, such as if you are playing a soldier behind enemy lines, you are given the option of capturing enemies that surrender at the cost of a potential failure of your mission, or of simply executing them.
Sure, the "right" choice would be to capture them, but if you do so and your larger mission fails, could that end up costing even more lives than you saved?
Then, the game should force players to live by their own decisions, and suffer the consequences. It is one thing to make a decision in a dialogue box, and another to potentially face a greater in-game challenge in order to play by the moral decisions you make. Just like how in life it is easy to speak of morality, but much harder to live by it.
That's even worse. XDNorrdicus said:
The only way this would work is if each extreme has its own definitive ending, but each hybrid would need to made up of spliced sections of every other ending, a bit like Dead Money's variable narration chunks depending on who you've saved or trusted.
I know but it would be worth it ^_^ Plus if we could have the values effect the actual game play (not just reputation and reaction from people but instead actually effecting how game play mechanics work-like perks from fallout) that would be great!IamLEAM1983 said:
My personal fav moral choice system was Alpha Protocals. Rather than having the good/bad options all you had was reputation with the different charaters. On top on that the reputation system worked both ways, so being hated or loved or neutral could all provide their own benifits/costs and making someone love you would often come at the risk of alienating someone else, if you wanted it too. Far more importantly though the only hint you got of what would affect your relationhip with them was what you had observed of thier charater, no colour coding or top/bottem systems, sometimes they may prefer the professional other times the aggressive. Finally the choices that actually shaped the way the games story played out where totally down to you, no THIS IS EBIL warning. Finally I liked the timer on the consersavtion options as it meant you had to think on your feet rather than just alt tabing to the wiki to see which choice gave you the best gun.
WALL OF TEXT!!!!!!!!
WALL OF TEXT!!!!!!!!
Morality is not simple.
And I think moral choices in games should reflect this, giving you more options than "Save this baby." "Walk away from the baby." and "Consume the delectable child." There should be reasonable, meaningful options that aren't as clear as day.
Obsidian is good at things like this, so I'm going to point at New Vegas and KotORII as examples of good morality systems. Granted, the Light Side/Dark Side meter in K2 made it a bit weird. Aside from the whole unfinished part.
And I think moral choices in games should reflect this, giving you more options than "Save this baby." "Walk away from the baby." and "Consume the delectable child." There should be reasonable, meaningful options that aren't as clear as day.
Obsidian is good at things like this, so I'm going to point at New Vegas and KotORII as examples of good morality systems. Granted, the Light Side/Dark Side meter in K2 made it a bit weird. Aside from the whole unfinished part.
That's a large part of what I mean when I say they screwed it up. They came up with this great idea where players could choose between pragmatism and idealism instead of the simplistic good and evil. Then they went and made your choices rarely have an effect and you had to stick to one side to even be able to use it later in the game.DementedSheep said:
I guess I'll just pull out the Geneforge again.
Rather than basing the choices on "good" or "evil", Geneforge picked an interesting ethical dilemma, fleshed it out, then asked your opinion. When grilled by characters for your opinions, your options were "I agree with how things are", "I think things must be changed", and "Uhhh... I have something in the oven". And the options had results that came to bite you waaaaaaaaaaay later in the game.
That's how "morality" systems should work, methinks.
Rather than basing the choices on "good" or "evil", Geneforge picked an interesting ethical dilemma, fleshed it out, then asked your opinion. When grilled by characters for your opinions, your options were "I agree with how things are", "I think things must be changed", and "Uhhh... I have something in the oven". And the options had results that came to bite you waaaaaaaaaaay later in the game.
That's how "morality" systems should work, methinks.
If they could start by not resembling the Escapist Quizzes (and the Internet in general) that would be a start. Complete transparency is what kills it. When people don't know the results of what they're doing, that is when it will work.
actually there are benefits to Caesar's reign.Pandabearparade said:
For 1 peace and stability once everything is over and doone with. Sure, while they are conquering they seem overly brutal, but fear can win wars just as well as any gun(or machete in the legion's case. Rome did everything the legion does and did it first, do we condemn them? No we don't, hell Romans killed Jesus(only an argument if you are catholic but hey)! yet we still love Rome and yet we still act like they were the best thing before sliced bread. They aren't overextending themselves unlike the NCR, they care about all of 'merica not one little city and well there are very few aarguments for yes man.