self righteousness and the escapist

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

Aaaaand... BINGO! I think I counted all of the current Buzzwords in that one.

Of course people are self-righteous on the internet. They can say what they want in a 'fire-and'forget' mode, with no repercussion. They can type in constant extremes, thinking about what they say and how they say it without the pressures of having to think on the spot and say what they really feel like in actual conversation. They don't have to deal with the fallout of insulting someone face to face, and don't even have to see the response from their probable misguided opinion. They get to make their point and juctice is served.

You then take the demographics of this site into consideration. We like games. We like geeky shit. We were probably (as a collective) in the upper third of our school academically but the bottom third socially, and we didn't care. We concocted opinions and morals silently without sharing them... and then... BOOM. a medium came where we could express ourselves without the awkwardness that came when we tried in real life. We were not conditioned to this type of discussionary interaction, and we are probably doing it wrong. Then again, we have been for years, and it is now the norm.

It is probably safe to say that a majority of people here are those who shy away from conversations such as the ones here in real life. I know I do. I am one to avoid conflict in my life, but on occasion can be drawn into arguments online where I will say things in ways I would never dare if sitting in an actual group.

An example I have from this site that backs this is in the user groups. I was a member of some of the bigger active groups like the Brovengers and the Injustice League and the discussion in those, whilst usually civil, could get heated, partucularily when discussing something with opinionated. On the other side I attend the UK Escapism meets (when work allows me) and am a memeber of that group. Nearly everyone in there has met others in real life, or will at some point and that is why they joined the group. The way people talk and act there is very different and is always civil. Then in real life, at those meets, there are never actual heated opinionated discussions that aren't quicky reduced do to the effect real life and tact has on the situation.

So, all in all, hiding behind a screen pouring your inner thoughts and feelings that have been brewing over time definitely changes the way you act around others, and the way you would usually tackle a subject.

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with this.

I mean, every website is known for something with regards to the community, and here it just happens to be snobbery. This place has always had that moniker and all you need to do is take a poke at the forums and that will become clear quickly. That doesn't mean that there aren't awesome people around here and that it's mostly dickbags. I knew about this site's reputation when I was still lurking around here, so this isn't new.

This just happens to be a medium that people are passionate about, which tends to also include being passionate about games that they don't like for various reasons. When the forums allow for the discussions that we're able to have, self-righteousness tends top pop up more often than not.

So, I would imagine that this place being labeled as such will not go away any time soon.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

I love the Escapist for debates. I've always believed you can learn a lot debating. If you don't feel like you can 'win' your side of the debate then maybe you need to rethink what you believe and adjust accordingly. And for that you need someone who believes the opposite to debate with and help you grow as a person. But most of the net turns into shitflinging insult matches rather than debates. So the escapist is great, the other guy might want to call you a dickhead and leave it at that but he can't due to forum rules so instead he simply tells you 'why' you're a dickhead which leads to jolly debate!

 

[BloatedGuppy]

They can argue their point with 10% logic/reason and 90% snark, condescension, and sarcasm. All very much the bottom tier of wit.

Come now. I'm sure we can agree that the bottom tier of wit is still puns and making fart noises with your armpit.

 

[Ishal]

They can argue their point with 10% logic/reason and 90% snark, condescension, and sarcasm. All very much the bottom tier of wit.

Come now. I'm sure we can agree that the bottom tier of wit is still puns and making fart noises with your armpit.

The bottom tier is quite large. Perfectly able to include both.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

People in general are self-righteous. Most people believe that they're right, it's the human condition. It isn't specific to here.

For example, your post here can be taken as handwaving and stereotyping the community based on your own anecdotal experiences as self-righteous and arrogant itself. Especially as you decide that you're not only able to evaluate the entire community as a whole but can also compare it to some imagined norm as being above or below said average.

We're turtles all the way down, man.

This is probably the best response I've seen so far.

Anyways, everyone has a tendency to be self-righteous at times, there are no exceptions to this. I've met self-righteous alcoholic homeless people, en mass.[footnote]I was homeless for a time my self[/footnote] That being said the Escapist forums is one of the few places on the Internet that I've actually seen people argue and debate reasonably. People here don't blatantly troll, they'll at least give sources posted a glance, they'll actually counter with facts more often than not, even if the facts are known to be untrue by more reputable sources...

Heck I've seen debates where people actually learn things, I've learned things from debates on this site. Sure some people will post snarky, sarcastic, and condescending posts, but even then most of the community isn't like that, at least not always. Lots of people here disagree on anything, even when they actually agree, because people tend to like to argue, and this is a pretty friendly place to do it.

Now back to self-righteousness, I'm just being honest saying this, people are self-righteous period, and tend to display it on their sleeves with favored causes. That's just how people are, because of this and the fact of the nature of the Internet, people tend to be more vocal about it online, the Escapist is no different in these respects. Heck, I've seen a lot of self-righteousness even in this thread... It's still better than the vast majority of the internet where people just toss insults when their opinion is challenged.

 

[Overusedname]

I will never understand how people call this an echo chamber. Everyone, even the writers and reporters for the site, disagree with eachother all the time. That's actually kind of unorthadox for gaming sites. Either it's like Kotaku and dissenting opinions get bullied out, or it's like Screwattack and the big sites like IGN and the community has no real voice to begin with.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but I kind of like the conflict sometimes. Some disagreement is healthy. I've never felt like there was some kind of moral majority here. Makes it more interesting when both sides present decent arguments.

 

[Drathnoxis]

As for the self-righteous reputation? I believe part if it was embraced by the staff, the site was once called "the last bastion of intelligence on the internet"

I'm glad someone brought up the "last bastion" thing.

I never really cared for that.

Is that actually true, was that an actual tagline for the site? I always thought that was a slogan that someone on the forums made up. Does anybody have any know the time frame when this was used in an official capacity on the site or have any sources that confirm it?



OT: As for the site being an echo chamber, I believe that is a result of the moderation system. The people with unpopular opinions usually post them and then are ganged up on by people with opposing beliefs. This results in the person with the unpopular opinion either feeling overwhelmed and losing their temper or being baited by passive aggressive comments into breaking the CoC. Repeat until banned. Then the people on the winning side feel better about the site because the bad opinions have been banished, thus proving that their opinions are the most level headed and righteous.

From what I see here, the forums have actually become a bit more level-headed because users like Sung-Hwan, Zeel and EternalNothingness have left.

Actually, only Sung-Hwan left of his own free will. Both Zeel and EternalNothingness(Commander_PonyShep) were banned.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

snip

You know when you bookmark a website it sometimes shows you a phrase after the site title? That's where it was written, though unfortunately I don't have a screenshot or anything to confirm it.

 

[Drathnoxis]

snip

You know when you bookmark a website it sometimes shows you a phrase after the site title? That's where it was written, though unfortunately I don't have a screenshot or anything to confirm it.

Do you still have a bookmark that gives the tagline? If so could you give me the link, so that I'll know the when the site was using the tagline? If not do you know the approximate time frame that you made the bookmark? I might be able to find an archived page that would give the tagline on wayback machine if I knew when to look. Also, was it a bookmark for the forums, video, news, or frontpage?

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

snip

I don't have a bookmark that old, it was a long time ago, however I did dig up this on Encyclopedia Dramatica. [https://encyclopediadramatica.se/index.php?title=Encyclopedia_Dramatica:Needed/Proposed&diff=531684&oldid=prev]

"Is there anyone on ED currently working on or planning to make an article for The Escapist site? Because I'm surprised that a site that used to advertise itself as "The last bastion of intelligence on the internet" and whose forums consist mostly of leftards and biodrones doesn't have an article here. [[User:Arcticphoenix95|Arcticphoenix95]] 03:11, 18 May 2013"

So for what it's worth, the tagline predates May 2013. There's also a reddit that mentions that specific tagline [http://www.reddit.com/r/cringepics/comments/1e4lib/this_guy_wants_forum_members_to_choose_his_new/] dating back to two years ago (2013).

While it's not confirmation, it at least provides a rough time frame between 2009 (when my account was created) and 2013 by which time, it was no longer in use. The tagline was for the front page, on the old layout.


Edit: I did also run across this old thread, made in 2010 claiming the title comes from a pub club member [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.205983-We-the-people-of-the-escapist-forums-need-a-Title?page=1] Which makes me doubt my own memories, unless the website adopted that tagline, which narrows down the time frame. I wasn't very active on the forums back in 2010, leading me to believe I didn't read it there.

--------------------------------------------
OT: While all the searching doesn't much help to show whether "The last bastion of intelligence on the internet" was made up by the community back in 2010 or was an official tagline, it does however, prove the self righteous reputation goes back at least six years.

 

[veloper]

There is also such a thing as looking for information, but arguing is the wrong way to go about it.

Debating and arguing aren't always the same thing.

The goal is different, but both are not effective ways to learn new information. Google or a neutral question in the right place is much faster.

The closest you can get is by trolling for information, where you let others argue for you, hopefully bringing some knowledge with them, while you stay out of it after posting an inviting* piece.

 

[veloper]

No really, the point of debate is to make your opponent look bad in front of an audience. This is what trolls do for laughs.

Unfortunately not just trolls - people who genuinely believe they're in the right will apply it as best they can. I was part of a British Politics group on Facebook till very recently, and I learned two very important lessons that caused me to leave.

Now we're just one step away from politicians, who do this for a living.

It makes sense though.

You want something and you need support for it (voters in this case), so you want to appear better than your opponent= your opponent looks worse than you.
What will keep the debate within some civilized bounds are the expectations and limits of the audience.

 

[shrekfan246]

There is also such a thing as looking for information, but arguing is the wrong way to go about it.

Debating and arguing aren't always the same thing.

The goal is different, but both are not effective ways to learn new information. Google or a neutral question in the right place is much faster.

The closest you can get is by trolling for information, where you let others argue for you, hopefully bringing some knowledge with them, while you stay out of it after posting an inviting* piece.

Faster, perhaps, but I'd say less rewarding. Though maybe I have a less cynical perspective than you (which is not something I can often say, I should note).

Not that I would deny most debates on the internet are held in bad faith and turn into arguments eventually, but they don't have to turn that way and I very much appreciate having discussions with people that actually do lead to my or others' learning more. I've never understood the appeal of trolling, so it's very rare that I engage in a discussion/debate/argument/whatever without the intention of actually challenging my own or another person's stated ideas, regardless of how willing they are to do the same.

 

[veloper]

There is also such a thing as looking for information, but arguing is the wrong way to go about it.

Debating and arguing aren't always the same thing.

The goal is different, but both are not effective ways to learn new information. Google or a neutral question in the right place is much faster.

The closest you can get is by trolling for information, where you let others argue for you, hopefully bringing some knowledge with them, while you stay out of it after posting an inviting* piece.

Faster, perhaps, but I'd say less rewarding. Though maybe I have a less cynical perspective than you (which is not something I can often say, I should note).

Not that I would deny most debates on the internet are held in bad faith and turn into arguments eventually, but they don't have to turn that way and I very much appreciate having discussions with people that actually do lead to my or others' learning more. I've never understood the appeal of trolling, so it's very rare that I engage in a discussion/debate/argument/whatever without the intention of actually challenging my own or another person's stated ideas, regardless of how willing they are to do the same.

How cynical? I just know what to expect and what I'm doing.
For me the aim of the game is fun, any accidental new insight is just a bonus.

That doesn't mean it is not fun when a discussion is taken to a higher level and I also respect some boundaries, but the goal is still the same.

Face it: trying to actually convince anonymous strangers on the internet of something, is both pointless and unlikely to succeed.
The challenge part is good, but the bit about learning anything is rather optimistic.

 

[shrekfan246]

There is also such a thing as looking for information, but arguing is the wrong way to go about it.

Debating and arguing aren't always the same thing.

The goal is different, but both are not effective ways to learn new information. Google or a neutral question in the right place is much faster.

The closest you can get is by trolling for information, where you let others argue for you, hopefully bringing some knowledge with them, while you stay out of it after posting an inviting* piece.

Faster, perhaps, but I'd say less rewarding. Though maybe I have a less cynical perspective than you (which is not something I can often say, I should note).

Not that I would deny most debates on the internet are held in bad faith and turn into arguments eventually, but they don't have to turn that way and I very much appreciate having discussions with people that actually do lead to my or others' learning more. I've never understood the appeal of trolling, so it's very rare that I engage in a discussion/debate/argument/whatever without the intention of actually challenging my own or another person's stated ideas, regardless of how willing they are to do the same.

How cynical? I just know what to expect and what I'm doing.
For me the aim of the game is fun, any accidental new insight is just a bonus.

The difference, I suppose, is that I don't find trolling "fun".

Face it:

I'm not sure why you're trying to frame this as if it's something I don't know, but--

trying to actually convince anonymous strangers on the internet of something, is both pointless and unlikely to succeed.

--I should clarify that I generally don't actually get into internet arguments for exactly that reason.

The challenge part is good, but the bit about learning anything is rather optimistic.

And? If more people were willing to actually allow themselves to be challenged and learn and grow from their silly internet spats, perhaps the average level of discourse would be much higher. I'd prefer to live in a world where the mere mention of Anita Sarkeesian doesn't bring the gaming community to its metaphorical knees in frothing rage.

 

[veloper]

There is also such a thing as looking for information, but arguing is the wrong way to go about it.

Debating and arguing aren't always the same thing.

The goal is different, but both are not effective ways to learn new information. Google or a neutral question in the right place is much faster.

The closest you can get is by trolling for information, where you let others argue for you, hopefully bringing some knowledge with them, while you stay out of it after posting an inviting* piece.

Faster, perhaps, but I'd say less rewarding. Though maybe I have a less cynical perspective than you (which is not something I can often say, I should note).

Not that I would deny most debates on the internet are held in bad faith and turn into arguments eventually, but they don't have to turn that way and I very much appreciate having discussions with people that actually do lead to my or others' learning more. I've never understood the appeal of trolling, so it's very rare that I engage in a discussion/debate/argument/whatever without the intention of actually challenging my own or another person's stated ideas, regardless of how willing they are to do the same.

How cynical? I just know what to expect and what I'm doing.
For me the aim of the game is fun, any accidental new insight is just a bonus.

The difference, I suppose, is that I don't find trolling "fun".

Face it:

I'm not sure why you're trying to frame this as if it's something I don't know, but--

trying to actually convince anonymous strangers on the internet of something, is both pointless and unlikely to succeed.

--I should clarify that I generally don't actually get into internet arguments for exactly that reason.

The challenge part is good, but the bit about learning anything is rather optimistic.

And? If more people were willing to actually allow themselves to be challenged and learn and grow from their silly internet spats, perhaps the average level of discourse would be much higher. I'd prefer to live in a world where the mere mention of Anita Sarkeesian doesn't bring the gaming community to its metaphorical knees in frothing rage.

We can't change gamers, so all we can do about it is nothing or laugh.

Lots of fools, with nobody actually getting hurt, means many silly gems waiting to be found. Trolls encourage the fools.

 

[Vigormortis]

I...I might have been here so long that it doesn't even register on the radar anymore. I mean I know what you're talking about particularly the snark, condescension, and sarcasm, [footnote]passive aggressive, indirect jabs to avoid modwrath[/footnote] it used to get under my skin but eventually it just... stopped. Kind of like working in retail, it's a shitty job, you know it's a shitty job but after a few years you get used to it. It's interesting how different internet communities have their own way of interacting, as you said, it really is like chocolate vs vanilla.

I'm the same way. I've been here so long that the snark and condescension just don't register with me anymore. I see it all as 'par for the course'. Something I just know will be present in some posters comments. It also helps that I came to terms with the idea of using the 'block' feature for some posters. (I tend to try to avoid the feature as I don't necessarily like the idea of blocking someone just because we disagree on a point. Though, I've often wondered how many other posters have me on their block lists.)

The user base has shifted and changed quite a lot since I joined, but I think I've made my stance on a number of subjects quite clear over the years, so I rarely feel the need to rehash it in every argument or debate that pops up.

That, however, doesn't really stop me from wanting to call people on their bullshit. I don't care which side of a debate you take, if you're spouting nonsense I'm gonna call you on it.

I kind of miss Sung-Hwan and EternalNothingness. I mean, they were batshit crazy, but absolutely hilarious.

Man, I loved how Sung-Hwan could pretend to be completely level-headed, and looking for a discussion, but when he was presented with anything other than his precise opinion and total agreement (which never happened, because his opinions were always insane), it was as if there was a bug in his programming, and he just...broke. Became completely incapable of storing or processing any new information.

Come to think of it, he was kind of like every bad internet user, but on steroids.

Zeel was good for a laugh some of the time. For me he was, anyway.

That is, until I realized he wasn't just a troll presenting a bit of performance art about overzealous opinion debates and the dangers of internet anonymity, but rather someone who was genuinely antagonistic and unstable.

That's why "Sonic '06 is objectively better than Portal" will forever be the only thread I've made that had any sort of forum success.

I remember that one. Good times.

OT: "Have become" is the part that gave me a chuckle from OP. I was reading people saying The Escapist was nothing but passive-aggressive snark and snobbery and elitism back in 2011. I wouldn't really say it's gotten better since then.

I've been here since '07. I can assure you it's not much different now than it was then. The 'general consensus' on certain topics may have shifted, but the overall tone, behavior, and attitude of the site, forums, and posters are very much as they've always been.

 

[Frission]

The Escapist is actually pretty good at forcing you get meet posters who may not necessarily agree with you and even gives them a platform to elaborate.

That's one of the perks of this site really, no matter what anyone says.

EDIT: In fact I'm absolutely right and in this regard and you're wrong. Everyone must agree with me!

Zeel was good for a laugh some of the time. For me he was, anyway.

That is, until I realized he wasn't just a troll presenting a bit of performance art about overzealous opinion debates and the dangers of internet anonymity, but rather someone who was genuinely antagonistic and unstable.

Didn't he manage to get unbanned at one point, only to get banned again on the very same day? That was weird.

 

[Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)]

From what I see here, the forums have actually become a bit more level-headed because users like Sung-Hwan, Zeel and EternalNothingness have left.

I kind of miss Sung-Hwan and EternalNothingness. I mean, they were batshit crazy, but absolutely hilarious.

Man, I loved how Sung-Hwan could pretend to be completely level-headed, and looking for a discussion, but when he was presented with anything other than his precise opinion and total agreement (which never happened, because his opinions were always insane), it was as if there was a bug in his programming, and he just...broke. Became completely incapable of storing or processing any new information.

Come to think of it, he was kind of like every bad internet user, but on steroids.

if we're going to talk about self-righteous members who were banned then we have to talk about Dholland662. that guy was completely crazy you may have not heard about him because he mostly hung around the religion and politics section but man. One time he compared immigration to when China took over Tibet and said if we support Tibet freedom we should be against immigration. I am not kidding!