Senator calls for gambling legistaion against CS:GO

[DudeistBelieve]

I'm sorry but... these are skins were talking about, right?

They have no baring on the gameplay whatsoever?

Look I understand wanting a character to look a certain way, but it's not like I've gone out and bought Loot Crates for Overwatch.

 

[Trunkage]

I'm sorry but... these are skins were talking about, right?

They have no baring on the gameplay whatsoever?

Look I understand wanting a character to look a certain way, but it's not like I've gone out and bought Loot Crates for Overwatch.

I not quite sure exactly what your point is. I assume you mean that you think its fine to gamble them because they don't affect they game. Yes that's true, they don't effect the game.

The problem is that its now developing its own trust fiat system, like currencies. So have a think about any money you might have in your wallet/ purse. That has no value, except the made up value society proscribes it. The number 1 is actually just a picture. We have over the year ascribed value to it.

These skins have been ascribed a certain value by the market and can be sold as such. I mean, you cant play in a casino with real money. You have to play with chips. The skins are just like chips, that you need to cash out.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I'm sorry but... these are skins were talking about, right?

They have no baring on the gameplay whatsoever?

Look I understand wanting a character to look a certain way, but it's not like I've gone out and bought Loot Crates for Overwatch.

I not quite sure exactly what your point is. I assume you mean that you think its fine to gamble them because they don't affect they game. Yes that's true, they don't effect the game.

The problem is that its now developing its own trust fiat system, like currencies. So have a think about any money you might have in your wallet/ purse. That has no value, except the made up value society proscribes it. The number 1 is actually just a picture. We have over the year ascribed value to it.

These skins have been ascribed a certain value by the market and can be sold as such. I mean, you cant play in a casino with real money. You have to play with chips. The skins are just like chips, that you need to cash out.

No I mean, I don't understand what the fuss is about anyway. Why do they have any kind of value beyond being just stupid chuffa to make your character look a certain way?

 

[EvilRoy]

I'm sorry but... these are skins were talking about, right?

They have no baring on the gameplay whatsoever?

Look I understand wanting a character to look a certain way, but it's not like I've gone out and bought Loot Crates for Overwatch.

I not quite sure exactly what your point is. I assume you mean that you think its fine to gamble them because they don't affect they game. Yes that's true, they don't effect the game.

The problem is that its now developing its own trust fiat system, like currencies. So have a think about any money you might have in your wallet/ purse. That has no value, except the made up value society proscribes it. The number 1 is actually just a picture. We have over the year ascribed value to it.

These skins have been ascribed a certain value by the market and can be sold as such. I mean, you cant play in a casino with real money. You have to play with chips. The skins are just like chips, that you need to cash out.

No I mean, I don't understand what the fuss is about anyway. Why do they have any kind of value beyond being just stupid chuffa to make your character look a certain way?

In this situation it looks more like the issue is about what is being done than what is being used to do it. Like, people are using the skins as if they were poker chips, and the instant you can do that in a standardized form it becomes organized gambling. Gambling is heavily regulated in a lot of places, so the instant anything starts to look like it is going that way you either get the cops called or you get licensed, taxed and regulated.

Its a discussion that has been had at lower levels in Canada, and it may work its way up the ladder as time goes on. If you play TF2 and bet hats on matches, if those hats have an agreed-upon real world cash value, and if those hats can be cashed out for that value, you have gambling with stupid looking graphics. No different than an online poker program, except you aren't licensed and you aren't paying taxes so its a federal offense and fraud all at once.

 

[Sonicron]

It was bound to happen, really. This may end up sucking badly for games, but it's Valve's fault, not the senator's. He's trying to get rid of gambling, which is a good thing - as long as he doesn't overreach, that is. Valve can say they didn't encourage this whole gambling thing all they want, but the fact is their fucking lazy-ass hands-off approach to it made the damage possible in the first place, so it's their damn fault. Well done, you monkeys.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I'm sorry but... these are skins were talking about, right?

They have no baring on the gameplay whatsoever?

Look I understand wanting a character to look a certain way, but it's not like I've gone out and bought Loot Crates for Overwatch.

I not quite sure exactly what your point is. I assume you mean that you think its fine to gamble them because they don't affect they game. Yes that's true, they don't effect the game.

The problem is that its now developing its own trust fiat system, like currencies. So have a think about any money you might have in your wallet/ purse. That has no value, except the made up value society proscribes it. The number 1 is actually just a picture. We have over the year ascribed value to it.

These skins have been ascribed a certain value by the market and can be sold as such. I mean, you cant play in a casino with real money. You have to play with chips. The skins are just like chips, that you need to cash out.

No I mean, I don't understand what the fuss is about anyway. Why do they have any kind of value beyond being just stupid chuffa to make your character look a certain way?

In this situation it looks more like the issue is about what is being done than what is being used to do it. Like, people are using the skins as if they were poker chips, and the instant you can do that in a standardized form it becomes organized gambling. Gambling is heavily regulated in a lot of places, so the instant anything starts to look like it is going that way you either get the cops called or you get licensed, taxed and regulated.

Its a discussion that has been had at lower levels in Canada, and it may work its way up the ladder as time goes on. If you play TF2 and bet hats on matches, if those hats have an agreed-upon real world cash value, and if those hats can be cashed out for that value, you have gambling with stupid looking graphics. No different than an online poker program, except you aren't licensed and you aren't paying taxes so its a federal offense and fraud all at once.

This is a bit of education for me, but how does something like a hat in team fortress 2 get value in real world currency? Artificial Scarcity? How cool it looks?

 

[EvilRoy]

This is a bit of education for me, but how does something like a hat in team fortress 2 get value in real world currency? Artificial Scarcity? How cool it looks?

You basically have it nailed down as a combination of scarcity and coolness. I know it sounds dumb, but I played a lot of TF2, and the 'hat market' was basically controlled by presumed coolness and rarity of a given item. I believe an unusual flaming captains hat or something like that somehow garnered an agreed-upon cash value of thousands of dollars based on there only being a couple of them and a large enough clique of people agreeing that is was the coolest hat.

Its made significantly worse by introducing things you can purchase on the game - in this case keys worth about 2 bucks - because now everything that has a perceived cash value can be translated into keys which have a fixed, defined cash value. A hat believed to be worth 50 bucks has a value of 25 keys. Buy the hat with keys, sell the keys.

 

[K12]

A politician calls for a crack down on a video game because it's immoral... and I'm on the senator's side. (he might not be going about it the best way but I support the general sentiment).

This is unsettling new territory.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

This is a bit of education for me, but how does something like a hat in team fortress 2 get value in real world currency? Artificial Scarcity? How cool it looks?

You basically have it nailed down as a combination of scarcity and coolness. I know it sounds dumb, but I played a lot of TF2, and the 'hat market' was basically controlled by presumed coolness and rarity of a given item. I believe an unusual flaming captains hat or something like that somehow garnered an agreed-upon cash value of thousands of dollars based on there only being a couple of them and a large enough clique of people agreeing that is was the coolest hat.

Its made significantly worse by introducing things you can purchase on the game - in this case keys worth about 2 bucks - because now everything that has a perceived cash value can be translated into keys which have a fixed, defined cash value. A hat believed to be worth 50 bucks has a value of 25 keys. Buy the hat with keys, sell the keys.

Theres something very high school about that fact that *shudder*

God, I wouldn't want to be a sheep following into that mess. Not that I'm not capable of being a sheep, mind you.

 

[EvilRoy]

This is a bit of education for me, but how does something like a hat in team fortress 2 get value in real world currency? Artificial Scarcity? How cool it looks?

You basically have it nailed down as a combination of scarcity and coolness. I know it sounds dumb, but I played a lot of TF2, and the 'hat market' was basically controlled by presumed coolness and rarity of a given item. I believe an unusual flaming captains hat or something like that somehow garnered an agreed-upon cash value of thousands of dollars based on there only being a couple of them and a large enough clique of people agreeing that is was the coolest hat.

Its made significantly worse by introducing things you can purchase on the game - in this case keys worth about 2 bucks - because now everything that has a perceived cash value can be translated into keys which have a fixed, defined cash value. A hat believed to be worth 50 bucks has a value of 25 keys. Buy the hat with keys, sell the keys.

Theres something very high school about that fact that *shudder*

God, I wouldn't want to be a sheep following into that mess. Not that I'm not capable of being a sheep, mind you.

What spooks me is how effectively savvy 'investors' or experienced gamblers can screw everyone so easily. In TF2 there was a group of people inflating the value of a hat by hoarding them, and old fashion horse race gamblers know exactly how to bet to hurt the house and the other gamblers no matter what the outcome of the match to boost themselves.

I don't mind when its adults getting screwed in an adult world, but this is 14 year olds standing literally no chance against experienced, savvy adults.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

This is a bit of education for me, but how does something like a hat in team fortress 2 get value in real world currency? Artificial Scarcity? How cool it looks?

You basically have it nailed down as a combination of scarcity and coolness. I know it sounds dumb, but I played a lot of TF2, and the 'hat market' was basically controlled by presumed coolness and rarity of a given item. I believe an unusual flaming captains hat or something like that somehow garnered an agreed-upon cash value of thousands of dollars based on there only being a couple of them and a large enough clique of people agreeing that is was the coolest hat.

Its made significantly worse by introducing things you can purchase on the game - in this case keys worth about 2 bucks - because now everything that has a perceived cash value can be translated into keys which have a fixed, defined cash value. A hat believed to be worth 50 bucks has a value of 25 keys. Buy the hat with keys, sell the keys.

Theres something very high school about that fact that *shudder*

God, I wouldn't want to be a sheep following into that mess. Not that I'm not capable of being a sheep, mind you.

What spooks me is how effectively savvy 'investors' or experienced gamblers can screw everyone so easily. In TF2 there was a group of people inflating the value of a hat by hoarding them, and old fashion horse race gamblers know exactly how to bet to hurt the house and the other gamblers no matter what the outcome of the match to boost themselves.

I don't mind when its adults getting screwed in an adult world, but this is 14 year olds standing literally no chance against experienced, savvy adults.

Amazing. More things change, more things stay the same.

I just have this vision in my head of a kid in the 1930s with like that newsboy cap getting swindle by some guy flipping a coin.

years later, settings different, but it's still the same thing.

ya gotta laugh, this fucking world man. crazy.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

Ya, this has gotten well out of hand. It's not just the SC:GO betting pages. So many games are using down right abusive money milking plans. Games have been left more or less unregulated under the promise that games would regulate themselves (see ESRB) that has been slipping. If no one steps up in gameing, then people outside of gameing will do it... likely not well.

 

[Leg End]

Hell, I suppose it's a difference in ideology, but when it comes to gambling, I think it's better to protect the idiots to a certain extent rather than letting them be the victims of their own stupidity. When it comes to most lawmaking I'm more liberal than that, but the damage caused by people gambling themselves into complete destitution just seems worse than the decrease in freedom gambling regulation bring with them. Because those people usually aren't just damaging themselves, but also people around them, such as their families. Which is why I think a form of "hidden" gambling like this (although the actual mechanics of the gambling are almost identical to a slot-machine) should be controlled in the same way that other online gambling is.

The general issue is that we can only do so much to stop stupid people from doing stupid things. With more legal avenues you can prevent some of the major horror stories while not restricting the freedoms of others. We're going from betting to general chance here.

Holy hell, I was not expecting to see some rational responses to this whole fiasco.

Rational? I must be losing my edge.

Ya, this has gotten well out of hand. It's not just the SC:GO betting pages. So many games are using down right abusive money milking plans. Games have been left more or less unregulated under the promise that games would regulate themselves (see ESRB) that has been slipping. If no one steps up in gameing, then people outside of gameing will do it... likely not well.

The thing is, the senator didn't mention anything about the money milking.

I think everyone here is on a totally different page. In terms of regulation, we're talking about people betting on match outcomes like you would any competition, not the glorified trading card packs and I think everyone is losing sight of it.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

Hell, I suppose it's a difference in ideology, but when it comes to gambling, I think it's better to protect the idiots to a certain extent rather than letting them be the victims of their own stupidity. When it comes to most lawmaking I'm more liberal than that, but the damage caused by people gambling themselves into complete destitution just seems worse than the decrease in freedom gambling regulation bring with them. Because those people usually aren't just damaging themselves, but also people around them, such as their families. Which is why I think a form of "hidden" gambling like this (although the actual mechanics of the gambling are almost identical to a slot-machine) should be controlled in the same way that other online gambling is.

The general issue is that we can only do so much to stop stupid people from doing stupid things. With more legal avenues you can prevent some of the major horror stories while not restricting the freedoms of others. We're going from betting to general chance here.

Holy hell, I was not expecting to see some rational responses to this whole fiasco.

Rational? I must be losing my edge.

Ya, this has gotten well out of hand. It's not just the SC:GO betting pages. So many games are using down right abusive money milking plans. Games have been left more or less unregulated under the promise that games would regulate themselves (see ESRB) that has been slipping. If no one steps up in gameing, then people outside of gameing will do it... likely not well.

The thing is, the senator didn't mention anything about the money milking.

I think everyone here is on a totally different page. In terms of regulation, we're talking about people betting on match outcomes like you would any competition, not the glorified trading card packs and I think everyone is losing sight of it.

The lotto stuff wasn't based on match outcomes. It was a random die roll. (Though there are other betting pages based on match outcomes. All of it should go.) Though it is fair what you said. The issue is more the gambling pages that take advantage of the loot boxes, but I see issues with the loot boxes themselves.

 

[viranimus]

Valve are seriously fucking over the entire industry with their hands off approach. .

But that is valves business model and modus operandi. Most people simply refuse to see it. In fact I sometimes question if even the people at valve realize all the damage they do to not only this industry but all free market commerce.

 

[Leg End]

The lotto stuff wasn't based on match outcomes. It was a random die roll.

So, real money or item wager for lottery winnings? I'm not sure how that works. Can you give an example?

(Though there are other betting pages based on match outcomes. All of it should go.)

Why?

Though it is fair what you said. The issue is more the gambling pages that take advantage of the loot boxes, but I see issues with the loot boxes themselves.

Can you explain to me how exactly they take advantage of them? I have no idea how they can.

Again, I'm comparing this all to similar things such as EVE Bet and the like.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

The lotto stuff wasn't based on match outcomes. It was a random die roll.

So, real money or item wager for lottery winnings? I'm not sure how that works. Can you give an example?

(Though there are other betting pages based on match outcomes. All of it should go.)

Why?

Though it is fair what you said. The issue is more the gambling pages that take advantage of the loot boxes, but I see issues with the loot boxes themselves.

Can you explain to me how exactly they take advantage of them? I have no idea how they can.

Again, I'm comparing this all to similar things such as EVE Bet and the like.

In game items. You would put up such and such in skins, a number would be rolled and you would win or lose based on chance. (And you know the page would take some off the top for themselves.) Betting off of games is the same as betting off a die roll. Both are games of chance. The scarcity and portability is what gives these skins value. You couldn't have a CS:GO Lotto without the lockboxes. (Or if the lockboxes didn't cost money, or if they were fair. Basically if they didn't enforce the value of the skins then they wouldn't have value.)

 

[Leg End]

In game items. You would put up such and such in skins, a number would be rolled and you would win or lose based on chance.

So, direct person to person betting?

(And you know the page would take some off the top for themselves.)

Of course.

Betting off of games is the same as betting off a die roll. Both are games of chance.

Not quite the same as you can make an educated guess from previous matches and make a guess on who would win.

The scarcity and portability is what gives these skins value.

Essentially, albeit no tangible value.

You couldn't have a CS:GO Lotto without the lockboxes. (Or if the lockboxes didn't cost money, or if they were fair. Basically if they didn't enforce the value of the skins then they wouldn't have value.)

So, card packs? This all just seems like a lot of hubbub on Valve being greedy and people gambling with virtual goods, just now with an idiot senator thinking he should stick the cold defiling hand of government into the mix and that it'll be better, with people supporting this because any regulation must be good regulation.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

In game items. You would put up such and such in skins, a number would be rolled and you would win or lose based on chance.

So, direct person to person betting?

(And you know the page would take some off the top for themselves.)

Of course.

Betting off of games is the same as betting off a die roll. Both are games of chance.

Not quite the same as you can make an educated guess from previous matches and make a guess on who would win.

The scarcity and portability is what gives these skins value.

Essentially, albeit no tangible value.

You couldn't have a CS:GO Lotto without the lockboxes. (Or if the lockboxes didn't cost money, or if they were fair. Basically if they didn't enforce the value of the skins then they wouldn't have value.)

So, card packs? This all just seems like a lot of hubbub on Valve being greedy and people gambling with virtual goods, just now with an idiot senator thinking he should stick the cold defiling hand of government into the mix and that it'll be better, with people supporting this because any regulation must be good regulation.

People made real money off of it.

 

[Leg End]

People made real money off of it.

Like anything else someone wants and is willing to give things for.
I really don't see an issue here apart from the sites violating the API's terms of use.