I'm a christian. I could never do that, I find it incredible how people go against instinct to have 'eternal life'. Insane.StormShaun said:
Selling games with sex
- Thread starter Eric the Orange
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Wait.... What? Like... WHAT?Eric the Orange said:
Lesse...
Ellis? Well yeah, we see her first as a little kid about.. what.. six? Seven? Next time we get to see her she enters her teens... and she will likely stay there for a few generations given her huge lifespan as a High Elf.
Vira-Lorr? Pre-teen? LOLWUT?
Dyshana... uhm........ like... No?
Fyuria.. okay, agreed there, she looks a bit young.
Luana.. she looks a bit like a late teeny.
Elaine? Just... No. She's likely older then Leon is..
Valeria, just.. no. She's a pretty woman but defenitly no teen anymore.
Yayoi.. well, if you want to nitpick a bit, okay.
Sherufanir.. No. Fuggin. Way.
Sharona.. milf, anyone?
Lavinia.. hot busty redhead elf.. not exactly what I would declare a pre-teen.
Faina.. a bit meek and frail perhaps.
Noah? A teeny, yes. Pre-teen? No. Just no.
Plum? Okay, loli-mode much. Though she's bassicly a fairy.
Hilda.. No, again, she's likely way older then you are.
Sily.. she's cute. A bit too cute perhaps.
Ryuryu, loli mode again.
Qua.. a bit of furrybait perhaps with those ears.
Reverie.. late tennys, perhaps? Early twentys?
Beatrice.. hot ninja babe.. early twentys.
Murmina.. something between loli and teeny.
That makes... if you want to nitpick hard.. Four. Out of 21. /golfclap
I'm sorry, but women wouldn't "hold up" in a fight anyway. Although I have a black belt in Taekwon-Do, I'm not really that good, but I have trained and sparred with women that were world class and they just don't stand a chance.shrekfan246 said:
Furthermore, while I don't know what outfit you are referring to specifically, I would like to point out that wearing almost nothing in a fighting game is actually pretty viable. In a lot of martial arts people are wearing only shorts (boxing, kickboxing), leotards (wrestling), or light "suits" that provide no protection (Taekwon-Do, karate, kung fu, etc.).
Also, it's not like the men aren't oversexualized and exaggerated. They are often not wearing shirts either, and they are extremely muscular.
Finally, a lot of (fighting) games have a very over-the-top style. It applies to men, women, jumping heights, "fatalities", everything...
haddaway234 said:
I don't have evidence right now, but I'm fairly sure that haddaway is right. I believe I once read something about the brain basically being hardwired to be more interested in beautiful people. Research has also shown that beautiful people are generally thought of as nicer, smarter, more likable and more successful. Even though we're not always thinking about how we'd like to "hit that", I think that in general most people will find it more pleasant to look at attractive people.Eric the Orange said:
Of course, I can't speak for others, but I know that this applies to myself at least. But I very strongly suspect that I'm not the only one. As for why game developers put beautiful people in their games: it is because sex does in fact sell better.
A pretty good guess. But it also works in other parts of the world where sex isn't such a big taboo. That is mostly because while most people indulge in porn, they don't always want to just see everything. There's an element of teasing involved. Sometimes subtle references to sexuality can be a lot more engaging than a set of big boobs in the middle of the screen.Ephraim J. Witchwood said:
One reason is the interface between biology and buying behaviour. A decent article on sex and advertising/buying decisions can be found here [http://public.wsu.edu/~taflinge/sex.html]. In short, if you can put an attractive female on the game cover, more men will be interested in it - it's a short-cut to the male hind-brain - and buying decisions are often that simple. This is taken to an extreme with certin free-to-play web games, which use attractive women in the banner ads, but don't feature such characters in the games.
There is also a trend on visual media of all types (film, tv, graphic novels) to portray characters with positive (Western) sexual characteristics. How many ugly people are there in films, on TV, in the last superhero book you bought (that aren't villains)? Perhaps this is simply an expression of the fact that beautiful people are more successful, and we all would prefer to be successful, and that most media panders to that wish-fulfilment as much as it does straightfoward sex appeal (if it is, indeed, straight forward).
As much as we might say we would approve of visual media being more honest about the extremely broad spectrum of human attractiveness, statistically, as a society, we buy into beautiful people more readily.
I live in a small village, but had to walk through London a few days ago - brilliant sunshine - tens of thousands of people on the streets - and I was in awe at the range of 'ugly' on show. I realised that, for the most part, I am looking at people in the media, not on the street. The vast majority of faces I see are good looking men and women. When you actually look at people in a crowd, it's extraordinary how narrow the visual media is in portraying real people.
As a confirmed ugly myself, it was rather comforting. However - nobody should use my face or body in a game. No-one would buy it. And I guess that's the point I'm making.
There is also a trend on visual media of all types (film, tv, graphic novels) to portray characters with positive (Western) sexual characteristics. How many ugly people are there in films, on TV, in the last superhero book you bought (that aren't villains)? Perhaps this is simply an expression of the fact that beautiful people are more successful, and we all would prefer to be successful, and that most media panders to that wish-fulfilment as much as it does straightfoward sex appeal (if it is, indeed, straight forward).
As much as we might say we would approve of visual media being more honest about the extremely broad spectrum of human attractiveness, statistically, as a society, we buy into beautiful people more readily.
I live in a small village, but had to walk through London a few days ago - brilliant sunshine - tens of thousands of people on the streets - and I was in awe at the range of 'ugly' on show. I realised that, for the most part, I am looking at people in the media, not on the street. The vast majority of faces I see are good looking men and women. When you actually look at people in a crowd, it's extraordinary how narrow the visual media is in portraying real people.
As a confirmed ugly myself, it was rather comforting. However - nobody should use my face or body in a game. No-one would buy it. And I guess that's the point I'm making.
you just don't understand advertising, no offence or nothing I just study the media n general things in that sorta field so I get why they do it n its really simple
If you put a hot chick on the cover of a game people will look at the girl therfore look at the game the longer they look at the game the more likely they are to remember it.
since the adverage gamer tends to be in a age group where hormones are pumping and are male that is why they use women, it is the most likely thing to catch your eye. Its all about the market regardless of whether you feel it makes you horney your hardwired to notice at the very least and that extra few seconds of noticing make it that much more likely you will remember that title over others.
If you put a hot chick on the cover of a game people will look at the girl therfore look at the game the longer they look at the game the more likely they are to remember it.
since the adverage gamer tends to be in a age group where hormones are pumping and are male that is why they use women, it is the most likely thing to catch your eye. Its all about the market regardless of whether you feel it makes you horney your hardwired to notice at the very least and that extra few seconds of noticing make it that much more likely you will remember that title over others.
I follow Christ too. The price for eternal life was already paid for, what's all this about you paying it with not boning a girl before you put a ring on her?StormShaun said:
I feel you're confusing a point here, let me fill you in on something; advertisers and artists whom incorporate sexual appeal into ads or characters don't intend for it's use as masturbation material.Eric the Orange said:
See, "Sex Sells" is a concept that aims to target male and female emotional connections to sex and direct them towards a product. This works because of a hormone present in humans known as Dopamine, which invokes feelings of pleasure and excitement and is released during emotionally rewarding activity. Or, as this snippet from Wikipedia puts it:
"Dopamine is commonly associated with the reward system of the brain, providing feelings of enjoyment and reinforcement to motivate a person proactively to perform certain activities. Dopamine is released by rewarding experiences such as food, sex, drugs, and neutral stimuli that become associated with them."
So when an Ad uses sex what it's trying to do is cause your brain to produce Dopamine in relation to the product, that way when you see it at the store your brain recognizes it as something that relates to a rewarding situation and tricks your mind into thinking it's the product.
For characters in games it's at a basic level the same way. Good character design goes a long way in making a character likable, and Sex appeal aims to double down on that likeability by targeting a universal or cultural Dopamine activator and drawing a connection between the emotional excitement and the character.
So really, it's never been about the sex. Sex is just the easiest, and universal way (cultural differences aside) to get the desired result. You may not hear every designer saying it like this, but that's the underlining science behind it. Hope that helps you understand this concept better.
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Edit: In fact, this is pretty much why Nostalgia works as well. Playing Super Mario World as a kid was such a rewarding experience your brain can't help but produce Dopamine whenever you see, hear, or play anything related to the series.
There was also studies done involving the Pepsi Challenge, an original ad campaign by Pepsi to see which brand of Coke they preferred. Separate from the ads, obviously, it was found that in blind taste tests the results were in Pepsi's favor. Show the subjects the labels during testing though and suddenly Coca-cola was a favorable one. What happened was that the person's emotional connection to the brand tricked their brain into thinking coke tasted better even if in the blind test they chose Pepsi.
Sex in advertisement does work, but it's not supposed to be the sole reason people buy a product. If an ad has an attractive woman on the it means your more likely to look at the ad or pay attention to the ad, which is what advertisers want.
As for Agarest, the game is partially a dating sim as well as being thematically similar to typical shounen manga, so it's content makes sense. In Japan that sort of genre of manga, which usually has a lot of softcore sexuality, is pretty popular (Love Hina or Video Girl AI for example.)
As for Agarest, the game is partially a dating sim as well as being thematically similar to typical shounen manga, so it's content makes sense. In Japan that sort of genre of manga, which usually has a lot of softcore sexuality, is pretty popular (Love Hina or Video Girl AI for example.)
All right, I understand what you're saying now. Though I don't think I really have anything else to add.Eric the Orange said:
I should have edited Dragon Age out of that and used a game that was more true to what I was saying, if you'll notice in my example of games that don't feature hyper-sexualization of females I did put Dragon Age with an exception being to Morrigan.xXxJessicaxXx said:Errr no... Actually Dragon Age was suggested by most women on the Elder Scrolls page (while talking about armour in Skyrim) for having the most suitable looking (mostly concerning leather) armour for women. It was workable armour but it also looked feminine.shrekfan246 said:
You, sir or ma'am, made me laugh.Ephraim J. Witchwood said:C'mon...shrekfan246 said:
This is the one I really want to actually comment on. I really just want to skip over your entire first paragraph, because even setting aside the fact that sure, men typically EDIT: [can be] physically more powerful than women, the way you phrased it is incredibly sexist (hopefully you're not trying to be sexist and just accidentally came across as such; that's what I'll assume, at least). Just because something usually happens doesn't mean there aren't exceptions and, in fact, exceptions are usually what prove something true.Jordi said:
The outfits I was referring to are Sophitia and Ivy from Soul Caliber. http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/02/09/testing-gendered-battle-gear/
I won't argue that light suits that don't offer protection are bad for martial arts, but...an outfit that falls apart during a fight? That's pretty bad. ...in fact, depending on your tastes, that could almost be considered porn.
As for men being sexualized, there's a difference. Admittedly it can be difficult to spot if you're not looking for it: Female characters are designed with sex appeal in mind - Men are designed with physical fitness in mind. I really hope I don't have to explain the difference here. In fighting games they are usually designed equally horribly, yes, but in most other games it's simply become a trope that the males should be handsome and muscular and the women should be curvy and seductive. Again, exceptions abound all over the place and I'm sure you could throw ten of them at me on the drop of a hat, but my point still stands. Usually male characters are not designed with sexual appeal in mind. And while it does happen less often than it used to, female characters are still frequently designed with sexual appeal in mind.
You provide an interesting argument. I suppose I've somehow managed to avoid all of the gay-for-Dante that's been around. Is it confined to DeviantArt or not? I just want to be sure that I won't accidentally run into any...suggestive pictures of Dante hugging his sword in a manner that isn't exactly safe.believer258 said:
Nevermind decided I don't want an argument.
I think I stand by my earlier opinion that men who are sexualised aren't treated as badly as women that are.
I think I stand by my earlier opinion that men who are sexualised aren't treated as badly as women that are.
I personally don't mind it. The only thing that annoys me is that mostly all females in games are sex objects that have no personality. Now, if they were portrayed with personalities and were more than just pretty looking, I really wouldn't care if they were portrayed sexy or not.
I am not saying all the females in games have to have personalities, but you know, just make some of them more than T&A and maybe I would pay more attention to them. I mean, all my favorite game characters are male. That is because the males have more personality and are more likable (OK, I do also find it easier to like male characters, I tend to have soft spots for them).
Although, I don't think it is bad to objectify sometimes. Heck, even I do it. Even I have been persuaded to buy games because of eye candy. So it's not just males who fall for this trap lol! And I do think male characters in games can be sexualized, sometimes on purpose, or sometimes maybe not intended for the females, but they are.
But perhaps I see it because I am straight. It's just usually not as easily spotted as with the females. Men can be sexualized without having to wear skimpy or tight clothing (but sometimes skimpy or tight clothing helps too, and I have seen that in games with the male characters, obviously that is intended to sexulize!).
Edit: Oh yes, another thing. I prefer to see/watch main characters that are visually appealing. Idk, it is just easier on the eyes for me. So seeing attractive males and females is something I do like in games.
I am not saying all the females in games have to have personalities, but you know, just make some of them more than T&A and maybe I would pay more attention to them. I mean, all my favorite game characters are male. That is because the males have more personality and are more likable (OK, I do also find it easier to like male characters, I tend to have soft spots for them).
Although, I don't think it is bad to objectify sometimes. Heck, even I do it. Even I have been persuaded to buy games because of eye candy. So it's not just males who fall for this trap lol! And I do think male characters in games can be sexualized, sometimes on purpose, or sometimes maybe not intended for the females, but they are.
But perhaps I see it because I am straight. It's just usually not as easily spotted as with the females. Men can be sexualized without having to wear skimpy or tight clothing (but sometimes skimpy or tight clothing helps too, and I have seen that in games with the male characters, obviously that is intended to sexulize!).
Edit: Oh yes, another thing. I prefer to see/watch main characters that are visually appealing. Idk, it is just easier on the eyes for me. So seeing attractive males and females is something I do like in games.
Err, no, exceptions have never proven any rule. That saying is wrong. But that is of course not the point.shrekfan246 said:
As for being sexist: I believe that the truth cannot be sexist (or racist or anything). This often bothers me when discussing things like this and stuff like the IQ of different races, groups, genders, whatever. It is not the fault of the person stating a fact that the world is the way it is. Now, I'm not arrogant enough to say that what I said is actually 100% the truth. I don't have the data for that, so I could be wrong. But what I was stating was not purely based on prejudice or the vague desire for men and women to be equal, but on my actual experience in the dojo and the knowledge that men have several obvious physical advantages compared to women.
But I want to go back to what you said about exceptions. Not every rule or statement has them. There are obviously many exceptions to the statement "women cannot beat the average man". But there are no exceptions to the statement "no woman can beat the world's strongest man". I hope anyone can see that. In fact, I think that there is a large group of men that could all beat the strongest woman, that is much, much larger than the character rosters in video games.
So if you take a group of the world's strongest men (as any video game does), then based on what I think I know about the world, I would strongly suspect that if any woman were to fight one of them, she would sorely lose no matter what she was wearing.
I think that is the thing: every once in a while you will hear a story about a woman who is able to beat some of the men at her own martial arts club. I think that just means that the woman is exceptional, while those men are not. But if you take a group of the world's strongest men, things change.
These are all statements about what is realistic (according to me), though, and realism is generally not the most important thing in games. I absolutely want to see women in them, if only for the variety. I also want the characters to jump high and knock each other back a couple yards with a hard blow. But "it's not realistic that she would be able to beat that man in that outfit" is a statement about realism, and then I think that the outfit is not the main thing making that statement unrealistic.
That was a funny video, and although that doesn't really prove anything, I will absolutely give you that those outfits were completely impractical in order to look good/sexy. I don't know if it is at bad as it seems for hand-to-hand combat though if they would just use better quality (especially for the shoes). I think Sophitia's outfit can be "fixed" by wearing a (sports) bra. Obviously the top might still get messed up (very much like the gi/dobok from many martial arts). Ivy's outfit looks very uncomfortable, but I think the main problem is the heels.shrekfan246 said:
Sophitia also reminded me of the fact that story can also play some role here. Her cleavage is too deep and she needs to wear a bra, but other than that I have seen women walk around in similar dresses. If the story says "she was preparing for the tournament and decided that this would be the best outfit to fight in" it's a little odd. But if she was somehow rushed, or the fights are unexpected, it makes a little more sense that she would be wearing that. Again, I have no real excuse for Ivy though (maybe she was in the middle of an S&M session?).
Also, I see this game has weapons. That changes things. First of all because weapons are a great equalizer in terms of who stands a chance against who, and second because protection is much more important. So in fact, those outfits are both pretty dumb in the context of the game.
I think I agree somewhat, but I don't know if the difference between sexiness and fitness is that clearly cut. I agree that women are created mainly with aesthetics in mind, but I'm not sure that the same isn't true for men. The thing is, if they would create those men with the same mindset that they use to create the women. Would they look very different from what we are seeing now?shrekfan246 said:
I strongly suspect that visuals often play the most important role in the design of characters of both genders, but that it is less obvious with men. One reason for that is that the traits that are found attractive in men are actually pretty useful for the types of things that most video game characters have to do. Second is that the designers have a little more freedom when designing attractive males compared to attractive females, since ideas about male attractiveness are much more divergent while everybody pretty much agrees on what makes women attractive[footnote]http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-06/wfu-ra062609.php[/footnote]. This might lead to a situation where the attractiveness of the men doesn't really stand out, because it looks right for the part. Since attractive women basically need to be young, blond and have large breasts[footnote]http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200706/ten-politically-incorrect-truths-about-human-nature[/footnote] it may well stand out more because there is less variety, and those traits may not make a lot of sense for the role/character of each woman.
I think that these are interesting alternative explanations, but "sex sells", especially to men[footnote]http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200706/ten-politically-incorrect-truths-about-human-nature?page=5[/footnote][footnote]http://www.greatestlook.com/info/beauty-brain.htm[/footnote], is probably the number one driving force, in addition to the mostly male developers creating what they themselves like to see.
Well, sex is a natural part of life, and hence there's obviously a place for implementing it in video game stories as well. Not necessarily in the simplistic pornographic sense of it being there only to invoke arousal - which doesn't bother me in the least, but doesn't add much to the story either - but also as a(nother) way characters can reinforce, alter, or reveal others sides of their relationships, or as something that can help drive the plot forward.
As for it being used in marketing games, that's little different from pretty much every other product which is (also) aimed at an adult demographic you can think off. Sex sells, and hence it would be foolish of companies not to make use of it in their advertising.
And when mixing sex in with gaming results in hilarious stuff like this [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/95937-This-Is-the-Best-Trailer-for-a-Japanese-Porn-Game-Ever] coming on the market, then it really can't be that bad.
As for it being used in marketing games, that's little different from pretty much every other product which is (also) aimed at an adult demographic you can think off. Sex sells, and hence it would be foolish of companies not to make use of it in their advertising.
And when mixing sex in with gaming results in hilarious stuff like this [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/95937-This-Is-the-Best-Trailer-for-a-Japanese-Porn-Game-Ever] coming on the market, then it really can't be that bad.